[DTB] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Dude I also love the list. Thanks for the report. I also played with Stifle and kind of liked it. Even though it is not doing well with YP because sometimes you want to play aggressive like T1 Delver T2 YP, mana denial plan in general is pretty good and you also have something against Storm. How good were 2 Spell Pierce main? Did you like it? Right now I think about cutting them for only playing Stifle because 8 counterspell and 3 Stifle is enough and to have 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning. This list:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

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Thanks you too for the quick reply! :)

However this is my currently list.
The differences between mine and your's are few but very significant.

Luca's deck:
1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Spell Pierce

Handsome's deck:
2 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Gitaxian Probe

Snapcaster is maybe the card that I like less in the list.
It's awsome in all Legacy control deck but in this build (with only 6 color lands) can't be really strong.
So I can thinking about a switch with the Lavamancer (1 free side slot, maybe 1 PoP)

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You have to play 4 Gitaxian Probe!! If you Probe your opponent T1 you can decide if you Stifle him or play Delver go or maybe Ponder to look for a counter spell. Gitaxian Probe is amazing to decide which is the right play, it synergises very well with all cards so you need to play 4 of them.

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Your opinion with GP is right!
It's OP and it can give us some information for doing well the first play of the match.
But I belive that a really good player could chose well without knows the opponent's hand.

Example:
We have an hand on T1 with Delver and Stifle.
Which play first?

1) I'm OTP and only one land
I will play Delver. I want a strong start!
I could stay open for Stifle on fetch but without another land (are you sure that you will draw it?) the situation could be the same on T2!
And I've lost a turn for (MAYBE!) denial a fetchland.
2) I'm OTD and only one land
It's the same. I prefer the Delver's start because we have seen what the opponent could be play. With Daze too in opening hand we MUST to play the Delver!
3) I'm OTP and more that one land
We need to stay open. If the opponent will be fetch we can Stifle it. If he doesn't we could play the Delver and also stay open for Stifle! :D
4) I'm OTD and more that one land
It's again the same. We need to watch and try to understand opponent's plays. In this case GP could be really usefull! ;)

So, with this simple rules we can do always the best start play also without the (STRONG!) GP.
I prefer to play two more and good counterspells like SP and "lose" 1x GP and 1x GL because with this strong denial idea the Pierce could be really decisive for the winning!

All IMHO, obv ;)

hey guys, does any of you guys have a sideboard guide to the UR Delver version? I am not very sure about the things they are doing and would like to see different points of view.

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Originally Posted by silasteamtop

hey guys, does any of you guys have a sideboard guide to the UR Delver version? I am not very sure about the things they are doing and would like to see different points of view.

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What do you mean exactly? In general in most fair matchups you want to board out 4 Force of Will since it makes card disadvantage. Ur Delver is better on the board. Against combo decks you need a lot of counter spells so you board out a couple of slow burn spells such as PoP and Chain Lightning and your slowest creatures like Reveler and TNN. Against Burn or very aggressive aggro builds (also mirror) you can board out Gitaxian Probe when you dont feel comfortable shocking yourself. In these matchups every single life matters so Probe is sometimes a disadvantage. Against specific decks like Lands, Aggro Loam or Stompy/Chalice builds you use specific cards like Blood Moon, Vapor Snag or artifact hate so you will board out cards which are not good against these decks. Against D&T you dont need counter spells at all so you board out 4 FoW and 1-4 Daze for all the removal and artifact hate you have. With this guide you should be fine boarding with Ur Delver. If you play the build with Stifle and a little slower version you also have to decide if you are on the play or on the draw, otp Stifle is way better than otd.

