[Deck] 43 Lands

In the standard lists, Chalices are entirely proactive cards. While this is good, we run the risk of splash damage when we proactively set them at the wrong numbers.

iostream: The real challenge becomes effective sideboarding. Pick a matchup where you think you will want chalices... and then figure out what to board in and out. It's incredibly difficult to justify taking cards out for chalice of the void in most matchups.

In the Reanimator matchup, Lands was the control, and Reanimator was heavily centered around 1 mana, and board plans did often include boarding one or more chalice. The issue here is that chalice of the void simply isn't as strong of a play as many of our other cards.

Often, sideboarding plans include answers to resolved hate cards or cards that blank hate entirely. In my example board, you care little about hate cards, as your artifacts allow you to play through everything (Crucible is poor against Planar Void and Leyline.) Alternatively, cards like Krosan Grip are boarded in as direct answers.

dahcmai: Although you said you had Chalice, Blue Lands decks now run Tolaria West to tutor up Zuran Orb. A second Zuran Orb may be prudent in some metagames, but I do not believe chalice is the answer you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

In the standard lists, Chalices are entirely proactive cards. While this is good, we run the risk of splash damage when we proactively set them at the wrong numbers.

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This is certainly true; that's why they're a sideboard card. We should generally know what the key numbers are after game 1, I would think. Relic/Crypt is a bad ambiguity, admittedly, but that is the exception rather than the rule. e.g. we always know tempo always hates chalice at 1.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

iostream: The real challenge becomes effective sideboarding. Pick a matchup where you think you will want chalices... and then figure out what to board in and out. It's incredibly difficult to justify taking cards out for chalice of the void in most matchups.

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I personally haven't encountered this difficulty. Specifically, it's usually not the case that every single land we run is always useful. For example, Maze of Ith is bad against Countertop/Progenitus builds because they have no legal targets. Wasteland usually blows against Goblins and Fish since most of their lands are basics. You get the idea. Perhaps this is a serious strategic error, but I can often find four lands I don't like as much as 4 chalice post-board. I'm not claiming this is is universal, but it happens pretty often (for example, 4 chalice against tempo decks seems pretty bad given how brutally effective our disruption is against them game 1, but maybe 1 or 2 chalice can be justified). The tradeoff, of course, is that we have to Loam a bit more conservatively, but this seems like an acceptable compromise for the disruption Chalice provides.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your sideboarding strategies, though.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

In the Reanimator matchup, Lands was the control, and Reanimator was heavily centered around 1 mana, and board plans did often include boarding one or more chalice. The issue here is that chalice of the void simply isn't as strong of a play as many of our other cards.

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Very true, but in reanimator's case, all their crucial spells are sorcery speed, so Crypt/Ruins was brutally powerful. This certainly does not generalize to other decks.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

Often, sideboarding plans include answers to resolved hate cards or cards that blank hate entirely. In my example board, you care little about hate cards, as your artifacts allow you to play through everything (Crucible is poor against Planar Void and Leyline.) Alternatively, cards like Krosan Grip are boarded in as direct answers.

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Grip and Ray are very good, but are they always enough? Hate can be piled on pretty hard on us. Yixlid Jailer, Leyline, Planar Void, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, among other things are all realities we have to deal with. GY hate is public enemy #1 for us, and it's no surprise that almost all our cards are geared against it. Do you think your extra copies of Ruins and Tabernacle are a more effective response to that than Chalice?

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

dahcmai: Although you said you had Chalice, Blue Lands decks now run Tolaria West to tutor up Zuran Orb. A second Zuran Orb may be prudent in some metagames, but I do not believe chalice is the answer you are looking for.

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I wholeheartedly agree - Chalice is just not at all a replacement for Orb. With multiple Explorations in play, Orb allows you to gain life at an obscene rate.

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Originally Posted by iostream

This is certainly true; that's why they're a sideboard card. We should generally know what the key numbers are after game 1, I would think. Relic/Crypt is a bad ambiguity, admittedly, but that is the exception rather than the rule. e.g. we always know tempo always hates chalice at 1.

