[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

Combo match ups might be a little easier to reason out:
ANT- Tendrils, unless they board in goblins (and they might but I've seen players not do this against me), it's their only win-con. Scoop to inevitability.
TES- Burning Wish, there is probably at least 1 empty the warrens main, but burning wish cuts off a lot of the game plan.
Reanimator- Exhume (or just a fatty that's hard to deal with like tidespout/grave titan but I'm sticking with exhume), reanimate hurts, and animate dead dies to pridemage/abrupt decay giving us more game against it (and a reanimator pilot will probably cut these first for more disruption).

Then things get weird with fairer decks:
Delver decks can be all over the place, maybe brainstorm because that will hit. Leovold if you've seen him is probably a nice target.
D&T?- Mom? SFM? This deck frustrates me no matter what I'm playing *Kanye Shrug*.
Burn- Probably not casting this, although fireblast might be a nice thing to not worry about.
Eldrazi- Might be right to name Reality Smasher. I can usually find myself dealing with TKS, but the 5/5 trample make the team 5/5 is hard to cope with.


Anyways, if anyone has input on various match ups I would appreciate entertaining the thought.

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Boarding in goblins doesn't happen much against us because we play Pernicious Deed.
Against Reanimator I normally name Griselbrand. After Grisel they can make Iona (who we can potentially race or remove) or Elesh Norn (who is a slow clock and we can probably just kill). Grave Titan just gets chumped for three turns and then you have the mana to Deed it away, or otherwise gets removed. Tidespout is good, but if they haven't also got Griselbrand they probably aren't casting that many spells immediately and it's no harder to remove than anything else.

Delver - depends what threats they've made. Naming Lightning Bolt against red builds gives you a lot more security. If you're casting it on turn two or something, taking Goyfs removes a lot of their powerful threats. I don't know why you boarded this spell in here though.
D&T - Again, you don't want to board Games effects in here, but I'd be tempted to say Phyrexian Revoker or Flickerwisp, since they're two of the better cards against our deck.
Burn - yeah, Fireblast is the way to go. I could see maybe naming Sulfuric Vortex if I had a lot of lifegain available.
Eldrazi - TKS is more of a problem imo. It comes down way earlier and takes the interaction you want. 5/5 mimics just get blocked by explorers, then you untap and Deed their stuff.

All four of those I wouldn't sideboard into extraction effects against, though.

I'm in the middle of an online league with this, for kicks and giggles.

17
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

21
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Intuition
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Smokestack
1 Garruk Relentless

22
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ghost Quarter

side:
2 Pulse of Murasa
3 Lost Legacy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Golgari Charm
1 To the Slaughter
1 Negate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Nissa, Vital Force


Really wanted to try the Tracker/Stax combo, and felt that Strix worked well with that. Replaces itself, blocks, sacs to whatever. Intuition seems like a pretty efficient way to fit in a Loam effect without having to add a ton of slots for Crucibles and excess Wastelands and such. Could probably argue for 3 Smokestack 3 Deed just so you can grab either with Intuition. Also wasn't sure about having Nissa or Garruk mainboard but both are great here. List is pretty low to the ground so I might go down to 21 lands.

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Originally Posted by square_two

I'm in the middle of an online league with this, for kicks and giggles.

17
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

21
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Intuition
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Smokestack
1 Garruk Relentless

22
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ghost Quarter

side:
2 Pulse of Murasa
3 Lost Legacy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Golgari Charm
1 To the Slaughter
1 Negate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Nissa, Vital Force

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How are you liking pulse of murasa in the side?
I have been playing a GB control list lately, and I think I like murasa.
The deck feels so much stronger than rhinos to be honest; it allows me to play the game in very different ways depending on the situation. The free wins you get vs RB reanimator, dredge GB depths and other nonsense are amazing: that's because crop rotation is always the best card to have in the opener in G1; in G2 it can be replaced by more appropriate sb cards depending on the match up.

"Weird options" I am playing:
-3 murasa in the side: GB, especially when you don't really play a lot of creatures, has no decent lifegain in the early game. Pulse not only is here to stabilise, but it also gives some late game value buying back a random tracker.
Burn and sometimes even delver can be tricky for GB, and 3 pulse of murasa make the burn match up a joke, in that match up they go along with the 3 md hymns very well in my experience.