To Ur Delver:
I tested the slower Stifle build more and its actually a very sweet and consistent list. It is probably a little bit worse than Ur Burn because its missing this explosive starts but it has more outs against combo and specific decks. This is my list:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

The idea was I asked myself why to play this build instead of Grixis Delver or Canadian Thresh. The answer should be that 2 colors are giving you a better manabase than 3/4c which makes your deck more consistent and less sensible to your opponents Wastelands. Otherwise putting in another color is always better since it gives you a larger card pool to use. That leads to the mana denial plan which means we have to play 3-4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland. In the sideboard you also have to play Blood Moon which fits perfectly in it. The cards:

- Grim Lavamancer is actually a main part of this build. I had games which were dominated only by it because he removed every Delver or Shaman my opponent played and pinged consistently. Also he is an additional T1 play to Delver which you are missing (no Swiftspear) so you need to play at least 2 of them.
- Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer are the creatures this deck is about. They do most of the action and damage. So you should run 4 of each.
- True- Name Nemesis is kind of slow. We are playing 18 lands and 4 of them are Wastelands. I tried 3 TNN and didn't like it, Id say 2 are acceptable. I could also try to play 1 but I'm afraid I don't have enough creatures for the current meta. TNN will win most of the mirrors so I like having them even if they are a little clunky.
- Snapcaster Mage does not fit in imho. I would honestly say it's because playing it in our turn is not how it can and should be played. I think you mainly want to play Wasteland and Stifle in T1-2 and then play the deck very aggressively. Snapcaster always felt very slow so I cutted it. Also without Snapcaster I use Lavamancer even more aggressive which I prefered.
- Gitaxian Probe is a very important card in this build. You'll gain a lot of information about what to play in T1-3. With Probing first you can decide whats the better play (Stifle, cantrip or creature, Basics or Volcanic) which is important. I also played Grixis Delver and in 99% of the time Shaman is the BEST T1 play you can have. I still want to continue playing 4 Probes but you could also run 3.
- Stifle as I mentioned is a card this deck needs to do something "better" than Grixis Delver. Stifle can be pretty devestating for your opponent and does not Time Walk you at all since you can do it with an Island so there is no danger that you also run into an opponents Wasteland. That is pretty good! I prefer 3 Stifle than 4 because I see it as an additional T1 play to Delver and Lavamancer. We are still more aggressive than Canadian Thresh so having 4 Stifle would feel a little to passive in Ur. Also Stifle does not work that well together with Pyromancer. Ill explain this:
Lets say you are on the play with a T1 Delver. You also have a Probe, Pyromancer and a second land in your hand. The first card you draw from the top is a Stifle, Delver flipped now. In this case, normally you should attack with Delver, play land, Pyromancer and then Probe your opponent to get your token. Since you have Stifle in your hand you are in kind of a "dilemma". Stifle is not an agressive card. When playing Pyromancer you are tapped out and you cant play Stifle T2. In T3 Stifle will be proabably "dead" or much weaker so you want to play it T2. On the other hand having T1 Delver and T2 Pyromancer + Probe is a dream start. So in that case Stifle will be the "worst" card to draw from the top. So what is the right play? Obv Pyromancer and Probe. This is why Stifle and Pyromancer can be a little akward to have. In Canadian Thresh for example this would not happen because they just play Mongoose which costs 1 and still have their mana open for Stifle. The rest are basic cards like 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 4 Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning.

I am still not sure about playing 2 Spell Pierce main or not. I think they would work grea but I also dont know what to put out for it, if I find something Ill let you know. Maybe 1 Chain Lightning and 1 Probe? Thats it from my side, have a nice day you all!

I understood, thanks for your consideration. They look a bit like mine, and it's good to know that I'm not that out of the way. I play UR Burn for now, why do I believe any good player who takes heed to be able to dodge Stifle. Meanwhile, I've been thinking. Does Cryptic Serpent not fit the Stifle list?

list of a place here:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Cryptic Serpent
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm

SB:
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
1 Spell Pierce
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge

Tested the build more and this is the final list:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

That list combines all the good cards now we probably want and need. I cutted the 4. Probe and 2 Chain Lightning for 2 Spell Pierce and 1 Forked Bolt. I really like how grindy and fast it can play at the same time, it is right in the middle between Grixis Delver and Bug Delver, Canadian should be the slowest Delver list out of all of them. Sometimes you play T1 Delver and T2 Pyromancer + Probe which is quite an aggressive start. The other option is to play T1 nothing and Stifle your opponent, continued by T2 Delver or Lavamancer while having a Wasteland open. Big props are you can easily run Basics and your manabase is super solid. Cons are youre very limited to combo or things like Big Eldrazi imo since you only play 2 colors.
Also this build kind of have more potential than the Prowess build with Swiftspears. Im playing the Swiftpsear list for around 5 months now and it plays extremely fast and explosive. But Stifling/Wasting your opponent + using Lavamancer extremely aggressively can also dominate an entire game, probably even more than attacking with a 3/3 Shroud creature aka Nimble Mongoose. Also Swiftspear can sometimes be a very weak draw if he comes later, Lavamancer can be a top deck if your opponent does not have a removal spell instantly. I will maybe even try that build with 4 Stifle and cut an other TNN, which was definitely the worst creature of them because its very slow while playing Wasteland, Stifle and Lavamancer more aggressively.

