[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

Here is the Threshold deck that I play.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
2 Mental Note
2 Spy Network
2 Daze
2 Worship
2 Mana Leak
2 Predict

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
1 Tividar's Crusade
I'd be Interested to hear what people have to say about it.

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Originally Posted by Angel of Despair

Here is the Threshold deck that I play.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
2 Mental Note
2 Spy Network
2 Daze
2 Worship
2 Mana Leak
2 Predict

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
1 Tividar's Crusade
I'd be Interested to hear what people have to say about it.

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I'd definetly drop Spy Network, it gives you card disadvantage, which is something you really don't want to have. Plus looking at your opponent's hand really isn't that big of an advantage, even with meddling mage. Given some time (and some pre-gaming) you should know what your opponent plays from his first hand or before and be able to name appropriately. I'd also suggest running at least 1 enforcer.

Finally, and this is just a comment in general. I really don't like how this deck has moved towards nearly everything being 1 to cast. It may speed up the aggro end of the deck, but I really do believe it can hurt the deck overall. Chalice seems to be finding a place in more and more decks now.

I do have a valid reason for running Spy Network. I am pretty new to this format, so I don't really know the cards well. I plan on buying a Mystic Enforcer for my deck, but for right now this is all I have. I am also short 2 Trops. Thanks for the feedback though.

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Originally Posted by Angel of Despair

I do have a valid reason for running Spy Network. I am pretty new to this format, so I don't really know the cards well. I plan on buying a Mystic Enforcer for my deck, but for right now this is all I have. I am also short 2 Trops. Thanks for the feedback though.

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If you're really willing to pay that much for information, try Peek. It doesn't cost you a card, so you get the information in the lieu of the Threshold-plan. You lose a bit in terms of card selection though. But yea, Peek definately over Spy Network if you want the information so bad.

You could also move Worship to the SB and add in the last 2 Predict or Mental Note(which ever you prefer). This should help keep your hand full and speed up Threshold.

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If you're really willing to pay that much for information, try Peek.

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QFT!

I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

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It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.

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Tivadar's Crusade costs 1WW. Wrath costs 2WW. Pyroclasm costs 1R.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.

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Wrath of God and Tivadar's Crusade do NOT cost the same.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

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What decks do you see Pyroclasm being good against anyway, Elves? Most Zoo decks aren't particularly hurt by the card. I would think something like FTK would be better against Zoo like decks.

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Originally Posted by Ewokslayer

What decks do you see Pyroclasm being good against anyway, Elves? Most Zoo decks aren't particularly hurt by the card. I would think something like FTK would be better against Zoo like decks.

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Pyroclasm would be better against Elves and perhaps Zoo to some degree, but I guess that it is less than stellar there. It also seems less than stellar against Angel Stompy. I was also considering Parallax Wave in the Crusade spot. I've seen it be crazy in Angel Stompy and the only concern is the 4cc.

One of the decks worst matchups in my mind is Deadguy Ale.... and to be honest you get to a ponit where you stall out because they are eating at your yard and you have a pro black guy out. In many other instances against this deck beside that one I mentioend... pyroclasm kills every creature in that deck *sometimes shade*. Which is a very necessary use of possible card advantage. A plus is it only requires on color as well.

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Tivadar's Crusade costs 1WW. Wrath costs 2WW. Pyroclasm costs 1R.

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Oops my bad, I thought Tivadar's Crusade cost 2WW.
At any rate I would probably go with WOG if your facing alot of random aggro that is giving you problems. The biggest draw is the CC. But it doesn't go out of color and stuff can't regenerate, like they can with Pyroclasm.

Has anyone had any luck with only running 1 Enforcer mainboard? I cut down to one recently and am loving it (can't comment on how it works in Red splash). Basically, their are few matchups where I need it to win, but I can dig for it when I want it, and bury or dump it in the yard when I don't (I run Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Predict, and Mental Note). I really felt that 2 was too many since I kept getting stuck with one in my hand when I didn't want it, which is a pretty big deal with a deck like this.