-Titania. I have always despised the card, but now in this meta she is very good in my opinion. Good not only in the sense that she can win the game (any 5+cmc bomb can do it, really), but in the sense that she can do it very FAST. The "180^ the board state" potential of this card is very real.
Crop rotation is an additional sinergy for Titania, and sometimes for a topdecked in the late game tracker (I very rarely use crop rotation proactively to fetch a tower, I mostly use it as a late game card that fits very well the controlling approach of the deck. On top of that it gives game against all the unfair decks that are a nightmare in G1 for the aggro builds of this archetype).
To be honest I feel like I have been seeing a lot less bolts and more decays lately. Pretty much everyone and their mother seems to be playing BUG colors, and that means that titania may very well be one of the best finishers we can play at the moment (GSZ'able, even).

I haven't really missed white, ever.
I am seeing a lot less eldrazi around, and that was the main reason to play white for me. Sigarda is replaceable and 2 new nissas are more versatile win cons, they replaced sigarda in my decks.
I often read here that white is played because it gives us a chance against lands. In my opinion white doesn't change anything in that match up: a decent lands player is going to negate us white mana before making Lage: when I played rhino, the (very few) times I won against lands were the ones where I could deploy an early and uncontested DRS/Ooze, and that strategy is available in GB as well.

The real reason to play white, at least for me, will always be only the rhino. Until WotC bans terminus that guy is unplayable in a meta where miracles has a 21% (!!!!!!) presence.

I've honestly not played that much with Pulse of Murasa. Probably under 20 matches with having 2 in the side - and that is primarily with Dragon Fit. I think it pairs especially well with Strix (and Loam). Strix eating removal or blocking something well, and then later getting it back is just value. Definitely am considering going to 3 Pulse. Had a Burn matchup last night where Pulse did buy me a couple of turns (still died to Bolt+Blast after I landed a Titania though). Having another copy available could have easily led to a win.

Gaining 6 life against Lands is essentially the same as gaining 20 life :wink:

I've not been able to "get" anyone with it in Reanimator and such matchups, though I'm pretty sure I've seen Stryfo do it online.

Hi guys,

Ive been lurking around here for a little bit and I think the deck is extremely interesting I love a grindy deck and am looking for a home in legacy I think nic fit might be it. Having said that it seems that there are a TON of different builds floating around, Can someone help me with a list for someone just starting out with the archetype, playing online with a pretty limitless card pool so budget or card selections is no issues, and also with any resources you may have about playing that list or just the deck/archetype in general, any sideboard guides whatever anything is helpful, thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by yotrixxx

Hi guys,

Ive been lurking around here for a little bit and I think the deck is extremely interesting I love a grindy deck and am looking for a home in legacy I think nic fit might be it. Having said that it seems that there are a TON of different builds floating around, Can someone help me with a list for someone just starting out with the archetype, playing online with a pretty limitless card pool so budget or card selections is no issues, and also with any resources you may have about playing that list or just the deck/archetype in general, any sideboard guides whatever anything is helpful, thanks in advance!

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The primer on the first page of this thread is helpful.

I'd say the most 'solved' decks in the thread are Abzan midrange builds and Jund Sneak Attack. Nyx is getting there but I wouldn't recommend starting it and I'm not sure it's consistent enough. The bug builds have a ton of variance in them (they aren't as shackled to Zenith) which means there's a lot of different builds and I cna't confidently recommend any of them specifically. Straight GB might be looking strong again, but it's not in a state close to locked in yet. Scapeshift is just Sneak but worse right now probably.

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Originally Posted by square_two

I've honestly not played that much with Pulse of Murasa. Probably under 20 matches with having 2 in the side - and that is primarily with Dragon Fit. I think it pairs especially well with Strix (and Loam). Strix eating removal or blocking something well, and then later getting it back is just value. Definitely am considering going to 3 Pulse. Had a Burn matchup last night where Pulse did buy me a couple of turns (still died to Bolt+Blast after I landed a Titania though). Having another copy available could have easily led to a win.

Gaining 6 life against Lands is essentially the same as gaining 20 life :wink:

I've not been able to "get" anyone with it in Reanimator and such matchups, though I'm pretty sure I've seen Stryfo do it online.

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I have definitely done it at least one time against a reanimator guy. The ape was not pleased when griselbrand got counterspelled by a standard card.
Even though it felt awesome to get the insta rage quit concede out of a common standard legal card, I wouldn't lean heavily on murasa as a way to beat reanimape.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

The ape was not pleased when griselbrand got counterspelled by a standard card.

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I lol'd hard to this :laugh:

A friend who plays Scapewish gets many wins against reanimator by discarding them a fatty (so they put a weird and pleased look) and then wishing for Reanimate and stealing it (so their face wrinkles in disgust).