I'm thinking about a white splash for this deck.
Jesaki's color combination is awsome and we could play strong spells like StP on the main and enchantment hating like Disenchant and Wear//Tear on the side.
In UR build we always lose against a big creature (Reanimator, etc): we can't burn it each time!
This is the list that I would try soon:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
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1 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroblast
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Divert

This is pure tempo.
Thing in the Ice is really cool and in this deck could be an MVP!
With YP, 30 istant or sorcery and Delver is a nice configuration.
The flip effect can be our Jace+Terminus like a Miracles deck.

Another UWR version could be this one:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
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1 Engineered Explosives
2 Winter Orb
2 Wear // Tear
3 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge
2 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Monastery Mentor is the new (and slow/strong) Pyromancer.
1 Island because our spell is more slow than a normal UR Delver.


Without the splash I want to try main Dismember and sideboard Vapor Snag.

hey LucaT, anything new on Thing in the Ice? How does it work?

ItIsUnfair, typically a Miracles player, took top 8 at the most recent MTGO Legacy Challenge.

He ran it back to Olle Rade's innovation: playing Soul-Scar Mage. Why did anyone ever stop using this card in the first place?

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Soul-Scar Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
4 Force of Will
Lands (16)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Rough // Tumble

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Originally Posted by korstructure

ItIsUnfair, typically a Miracles player, took top 8 at the most recent MTGO Legacy Challenge.

He ran it back to Olle Rade's innovation: playing Soul-Scar Mage. Why did anyone ever stop using this card in the first place?

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Soul-Scar Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
4 Force of Will
Lands (16)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Rough // Tumble

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I've been playing Soul Scar for a long time (2/2 Split with Stormchaser) and i dont know which card has performed better or worse as both are only mediocre compared to Delver and Swiftspear anyway. Stormchaser having evasion and beeing pitchable to FoW makes me believe he could still be the superior choice.

In terms of a 2 drop I also prefer Stormchaser, due to his evasion, but it also enables Rough/Tumble or Pyroclasm in the board, while Pyromancer is slower in the short run but not a target for pyroblast.

For the Pyromancer list, I'd definetly cut a Volcanic for a single USea to access Cabal Therapy in the board. It weakens your mana base marginally and doesn't matter in games you board in black cards (combo).

Finally I wonder that nobody already picked up the discussion about Ghitu Lavamancer, which seems like a superior Goblin Guide and a better Swiftspear as a top deck, although I don't know in which situation I'm looking for a top deck Swiftspear. Additionally there is Wizard's Lightning as an interesting card. It circumvents Chalice and Counterbalance and I can see it replace Chain Lightning.

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

Finally I wonder that nobody already picked up the discussion about Ghitu Lavamancer, which seems like a superior Goblin Guide and a better Swiftspear as a top deck, although I don't know in which situation I'm looking for a top deck Swiftspear. Additionally there is Wizard's Lightning as an interesting card. It circumvents Chalice and Counterbalance and I can see it replace Chain Lightning.