If you want a pyroclasm effect in the white splash, you can always use Hail Storm. Personally, I sideboard a split between Hail Storm and Engineered Explosives.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

Has anyone had any luck with only running 1 Enforcer mainboard? I cut down to one recently and am loving it (can't comment on how it works in Red splash). Basically, their are few matchups where I need it to win, but I can dig for it when I want it, and bury or dump it in the yard when I don't (I run Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Predict, and Mental Note). I really felt that 2 was too many since I kept getting stuck with one in my hand when I didn't want it, which is a pretty big deal with a deck like this.

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I've gone down to one Enforcer in the maindeck, plus another in the side, and the deck flows a little better. To be honest, I can see him coming out altogether sometime soon. There are some matches where he's the nutz, but too many others when he's just wasted space and unnecessary.

Here's my current list:

Legacy UGW Threshold
by Bardo

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

sb 4 Hydroblast
sb 3 Armageddon
sb 2 Tivadar's Crusade
sb 2 Worship
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Mystic Enforcer
sb 1 Engineered Explosives

I don't know if that's the definitive list, but it is really freaking good.

As for the pseudo-Red splash, I flirted with this sideboard last month:

sb 3 Armageddon
sb 3 Pyroclasm
sb 2 Hydroblast
sb 2 Pyroblast
sb 2 Worship
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Volcanic Island

In the end I figured it wasn't worth it. One of the beautiful things about this deck is the consistency and stability of the mana, and going the 4c route didn't seem worth it. But I'm not sure that I'm right.

Cutting Enforcers hurts the mirror match and any control matchup, since both of those usually involve an attrition war over threats and removal.

Wrath of God is terrible because it has poor synergy with your own creatures, which you really don't want to hold back, and which are Gro's best way to force an opponent to overextend. Added to this is the card's casting cost of 2WW, which is very prohibitive for a removal spell.

Anwar, if you want a more versatile creature hoser, I think that Worship, Hail Storm, or Dueling Grounds would be good things to look at before splashing a fourth color. If none of those prove effective, you may want to try switching to a UGb build, which gives you Engineered Plague, Infest, and a multitude of spot removal options, as well as Virtue's Ruin if you're concerned with Angel Stompy.

Bardo, I really dislike the look of your draw engine. Why are you still running Mental Note? It looks like your deck will run out of cantrips much quicker than other builds. For comparison's sake, you can find the last list I used here. Would you mind explaining what advantages you think your list has over that one?

I wouldn't really play the deck without at least 15 draw spells, and I haven't regretted going up to 16 at all. Portent is extremely effective at optimizing your draws, even if it is a slowtrip, and running such an extensive cantrip base keeps me confident in my 17-land manabase.

I've actually been thinking about finding room for another Enforcer, to improve the matchups I mentioned above. Potential casualties are Counterspell #3 and Portent #4.

I play a list very similar to Bardo's (2/3 cards off) and love the Cantrip Engine. Mental Note gives this deck a very noticeable speed boost against aggro. I wasn't aware that it had fallen out of style as it seems to have been the norm since Lille. It can't be used as a dig engine (which sucks), but I haven't found this deck to really need more than Brainstorm and Serum Visions. Maybe in a creature light build this is different (I run 14 creatures).

I'm sure Bardo can explain this better than I can though.

Anyways, I'm very interested in the fact that you don't maindeck Meddling Mage. (and only board 3) I have found this card to be one of the stronger cards in the deck and a primary reason for the white splash. What are your reasons for running white in the deck instead of Red? With your cantrip engine it would also be very easy to run the Black splash adding Dark Confidant over Predict.

Either way, both versions of the deck are very good and have had success. I guess it just means Threshold in general is a damn good deck!

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Originally Posted by obfuscate freely

Cutting Enforcers hurts the mirror match and any control matchup, since both of those usually involve an attrition war over threats and removal.

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Enforcer is indeed awesome in the mirror, but it's somewhat of a "metagame call." Like, in the last four tournaments I've taken Threshold to, I've played the mirror once, and there Enforcer was a game-buster. Against Control, Mongoose seems to be the key, since Enforcer, at four mana, is much easier to counter and is an easy StP target.