@Square_two It's nice to see I'm not the only one trying to make Intuition work. In my experience, what you said about having 3 Deeds is pretty big. One Deed is all it takes in some matchups. Have you tested Dark Depths combo in a similar build? I'm not being able to get in many matches so I'll try to gather data from other people to see their feelings on Intuition+DD. Let me know if you try it sometime, and keep us updated on how that league goes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

As a bit of a tangent:

Nic Fit players need to be consistent on cabal therapy, it's part of the "nice fit" after all, but that isn't the only spell we can find in our 75 that relies on knowing thy enemy. Sure, this will be deck dependent but if we were to resolve a slaughter games/lost legacy type of effect, what would you name for different match ups?

Combo match ups might be a little easier to reason out:
ANT- Tendrils, unless they board in goblins (and they might but I've seen players not do this against me), it's their only win-con. Scoop to inevitability.
TES- Burning Wish, there is probably at least 1 empty the warrens main, but burning wish cuts off a lot of the game plan.
Reanimator- Exhume (or just a fatty that's hard to deal with like tidespout/grave titan but I'm sticking with exhume), reanimate hurts, and animate dead dies to pridemage/abrupt decay giving us more game against it (and a reanimator pilot will probably cut these first for more disruption).

Then things get weird with fairer decks:
Delver decks can be all over the place, maybe brainstorm because that will hit. Leovold if you've seen him is probably a nice target.
D&T?- Mom? SFM? This deck frustrates me no matter what I'm playing *Kanye Shrug*.
Burn- Probably not casting this, although fireblast might be a nice thing to not worry about.
Eldrazi- Might be right to name Reality Smasher. I can usually find myself dealing with TKS, but the 5/5 trample make the team 5/5 is hard to cope with.


Anyways, if anyone has input on various match ups I would appreciate entertaining the thought.

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I'm not bringing in any slaughter gams effect against any of the fair decks other than miracales(mostly because there are have so many cards I want out of my deck) as they don't do anything. Every other deck I would say a slaughter games effect don't matter.

Against combo decks the name is usually obvious. Against reanimater I usually name griselbrand as drawing 7 cards is really hard to beat and they have multiple ways of re animating a dude and the other dudes are so much more beatable. For ANT always name tendrils as the goblins are so much easier to beat and I have no experience against TES but I think you name wish because that should be the only thing that gets tendrils.

Do you have any other decks you particularly want info on than the ones you listed?

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

@Square_two It's nice to see I'm not the only one trying to make Intuition work. In my experience, what you said about having 3 Deeds is pretty big. One Deed is all it takes in some matchups. Have you tested Dark Depths combo in a similar build? I'm not being able to get in many matches so I'll try to gather data from other people to see their feelings on Intuition+DD. Let me know if you try it sometime, and keep us updated on how that league goes!

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I've not tested Depths at all. I'm already wanting to go down to 21 lands and so I really doubt that Stage+Depths gets any slots alongside Smokestack. I think Ghost Quarter / Stronghold is all you would need in order to grind someone out. Intuition for Loam/Stage/Depths can take a while to assemble, especially against Wasteland decks.

More tuned list is probably closer to this (with 21 lands). Smokestack seems great against both fair decks + Miracles. Very poor against combo. Sideboard for this should require less Miracles hate than typical nic fit lists.

18
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

21
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Smokestack
1 Garruk Relentless

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mstephenson

I'm not bringing in any slaughter gams effect against any of the fair decks other than miracales(mostly because there are have so many cards I want out of my deck) as they don't do anything. Every other deck I would say a slaughter games effect don't matter.

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Miracles gets a lot easier (at least in the creature heavier going wide versions I play) if you extract Terminus. But in general I agree. Extraction cards work best when your opponent has few win conditions and losing one is a major setback. You don't want to extract something if your opponent can still easily win the game without it.

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Originally Posted by fireiced

Care to share your most updated list?

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4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter

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I've been away for a while. Not gonna lie though, this list looks fun as shit.

3 questions for you
1) Tireless Tracker's inclusion?
2) Removal that compliments 2 Decay, 3 Deed?
3) 4 Sneak Attacks vs 3?

1. I am biased against Tireless Tracker because from my experiences, he didn't contribute much. I think decks that abuse the land-dropping gameplan make him work. For Nic Fit (and especially Sneak-Fit), I can't help but think you're better off replacing him outright. Several months ago when Sneak-Fit was under the radar, some of the Nic Fit players ran Sidisi (who is downright stupid OP off a Sneak activation). Maybe Sidisi replaces Tracker, since you can setup the kill shot then and there OR just tutor for [insert answer to current board-state]. Maybe Tracker is replaced in the MD by Meren? Perhaps you can strategically go sideways by including 1x Magus of the Moon. Hear me out on this. Our meta hasn't changed (from the news and decklists I see). Magus is capable of just auto-winning against highly developed 3 and 4 colored decks. It also does damage against shit like Death and Taxes that benefit from extensive non-basics (port, wastes, karakas, cavern). On a side note, Magus can be "tutored" by Bellower he isn't drawn/found naturally.