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Im playing 2 Grim Lavamancer in my main build for the last 3 months now and don't go up to 3 because of a singe Bedlam Reveler and the little anti synergy. I allready explained this a couple of pages ago but repeat it for everybody again:
When it comes to the Prowess list you want to have creatures in this deck instead of more cantrips or more burn spells!! Also you want to be the fastest Delver deck out there and outrace Grixis, Canadian and Bug Delver. So you need to play around 10 cc1 creatures to make sure having T1 something on the board. How are we supposed to win against Grixis or Bug if we play T1 nothing while holding a Stormchaser in hand and our opponent has T1 Deathrite Shaman. Being the fastest Delver deck means we have to make a T1 creature play more likely. So 4 Swiftspear, 4 Delver and 1-2 Lavamancer/1-2 Soul Scar Mage should be a must imho.
Also coming to Stormchaser vs. Pyromancer I dont follow the logic where Stormchaser is in any world better than Pyromancer. Pyromancer can flood the board in a tremendous way with 4 Gitaxian Probe main deck. It is a high quality threat which will win mirrors and entire games if not handeled. Stormchaser Mage is a joke compared to YP, it very rarely comes for 3, sometimes for 2 and very often for 1. The best play with Stormchaser Mage I've ever had was chump blocking Marit Lage while top deck Ponder into finding a Chain Lightning which won me the game :laugh: Actually YP were still better because he would have made more damage in the beginning and a Chain Lightning would not have been needed anymore. There is a weak point to YP which is mass removal and I do get that. Still which decks are running mass removal that much? In an aggro deck like Ur Delver you should not be afraid of 1-2 mass removal board cards and even if they shop up you still have counter magic.

Wizard's Lightning will also not be playable. How many wizzards you got again? 2-3 Lavamancer, 4 Delver of Secrets... but wait. When Delver is flipped it is NOT a wizzard anymore, its a human insect which makes Wizard's Lightning not gonna work anymore!

A card I see in the future is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the right builds. That guy could win mirrors and be good against other creature heavy decks. Only but big problem is hes NOT a removal, hes more of a staller since he only does -2/-0. He has excellent synergy with Bedlam Reveler and Cryptic Serpent (not Lavamancer obv) so he could be played in a little slower and less burn orientated list. Thats it from me, peace out!

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

\How are we supposed to win against Grixis or Bug if we play T1 nothing while holding a Stormchaser in hand and our opponent has T1 Deathrite Shaman.

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Mulliganing... and Price of Progress

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Also coming to Stormchaser vs. Pyromancer I dont follow the logic where Stormchaser is in any world better than Pyromancer.

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One where Lightning Bolt exists... /s but removal choice changs as meta shifts, both get hit by Fatal Push, Swords, etc. But only one of them dies to Bolt.

Prowess+Haste+Flying... Stormchaser mage is geared towards being proactive, Pyromancer is geared towards reactive. Prowess enables UR Delver to turn into a "combo" deck of sorts. Young Pyromancer is unable to do damage when it comes into play, Stormchaser is. It's a matter of playstyle/choice really.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Wizard's Lightning will also not be playable.

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Agreed. But I believe the guy meant to ask about Ghitu Lavarunner (the early translations attempts had it as Ghitu Lavamancer), which is a 2/2 with haste when you have spell mastery (1/2 without haste otherwise). I think it's not the best choice.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

A card I see in the future is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the right builds.

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I think Vryn's Prodigy is too slow.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

When it comes to the Prowess list you want to have creatures in this deck instead of more cantrips or more burn spells! [...] So you need to play around 10 cc1 creatures to make sure having T1 something on the board.

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So... there's a lot going on here... If your only real prowess threat is Swiftspear, that's not the greatest. Stormchaser is really swiftspears 5-7 with evasion, which is why he sees play. Upping the number of creatures lowers chances of blind delver flips as well as the ability to get crazy counts of prowess triggers.

All the other delver decks also play 8 1cmc threats, DRS+Delver, Mongoose+Delver, etc. For UR Delver, having a turn 1 threat is more important compared to all other delver decks. Other delver decks are geared towards reactive play, and less around proactive play. They're playing Stifle, Hymn, Therapy, Spell Pierce, wasteland, etc. They leave up mana to interact with the opponent. UR Delver tends to want to tap out and have Daze/Force for interaction. UR Delver cannot keep a hand that doesn't get going ASAP. Whether you add more threats or not, it's simply if you don't have one, you mulliagan, you can't cantrip and dig for it (you look like Show&Tell then lol).

The other issue with UR Delver, is you don't have a True-Name Nemisis, Gurmag Angler, or Goyf. (Sure... some of ya'll play TNN, but the mana base isn't reliable enough to run it).