But in the reports I read from the Northeast and Virginia, it seems a lot of people are playing Threshold, so I can see keeping at least one in the deck since the mirror is not a remote possibility in those regions.

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Originally Posted by obfuscate freely

Bardo, I really dislike the look of your draw engine. Why are you still running Mental Note? It looks like your deck will run out of cantrips much quicker than other builds. For comparison's sake, you can find the last list I used here. Would you mind explaining what advantages you think your list has over that one?

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Actually, once I started playing Mental Note (back in December) I haven't dropped them.

Also, before I go any further I'd like to say that I have no interest in convincing you of the "rightness" of my card decisions or the "wrongness" of yours. This is for two reasons: 1) the power differential of the cantips (excepts Brainstorm) is so minor it's like debating the hotness of two really hot chicks. And [cantip a] might be hotter in [situation a], and vice versa with [situation b]. Secondly, I agree with Urza Insane's suggestion that the form of Threshold may be strong enough that individual card differences on the cantips not might matter all that much.

With that out of the way, I don't think the deck really needs more than 12 cantrips, but if you go as low as 12, then you need to run Mental Note. The advantages of running 12 cantips is that you get to run more cards that "do something."

In my case, compared to your list, I have 4 maindeck Meddling Magi, which I think are superior to your Portent or whatever, since he's effectively a counterspell, chump blocker and beater all-in-one. Otherwise, I've swapped one of your Pithing Needles for an Engineered Explosives, since that effectively acts a "Punishment" (from Crime // Punishment) and is a critter-removal and maindeck Disenchant. Or you can just pop it for 0 for threshold purposes.

As for 12 cantips, I think the first place Lille deck demonstrated the acceptability and reliability of that many draw spells.

For reference.

I mean to get through 15 rounds in a field of almost 950 people in probably the most competitive Legacy event to date has to be worth something.

Note Summersberger's cantrip and creature base:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

Twelve draw spells (4 Mental Note), twelve critters (4 Meddling Mage and nothing above 2 mana).

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Originally Posted by obfuscate freely

I wouldn't really play the deck without at least 15 draw spells, and I haven't regretted going up to 16 at all. Portent is extremely effective at optimizing your draws, even if it is a slowtrip, and running such an extensive cantrip base keeps me confident in my 17-land manabase.

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I've been running 18 lands all along, and the 3 Threshold decks that T8'd Lille are also running 18, so I feel somewhat validated there. Also, only one of the Philly T8 Thresh decks ran 17 (Goodman's), the other two ran 18 land.

Anyway, I've been up to 16 cantips, and think that's fine in GAT or in any version of Thresh that runs Quirion Dryad, but the problem when you get above 14 cantips, in my experience, is that the deck becomes somewhat hollow, and there's a tendency to draw into more an more irrelevant cantips when you really need action and not more draw spells--even though it feels like you're doing something (since you're tapping mana and drawing cards). I mean the point of the cantips is to advance you to the parts of the deck that actually do something, whether they be dudes, counters or removal. So going to 12 cantips lets you cram in more things that "do something," but then you really want Mental Note to make sure you hit threshold early.

I've explained how awesome Mental Note is in this deck like 20 pages ago, but briefly, it practically assures threshold by turn 3, and lets you recover from a Tormod's Crypt activation with ease. It can be used as manipulation after Brainstorm if you don't have a fetchland on the board. You know EOT Brainstorm, place two lands back on top of your library and dredge them away during your upkeep with Mental Note--but that's more a "gravy play."

That's pretty much all I have to say. The deck is durable and flexible enough that variations, as long as they're well reasoned and tested, don't make for inferiority, necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Enforcer is indeed awesome in the mirror, but it's somewhat of a "metagame call." Like, in the last four tournaments I've taken Threshold to, I've played the mirror once, and there Enforcer was a game-buster. Against Control, Mongoose seems to be the key, since Enforcer, at four mana, is much easier to counter and is an easy StP target.