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Some decks may be highly centered around specific mana costs. However, we dilute our loams, delay the start of loaming, and hinder our own progress while setting up for a chalice.

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Originally Posted by iostream

I personally haven't encountered this difficulty. Specifically, it's usually not the case that every single land we run is always useful. For example, Maze of Ith is bad against Countertop/Progenitus builds because they have no legal targets. Wasteland usually blows against Goblins and Fish since most of their lands are basics. You get the idea. Perhaps this is a serious strategic error, but I can often find four lands I don't like as much as 4 chalice post-board. I'm not claiming this is is universal, but it happens pretty often (for example, 4 chalice against tempo decks seems pretty bad given how brutally effective our disruption is against them game 1, but maybe 1 or 2 chalice can be justified). The tradeoff, of course, is that we have to Loam a bit more conservatively, but this seems like an acceptable compromise for the disruption Chalice provides.

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Maze of Ith is not bad against Countertop decks, because it allows you to maintain a larger life total by stopping goyfs. Is it great, no. But it's not a card I'd take out.

Wasteland is really, really strong against Merfolk, as they occasionally tap their own wastelands, and restricting them to 2 lands with Tabernacle is fantastic. Also, chalice isn't good against fish's curve.

Boarding in one or two chalices may be alright, but then we're not setting up chalice until we tutor for it, oftentimes on turn 3 and casting on turn 4. This is usually far too slow to impact the game, as an early goyf can get in for a lot of damage.

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Originally Posted by iostream

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your sideboarding strategies, though.

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The sideboard is dedicated to the control style decks; you resolve an Intuition, and you basically win. This includes Landstill and Enlightened Tutor variants. The sheer power of any of the artifacts is what sets it apart. Additionally, the sideboard almost entirely blanks graveyard ate; the artifacts care little about what is in your graveyard (besides Leyline / Void)

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Originally Posted by iostream

Very true, but in reanimator's case, all their crucial spells are sorcery speed, so Crypt/Ruins was brutally powerful. This certainly does not generalize to other decks.

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Crypt reanimation is easily broken by Reanimator, especially the weeks before Mystical's banning where they would play It That Betrays. They simply find Exhume, cast it and then Entomb after Exhume resolves.

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Originally Posted by iostream

Grip and Ray are very good, but are they always enough? Hate can be piled on pretty hard on us. Yixlid Jailer, Leyline, Planar Void, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, among other things are all realities we have to deal with. GY hate is public enemy #1 for us, and it's no surprise that almost all our cards are geared against it. Do you think your extra copies of Ruins and Tabernacle are a more effective response to that than Chalice?

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The extra copy of Ruins is there to have resiliency. The best way to play around hate is simply to slog through it; loaming while holding Ruins up sets up difficult decisions for any opponent.

@mchainmail: So how does your sideboard look like?

Answering your question, I usually exchange Manabonds for Chalice which has been working quite well for me so far.

What about the following:
If you play Dark confidant and Volrath's stronghold in MB, maybe switching an intuition and tolaria west for entomb!
You can maybe even play a Urborg, tomb of yawmoth by replacing it with your taiga and replacing maybe barbarian ring for cabal pit.
By doing this you get a fast way to play confidant and you go from 4 colors to 3 so your manascrew will be optimist a bit.

...and open up yourself to Swords to Plowshares. While Entomb still serves the main-purpose of Intuition (read: finding Loam) it's much worse at that as Intuition not only finds Loam but the answers you are looking for as well. And Tolaria West is just so fuckin damn important to the blue version of lands its not even funny, really. I dont see why I would almost break my neck trying to get Dark Confidant online only to lose it to a 1-mana white instant. Besides that I don't run black at all (used to for Extirpate but cut it from the board after trying it in 3 tournaments) and even if, finding black/red in time has never been a problem because I run 4 Mox, 4 Fetchlands, 3 Tolaria West as you should.