That's why when Bedlam Reveler was printed, there was a spike of interest in the deck since UR Delver finally hand a Goyf like creature to play (also the fact it kind of brought back memories of Treasure Cruise). Same with Cryptic Serpent. The reason why Young Pyromancer seems so good, is that it can fill the same role as Goyf/Gurmag, but it takes time to build it up into that role, and why you probably feel there's a huge problem with Stormchaser Mage.

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

Finally I wonder that nobody already picked up the discussion about Ghitu Lavamancer, which seems like a superior Goblin Guide and a better Swiftspear as a top deck, although I don't know in which situation I'm looking for a top deck Swiftspear. Additionally there is Wizard's Lightning as an interesting card. It circumvents Chalice and Counterbalance and I can see it replace Chain Lightning.

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I wouldn't really try Wizard's Lightning. Against Counterbalance decks, I feel you're brining in Pyroblast and Flusterstorm anyways, I think if Counterbalance resolves, you're just in a really tough spot and want to set up to fight it on the stack more (there's also Exquisite Firecraft and Sulfuric Vortex, which use to see a lot more play when Counter-Top was a thing)... As for Chalice, I think Abrade, and other Smash affects are better. (actual smash cantrips, but I don't recommend it as the first choice lol). I think you want to be very streamlined, and Wizard's Lightning has a high chance of not being streamlined.

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

Mulliganing... and Price of Progress

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Mulligan is allready a big problem to Ur Delver. I remember having hands like 2 Delver, 2 Daze, 1 Ponder, 1 Bolt and a Basic Mountain on the hand. Its pretty bad to play a mulligan on 2 Delver because I have the Basic Mountain instead of an Island or just Volcanic. I really don't want to mulligan even further by having no real threat or to much burn spells or something. Going down the creature heavy route just makes it more easy for us imho.

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

One where Lightning Bolt exists... /s but removal choice changs as meta shifts, both get hit by Fatal Push, Swords, etc. But only one of them dies to Bolt.

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You can say this about a lot of creatures. Im honestly not that afraid of 4 Lightning Bolt. This is more of a reason to increase creatures in the first place instead of protecting yourself from Lightning Bolt. Second of all YP is atleast a card people have to Bolt otherwise it will dominate the game. Stormchaser can be ignored in my experience because he will not race Gurma Angler or TNN in the first place. Ive never seen an opponent react to Stormchaser like: "oh shit, I gotta do something..." YP is just an other level, people are scared of it and for a reason, I won games with 8 tokens in game because of 2 Gitaxian Probes I found after brainstorming. Stormchaser would have made a single time 5-6 damage and again its there with 1 next turn. Also YP is not a reactive card at all. You should play very aggressively to generate tokens imo which suits the deck pretty well.
And yes it is playstyle for sure! I dont try to say Stormchaser Mage is a bad card in general. I just can not see a world in which Stormchaser has a place and YP not. I played a 2/2 split of them a while back and actually really liked it. I always felt 4 YP are to much and a little bit to slow, I currently play 3 so 3/1 or 2/2 seems good for me. But playing without YP... hell no!

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

Agreed. But I believe the guy meant to ask about Ghitu Lavarunner (the early translations attempts had it as Ghitu Lavamancer), which is a 2/2 with haste when you have spell mastery (1/2 without haste otherwise). I think it's not the best choice.

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I see he means Ghitu Lavamancer. Doesn't look too bad with 2 Bedlam Reveler and a Cryptic Serpent, I see the synergy. But not sure if its good enough for Legacy next to Deathrite Shaman though!

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

I think Vryn's Prodigy is too slow.

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Not in a slower list! I can not say if its gonna be Ur Control or still Ur Delver by then but I can see his potential. I mean you play 1-2 copies of him and he should instantly transforms when being played. So you get a planeswalker for 2 mana which does not sound bad at all. Then he stalls the mirror while giving your cards more value long term, great synergie with YP and TNN! Definitely an option for slower builds, main and sideboard!

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

So... there's a lot going on here... If your only real prowess threat is Swiftspear, that's not the greatest. Stormchaser is really swiftspears 5-7 with evasion, which is why he sees play. Upping the number of creatures lowers chances of blind delver flips as well as the ability to get crazy counts of prowess triggers.