But in the reports I read from the Northeast and Virginia, it seems a lot of people are playing Threshold, so I can see keeping at least one in the deck since the mirror is not a remote possibility in those regions.

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Simply having more threats is the key. Yes, you have to be careful about when you play Enforcer against counters and removal, but he is an incredibly strong play against an opponent who's resources appear temporarily exhausted.

It bears mentioning that Mystic Enforcer is also desirable in many other matchups, from RGSA to Angel Stompy. I only board the card out against combo decks (which are highly favorable, anyway), and maybe Goblins.

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Also, before I go any further I'd like to say that I have no interest in convincing you of the "rightness" of my card decisions or the "wrongness" of yours. This is for two reasons: 1) the power differential of the cantips (excepts Brainstorm) is so minor it's like debating the hotness of two really hot chicks. And [cantip a] might be hotter in [situation a], and vice versa with [situation b]. Secondly, I agree with Urza Insane's suggestion that the form of Threshold may be strong enough that individual card differences on the cantips not might matter all that much.

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This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."

I also disagree that the cantrip power levels are minor. Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent. Brainstorm and Serum Visions let you see three cards, which is approximately three times as many as the one card Mental Note lets you look at. Portent actually lets you see four cards if you need it to.

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With that out of the way, I don't think the deck really needs more than 12 cantrips, but if you go as low as 12, then you need to run Mental Note. The advantages of running 12 cantips is that you get to run more cards that "do something."

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If you need to draw Mental Note to reach threshold, what happens when you don't draw Mental Note?

Of course, if Mental Note is necessary with only 12 draw spells, I will argue that that alone is a good reason to run more.

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In my case, compared to your list, I have 4 maindeck Meddling Magi, which I think are superior to your Portent or whatever, since he's effectively a counterspell, chump blocker and beater all-in-one.

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"Or whatever?"

Meddling Mage is a preemptive counterspell that gets answered by creature removal. I'd rather play Portent and find a Force or Counterspell.

Chump blockers are bad. I'd rather play Portent and find a removal spell or an actual blocker.

2/2s are not adequate beaters in this format. I'd rather play Portent and find a Nimble Mongoose or a Werebear.

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Otherwise, I've swapped one of your Pithing Needles for an Engineered Explosives, since that effectively acts a "Punishment" (from Crime // Punishment) and is a critter-removal and maindeck Disenchant. Or you can just pop it for 0 for threshold purposes.

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Explosives is a defensible card, but it requires a pretty heavy mana investment and has poor synergy with your own permanents. It seems much worse than Pithing Needle in most matchups. The exception to this is the mirror match, where Explosives is a strong tool, although they can Pithing Needle it if they know you have it.

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As for 12 cantips, I think the first place Lille deck demonstrated the acceptability and reliability of that many draw spells.

For reference.

I mean to get through 15 rounds in a field of almost 950 people in probably the most competitive Legacy event to date has to be worth something.

Note Summersberger's cantrip and creature base:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

Twelve draw spells (4 Mental Note), twelve critters (4 Meddling Mage and nothing above 2 mana).

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The second-place deck (Krutil) only played 11 draw spells, but he eschewed Mental Note for three Predicts.

The third-place deck (Labarre) ran 14 draw spells, sporting 3 each of Mental Note and Predict.

I'm not sure you can make any definitive conclusions based off of those results. All 3 decks were considerably different than your list is now. If you trust Summersberger's cantrip base and creature base, why aren't you running 4 colors? Do you think that Krutil's maindeck Worship or Labarre's Isochron Scepters could be optimal?

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I've been running 18 lands all along, and the 3 Threshold decks that T8'd Lille are also running 18, so I feel somewhat validated there. Also, only one of the Philly T8 Thresh decks ran 17 (Goodman's), the other two ran 18 land.

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I'm fairly certain the land count discrepancies stem from the differences in our cantrip bases. Notice that Goodman ran 15 cantrips. Lam Phan also ran 15, but Accumulated Knowledge stretched his curve and hurt is early game manipulation, so it still makes sense that he ran 18 lands.