Well, the verdict's out from GP Columbus. Lands had a strong Day 2 showing, Show and Tell is apparently good, Storm is still alive, and U/G Madness?!

What do you all think are the implications for how Lands is positioned in the post-GP meta? What kinds of tweaks do you think are necessary?

I for one am beginning to like enlightened tutor more and more after seeing the top 8. Humility and Solitary Confinement look like good targets against some of these decks.

The persistence of combo, however, scares me. If that keeps up, Lands may yet still be relegated to the Tier 2 bin just as before the banning of Tutor.

For my part, I will be testing/running 2-3 Pithing Needles in my sideboard (replacing Tormod's Crypts as graveyard hate seems to to be kinda irrelevant in my meta) as the increasing presence e of planeswalkers, especially Jaces is scary.

A piece of tech I noticed from the t8 was Wheel of Sun and Moon. Seems like an interesting way to get the Leyline effect without having to commit to black...

I'm like Guw Lands more and more.

Stephen Menendian ran Oblivion stones in his lands deck. This card is nuts, and you all should try it. It kills planeswalkers, destroys countertop, gets rid of thopter tokens and the entire engine, and you can even save your exploration/manabond if you have a spare turn. Also gives us a wrath effect vs reanimator and aggro decks.

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Originally Posted by damnthedoodle

Stephen Menendian ran Oblivion stones in his lands deck. This card is nuts, and you all should try it. It kills planeswalkers, destroys countertop, gets rid of thopter tokens and the entire engine, and you can even save your exploration/manabond if you have a spare turn. Also gives us a wrath effect vs reanimator and aggro decks.

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I heard about Oblivion Stone late, but it seems fantastic. You didn't even mention "answers permanent-based hate cards" which is the biggest need, in my book!

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Originally Posted by Julian23

@mchainmail: So how does your sideboard look like?

Answering your question, I usually exchange Manabonds for Chalice which has been working quite well for me so far.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

My current board:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins


I really like my odds in control matchups, especially those that run counterbalance. If you resolve Intuition, you win. Easy as that. This is with a standard maindeck with Zuran Orb and Academy Ruins maindecked already.

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Oblivion Stone is an excellent new addition. I think this is pretty clear. It was so good that he didn't run Mindslaver MD.

Other tech Menendian ran, with gut reactions:

- More Ghost Quarters. I am not sure how this is actually a good idea because usually I have more urgent things to do versus Goblins, Fish, and other decks that run a lot of basics than try to wipe out all their basics. Also, he took out a Tolaria West for this?!

- 2 Choke in the sideboard. Again, seems questionable. How are you going to find this? It also seems like shooting ourselves in the foot.

- 4 Sphere of Resistance in the SB. This is intriguing. Besides playing an obvious part against combo decks, it makes it considerably harder for FoW and Extirpate to ruin our day, and slows down aggro considerably.

I think that the emergence of Sphere and Oblivion Stone as yet more non-zero cc artifacts we want suggests even further that white splashing for Enlightened Tutor is a good idea. I've been pushing for it hard in these parts, and I think it's been working out quite well in playtesting. You all should try it.

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Originally Posted by iostream

I think that the emergence of Sphere and Oblivion Stone as yet more non-zero cc artifacts we want suggests even further that white splashing for Enlightened Tutor is a good idea. I've been pushing for it hard in these parts, and I think it's been working out quite well in playtesting. You all should try it.

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Can you give me your list? The deck is extremely tight as is, I can't imagine making room; unless you're talking about axing blue or something, which I wouldn't consider...

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Originally Posted by iostream

Oblivion Stone is an excellent new addition. I think this is pretty clear. It was so good that he didn't run Mindslaver MD.

Other tech Menendian ran, with gut reactions:

- More Ghost Quarters. I am not sure how this is actually a good idea because usually I have more urgent things to do versus Goblins, Fish, and other decks that run a lot of basics than try to wipe out all their basics. Also, he took out a Tolaria West for this?!