All the other delver decks also play 8 1cmc threats, DRS+Delver, Mongoose+Delver, etc. For UR Delver, having a turn 1 threat is more important compared to all other delver decks. Other delver decks are geared towards reactive play, and less around proactive play. They're playing Stifle, Hymn, Therapy, Spell Pierce, wasteland, etc. They leave up mana to interact with the opponent. UR Delver tends to want to tap out and have Daze/Force for interaction. UR Delver cannot keep a hand that doesn't get going ASAP. Whether you add more threats or not, it's simply if you don't have one, you mulliagan, you can't cantrip and dig for it (you look like Show&Tell then lol).

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You can not count Stormchaser in since it is a cc2 creature. Playing T1 something makes both on the draw and on the play a HUGE different in mirrors. Also when playing Grim Lavamancer you have a creature AND a removal to their Shaman or Delver which is the reason for me praying on it.

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

The other issue with UR Delver, is you don't have a True-Name Nemisis, Gurmag Angler, or Goyf. (Sure... some of ya'll play TNN, but the mana base isn't reliable enough to run it).

That's why when Bedlam Reveler was printed, there was a spike of interest in the deck since UR Delver finally hand a Goyf like creature to play (also the fact it kind of brought back memories of Treasure Cruise). Same with Cryptic Serpent. The reason why Young Pyromancer seems so good, is that it can fill the same role as Goyf/Gurmag, but it takes time to build it up into that role, and why you probably feel there's a huge problem with Stormchaser Mage.

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Yeah this is so true. By adding YP you increase the power level of Ur Delver. Not the speed and not the explosivenes, but the level in general. I realized when playing this deck for a long time now you will have a lot of games which will be longer and more grindy such as mirrors and against other blue decks. We play 8 counter spells and 3-4 FoW will come out after the board. You just can not counter all the spells your opponent has so you rely on finding actually better cards which do more in general! And a single Chain Lightning will be worse compared to Lavamancer in a lot of situations. Also YP will be much better than Stormchaser if you think about the next 2-3 turns. Bedlam Reveler is great in this deck, I split it 1/1 with TNN. Reveler still looses to Gurmag Angler and TNN though thats why I split them 1/1.
In my experience the deck goes longer in the matches than I want it to be. But your opponent has answers to our threats and we have answers to theirs. In mirrors draw is very important so you need to make draws more powerful. That does happen with YP and Lavamancer because their are threats. Chain Lightning is not a threat, it is a removal at first and maybe in the end your last burn spell. But I allready have 3 finishers with 2 PoP and 1 Blast so you need to count it as a removal. And by playing to much burn spells you will find yourself in situations where you are the passive deck with Ur Delver actually because you have more removal and counter spells than creatures and their is nothing to do than defending yourself. Than you topdeck Stormchaser and he hits for 1... Not that great imho. These are the scenarios which are deciding at least the mirrors in my experience. If you play against combo your creatures are not deciding the game anyway, the game is more about how many counter spells you draw and can you handle Griselbrando and Tendrils of Agony. Against control decks it will come down to card value again and here is YP your biggest tread imho. Racing the opponent needs an super aggressive start with 1-2 Delver and 1-2 Swiftspears. That can happen with and withought Stormchasers and YP. That means in all the matchups you need to be very fast neither Stormchaser or YP will be the greatest card and make a difference! In all other matchups which you need grindier and cards which create more value on the board (Miracles for example and most of the mirrors) YP will be superior to Stormchaser. Stormchaser Mage can block Marit Lage though ^^

Thank you for the analysis on Stormchaser vs. YP. I don't dislike one over the other. I even think YP is great as it enables Wasteland and can even be cast off it. Wasteland unfortunately dissynergyses with Price of Progress, which is a big win con for this deck. If you play YP, why not Cabal Therpy and Deathrite right away. The answer is the instable mana base but doesn't deathrite make up for that? As you also said YP is a little slower (I stated Stormchaser deals more damage right away) and my point of view is that we need to outrace other decks early in order to stand a chance. Adding Wasteland and cutting PoP already shifts the direction of the deck a lot. I still like the approach you took in the past but I personally didn't have any success and it always felt like a worse RUG Delver/Grixis list.