2. I went back several pages for some points about L. Bolt vs Pfires + Grove. I'd love to hear others discuss how you compliment what I believe is a "lock" in 2 Decay/3 Deed. Pfires is SO goddamn grindy but did the card lose steam with 2017 fast aggro decks? Does it stop pyromancer and mentor? Perhaps 3x Sudden Demise (another wiper that eats our own Vets for R+1)? Demise scales very well over the course of the game but is less grindy than Pfires. On the other hand, a Demise for x=2 kills ~95% of creatures you'll see including TNN, a table of DnT/Maverick, multiple Delvers, a table of elves, etc. Going red is hedging your inevitable loss against a 20/20 Marit token, so that's a sunk cost. Both Pfires and Demise struggle against delve creatures like Anglur, etc.
Another idea is 0 red removal. Black has plenty of options to take care of business -- especially with the recent sets.

3. Do you feel you need 4 Sneaks or can you get away with 3? I ask because there's no way to brainstorm excess ones out of your hand and/or ponder-shuffle them away.

Sudden Demise doesn't kill TNN. Damage is prevented because of protection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yotrixxx

Hi guys,

Ive been lurking around here for a little bit and I think the deck is extremely interesting I love a grindy deck and am looking for a home in legacy I think nic fit might be it.

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If your into heavy grinding, you should check out PFire Jund, I think its still in my sig.
I'd say Junk has the most generic all round kind of playstyle that will give you the best "feel" of the deck in general. Junk is also the best choice to take into a "blind" meta imho.
Beyond that; Sneak, Nyx or whatever version have more specific playstyles / endgames.

thanks for the answers guys i was more looking for a specific list ive read the primer through and all the lists are from like 2011-14 I want to know im building something updated, it generally seems like abzan is the place to start, although i do love a grindy game so the pfire list calls to me a bit. How is the list that andrea mengucci recorded with a few weeks ago, the abzan one not that sultai planewalker mess. OR do any of you have a nice updated abzan list geared toward a blind/wide open meta.

thanks in advance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yotrixxx

thanks for the answers guys i was more looking for a specific list ive read the primer through and all the lists are from like 2011-14 I want to know im building something updated, it generally seems like abzan is the place to start, although i do love a grindy game so the pfire list calls to me a bit. How is the list that andrea mengucci recorded with a few weeks ago, the abzan one not that sultai planewalker mess. OR do any of you have a nice updated abzan list geared toward a blind/wide open meta.

thanks in advance

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?? The primer in this sub was written 2 months ago and contains recent lists. Arianrhod put in great work updating it. Are you referring to the old Nic Fit thread with old primer?

I would start with either Sneak Fit or classic Junk fit, both of which you will find plenty of examples within the last few pages. Basically either use Arianrhod or my own version of Sneak Fit - depends on whether you want to use PFire or not, and there are 2-3 flex spots in either list. Mengucci's list for Junk is a fine starting point as well.

Most every version of Nic Fit is grindy so you really won't be disappointed in that regard. The only exception is Sneak Fit which has some speed due to Sneak Attack -> followup Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Miracles gets a lot easier (at least in the creature heavier going wide versions I play) if you extract Terminus. But in general I agree. Extraction cards work best when your opponent has few win conditions and losing one is a major setback. You don't want to extract something if your opponent can still easily win the game without it.

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The only reason I bring it in against miracles is because there are so many bad cards to take out and even with the creature builds I usually took out a lot of them. But IMO the bigger thing about extracting jace from their deck is that you can now beat them with a pile of removal(esp if they are on mentor). Im also more scared of entreat than terminus because I feel like I can outgrind miracles once jace is gone so long as entreat/mentor is gone (this is super obnoxious when the run both for whatever reason)

Put some thoughts into reworking the Scapeshift list. I found the P-Fire engine to be too greedy and I wanted to include former staple Stormbreath Dragon as an alternative win condition.

2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon


4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Scapeshift
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Games
3 Pulse of Murasa
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm

Pretty straightforward with a rather simplified - wishless - sideboard. Depending on my testing I maybe will return to Pyroblast in the SB.

so just played my first game..... IM IN LOVE thats all really just felt like letting everyone know. i won which was also nice, 2-0 against a metalworker mud contraption