- 2 Choke in the sideboard. Again, seems questionable. How are you going to find this? It also seems like shooting ourselves in the foot.

- 4 Sphere of Resistance in the SB. This is intriguing. Besides playing an obvious part against combo decks, it makes it considerably harder for FoW and Extirpate to ruin our day, and slows down aggro considerably.

I think that the emergence of Sphere and Oblivion Stone as yet more non-zero cc artifacts we want suggests even further that white splashing for Enlightened Tutor is a good idea. I've been pushing for it hard in these parts, and I think it's been working out quite well in playtesting. You all should try it.

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Can you post your latest E-Tutor list?

Sphere of Resistance isn't that unusual of a sb card; Menendian ran 1 next to 4 Chalice and 1 Canonist back in mid-May. This is far more reflective of a format shift: Aluren and Show and Tell decks are more prevalent than Ad Nauseam and Reanimator (where Chalice for 1 was nuts) It also makes ports far better.

Choke seems to improve already good matchups, although I may be wrong. Having them against Thopter-Top and landstill-esq variants seems incredible, as your Rishadan Ports basically read "1, Tap: Make target land useless" You're not that reliant on Blue past Tolaria West.

Ghost Quarters are bad in four matchups: Goblins, Mono U fish, Elves, UW Thopter-Top (running 10+ basics) Every other deck in the format has 4 basics tops, so the mana denial is incredibly relevant. Still, I'm holding the Quarter to a tutor target and nothing else.

Tolaria West is as much an Intuition target as anything, but I've Intuitioned for triple Tolaria West only a handful of times (to get EE to kill a permanent) Triple West is almost always too slow, and a ETB-Tapped land can really mess with some hands, so I think it's an alright cut to make.

Sure.

4 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Savannah

4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Enlightened Tutor

SB
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Smokestack
1 Damping Matrix
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The board is still a complete mess because I'm still messing around with tutor. The cuts to accommodate tutor were 1 Manabond (since you never want to see more than one of it, and guess what you have to tutor for it if you really need it?), 1 Tolaria West (we're adding more tutors, so it seems ok to taketh one away), and 1 Mishra's Factory (since ostensibly, the greater control tutor gives you reduces the need for a fourth one of these). Other notable swaps include Bayou for Savannah and fetchland for Riftstone Portal.

I think one of the Sphere of Resistance should be an Arcane Lab / Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist; decks are likely to pack bounce, so having tutorable alternatives seems necessary.

All in all, the idea is certainly intriguing. I'll try and test it out when I can. I'd probably add the 4th factory back in somewhere though.

Seems interesting - I'll put it through a gauntlet when my buddies have some free time and post some results.

I don't want to sound stupid, but...
Isn't O.Stone too expensive in mana terms? Moreover it cannot be tutored with Tolaria, etc...
You have to dredge and "oh!" find it, then recover it with Ruins. Although you can Intuition for Loam, Ruins and Stone.

IMHO it's a little expensive in mana terms, but I will not deny the wonderful effect it has in the game.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

I don't want to sound stupid, but...
Isn't O.Stone too expensive in mana terms? Moreover it cannot be tutored with Tolaria, etc...
You have to dredge and "oh!" find it, then recover it with Ruins. Although you can Intuition for Loam, Ruins and Stone.

IMHO it's a little expensive in mana terms, but I will not deny the wonderful effect it has in the game.

Thoughts?

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Intuition set-up piles happen in a lot of games as it is; setting up to recur a wrath effect is about the same effort. More importantly, O-Stone can be done over two turns, and 5 or 6 mana is relatively common in this deck (if you prioritize stone over everything else)

I'm a n00b of 43 Lands deck. Can i make same question ? (Sorry for my horrible english...)

Which hands we need to mulligan ? Hands whit no Manabond or Exploration or Mox ?

How we can hold an Extirpate on Life in G2 ?

Whan we have to side in Smokestak and Crucuble ?

Which is the correct way to use Glacial Chasm ?

As is the match up whit Merfolks and ProBant ?

Thanks