Another reason for the fact that I like the wizards theme: Ghitu Lavarunner, Delver, Lavamancer, Pyromancer (even Vendillion Clique) are all wizards (btw so is stormchaser) and would provide the deck with a decent amount of one, two, even three drops. Synergies would be Wizard's Lightning and Cavern or Souls (maybe one of). Is this better than the current build? I don't know. As with many things in Legacy: probably not. I would even give Chart a Curse another try...

I disagree with Pyroblast being a decent answer to Counterbalance as it only works in the moment it is cast and most likely not when you target it in play. Once resolved we will have a hard time resolving any spell ourselves. Chalice can at least be dealt with but for enchantment we simply have no answer. (Engineered Explosives maybe, but I'd consider that too slow).

Tomorrow I will test this list and see how it goes:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3-4 Young Pyromancer
0-1 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Cryptic Serpent
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
0-1 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

In my meta are actually not a lot of Wasteland/Tempo decks so I can see myself playing quite aggressively on Volcanics to have access on RR and BB for Reveler and Serpent. I also test how 4 YP will work out in this build, I allready tested it and felt it was a little slowish but it might work better in a Reveler/Serpent list. I can also consider to cut 1 YP for an other Forked Bolt or maybe even 1 Stormchaser Mage. Ill see about that, the rest is basic stuff though. Ill let you know tomorrow how it went :)

Anyone got some tips for the Moon/Dragon Stompy MU?
I have 2 Smash in my board and could make room for another slot. Would you guys run a third anti artifact card if you expect a bigger amount of chalice/bridge/moon prison decks? If yes which one? Abrade, By Force or another Smash?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

Anyone got some tips for the Moon/Dragon Stompy MU?
I have 2 Smash in my board and could make room for another slot. Would you guys run a third anti artifact card if you expect a bigger amount of chalice/bridge/moon prison decks? If yes which one? Abrade, By Force or another Smash?

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I mean CotV decks are designed to win against aggro blue decks. So we allready have on the draw 4 Force of Will and 2 artifact hate cards and on the play 4 Fow, 4 Daze, 1-2 Pierce and additional 2 artifact hate cards. I would say this is enough. If CotV resolves youre not able to digg for the cards anyway! It is just a bad matchup for us. I could have made 2 Top 8s on large tournaments if I hadn't faced against several CotV decks, I think its something we have to live with. Making 1-2 more free slots in your board will not change the fact the decks are good against us with cards like CotV, Thrinishpere, Bridge, etc.

So I played on thursday a tournament in my LGS with this list, went 4-0:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Cryptic Serpent
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

I actually like Cryptic Serpent and Reveler much more than TNN. Reveler is soooo powerful when it gets a little more grindy and also Serpent is such a cheap and strong beater. TNN is ONLY better against Grixis Delver because of its evasion against YP. The problem I had with the build was missing more cc1 creatures for a decent T1 play. I wouldn't even say I miss Lavamancer in particular, it is just that T1 not playing a creature is a really weak in Ur Delver and makes Swiftspear also much weaker. Having 10 cc1 creatures feels more stable than having 8 because the deck relies soo much on attacking in the early turns and having pressure on the board. Also Lavamancer makes up way more if its active because he counts as a pinger and a removal spells so I don't see any space for Serpent and 2 Reveler because they don't make the deck better in general, it is just really cool playing with them and they synergies really well with the deck. Lavamancer in your main build actually makes mirrors and playing against other creature decks much better so I still think having Lavamancer in the list is still better than Serpent and Reveler but I can see how close it is.
3 YP/1 SM was a good split imo, having 1 creature which has evasion is decent and can be useful. In that list I posted I might try 2/2 because Serpent and Reveler are allready big guys on the board. In a list with Lavamancer YP feels waayyy superior to Stormchaser.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

hey LucaT, anything new on Thing in the Ice? How does it work?

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Hi dude.
Sorry but that list sucks.
I'm returning into a pure UR Delver with more bolt and less counterspell.
This is the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Bedlam Reveler
3 Stormchaser Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
-
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
1 Vapor Snag

8 creatures with :1: drop: the start must to be strong!
Only 16 lands but without Wastelands. I want to have always U or R: so 9 fetchlands for search it!
This list is good because it plays 31 Delver's spells (51.6% chance to flip it blind): Swiftspear and Stormchaser are happy about this! :wink:
Bedlam and TNN can help us in midgame: draw 3 cards with an empy hand is really great!
PoP on Main beacuse for 1R always do at least 4 damage.
Mutagenic is op with Prowess strategy and could save our Delver from a Bolt when we are tapped out. A sort of Mental Misstep.
In sideboard I want 2x Blood Moon, in some match-up could be gg.
I'm returning in a pure aggro version: the Grixis-Blackless version was unstable.
I would like to try the Snake over the Nemesis: it looks veeery cool! :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucaT

Hi dude.
Sorry but that list sucks.
I'm returning into a pure UR Delver with more bolt and less counterspell.
This is the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Bedlam Reveler
3 Stormchaser Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
-
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
1 Vapor Snag

8 creatures with :1: drop: the start must to be strong!
Only 16 lands but without Wastelands. I want to have always U or R: so 9 fetchlands for search it!
This list is good because it plays 31 Delver's spells (51.6% chance to flip it blind): Swiftspear and Stormchaser are happy about this! :wink:
Bedlam and TNN can help us in midgame: draw 3 cards with an empy hand is really great!
PoP on Main beacuse for 1R always do at least 4 damage.
Mutagenic is op with Prowess strategy and could save our Delver from a Bolt when we are tapped out. A sort of Mental Misstep.
In sideboard I want 2x Blood Moon, in some match-up could be gg.
I'm returning in a pure aggro version: the Grixis-Blackless version was unstable.
I would like to try the Snake over the Nemesis: it looks veeery cool! :cool:

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thats pretty much the standard list ^^ now if you would only cut 2 Stormchaser Mage for 2 Young Pyromancer I'd say its perfect :P and also Fireblast is better in this deck than Mutagenic Growth. If you want to play it cut a single Chain Lightnig for a Fireblast. Rescued my ass so many times :D

So I've been testing YP and Stormchaser much more lately and I came to the result I want to always play 1 Stormchaser and 2-3 YP. As I stated above YP is in general a much better card which produces more value and quality overall. But sometimes you can play Ur Delver like a "combo deck" with a lot of Prowess triggers and you need to damage THIS turn instead of next. And since Stormchaser is a flyer you probably want to have it at least as a 1 of in your deck to potentially dig for it if the board is allready flooded or you need Haste damage. I see Stormchaser more of a Burn spell than an actual creature though which has more value in the beginning and less in the end (compared to Lightning Bolt) but I want to run a 15 creatures build so a 3/1 split works really good. That is the current list I am playing:

1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

There is a little disharmony between Lavamancer and Reveler though but I feel you can still run both in your deck because they win different matchups, games and scenarios:

- Lavamancer is a god given present against creature decks because it will remove almost 90% of the creatures in the format "for free". It creates a lot of value with almost 0 costs. Lavamancer will dominate especially in the early stages of the game by being a constant threat. Also Lavamancer gives your actual hand cards more value. Instead of Dazing or Bolting an opponents creature you can just kill it with Lavamancer while keeping Daze or Bolt for different scenarios Lavamancer could not handle. That increases your card value overall.

- Reveler is better in topdeck situations and grindy games where Lavamancer can be to slow. Reveler works really great with YP and will win probably not on the board but by the cards you draw from it. In comparison to Lavamancer you could say Reveler shines in the late game because it lets you draw 3 new cards which will win you the game probably this or next turn. Lavamancer handles the board more long term and in very early stages of the game and and gives your cards more value for their use right in the beginning. So in general I'd say Lavamancer is a card for early stages which requires hand cards while Reveler is a good late game effect which adds hand cards.

That being said, it is very unlikely to dominate the early stage with an active Lavamancer and not winning the game because there are no GY cards for Reveler late game. It is either way! You either win early through Delver, Swiftspear and Lavamancer or you win very late with Reveler finding Bolt, PoP and Fireblast. So the anti synergie between Lavamancer and Reveler is not as big as people might think. Lavamancer and Reveler have quite a different character, you use them on different stages of the game and they require different scenarios and cards to work. So they can work really good together in the right numbers. Obv you don't play 4/4, but a healthy 1-2/1-2 split is possible.