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Anyway, I've been up to 16 cantips, and think that's fine in GAT or in any version of Thresh that runs Quirion Dryad, but the problem when you get above 14 cantips, in my experience, is that the deck becomes somewhat hollow, and there's a tendency to draw into more an more irrelevant cantips when you really need action and not more draw spells--even though it feels like you're doing something (since you're tapping mana and drawing cards).

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I am more than happy to continually play draw spells throughout the entire game.

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I mean the point of the cantips is to advance you to the parts of the deck that actually do something, whether they be dudes, counters or removal.

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You view cantrips significantly differently than I do. I want them to not only find me business spells, but to also keep my hand stocked with business spells up until the end of the game.

Unless I am under tremendous pressure, I will almost always chain draw spells with the primary goal of finding more draw spells. Business spells pop up, almost incidentally, and I will take a break from playing cantrips to play those business spells as the situation warrants. However, maintaining card quality advantage through the midgame requires drawing through a lot of cards. Only once the endgame is in sight will I start eschewing extra draw spells for other things.

With this in mind, you should be able to understand why I've never felt the deck to be "hollow." Indeed, I think that the extra draw spells make the deck much more robust.

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So going to 12 cantips lets you cram in more things that "do something," but then you really want Mental Note to make sure you hit threshold early.

I've explained how awesome Mental Note is in this deck like 20 pages ago, but briefly, it practically assures threshold by turn 3, and lets you recover from a Tormod's Crypt activation with ease. It can be used as manipulation after Brainstorm if you don't have a fetchland on the board. You know EOT Brainstorm, place two lands back on top of your library and dredge them away during your upkeep with Mental Note--but that's more a "gravy play."

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One more time, reaching threshold with 15-16 draw spells is rarely difficult, but maintaining card quality advantage with Mental Note often is. It's effectiveness against Tormod's Crypt might be the absolute best argument for Mental Note's inclusion, but that alone doesn't make it worthwhile.

Neither does the card's synergy with Brainstorm, obviously.

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That's pretty much all I have to say. The deck is durable and flexible enough that variations, as long as they're well reasoned and tested, don't make for inferiority, necessarily.

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As a Gro proponent and player, I don't appreciate this attitude. Stating that the deck is good no matter how you build it is a good way to stifle innovation and development.

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This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."

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As a Gro proponent and player, I don't appreciate this attitude. Stating that the deck is good no matter how you build it is a good way to stifle innovation and development.

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I feel that there is a misunderstanding here, I doubt anybody thinks the deck is good enough as it is. I do believe, however, that there may not be a single optimal list of Threshold at this time - or that the power difference can't be quantified in any relevant terms. Threshold as a deck concept is "strong enough" that many different paths may be taken.

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I also disagree that the cantrip power levels are minor. Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent. Brainstorm and Serum Visions let you see three cards, which is approximately three times as many as the one card Mental Note lets you look at. Portent actually lets you see four cards if you need it to.

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I don't feel there is any one "right" cantrip (aside from Serum and Brainstorm). Both Portent/Predict and Mental Note have obvious strengths and weaknesses. Mental Note isn't ment to dig for cards though, its sole purpose is to add to the grave. In Brados list I've found that there is little need to dig for anything since the deck is very redundant. I also feel that Bardo's 12 cantrip argument is very valid. If the deck is only playing 12 cantrips Mental Note should be a 4-of. So the real disagreement is how many cantrips should be run.

With that in mind, the argument becomes which is more valueable? The 16 cantrip engine or the 12 cantrips and Meddling Mage (or any other extra 4-of)? That's something I'm not sure of. My general feeling is that Mage adds another threat to the table (even if it is just a 2/2) that has the potential to seriously screw up somebodys plans.


EDIT:

I think IBA hit the nail on the head in the "Most Hated Cards" thread. He explains what Bardo ment by the deck being "hollow":

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I think what actually keeps Gro in check is that at the heart of it, it runs like 18 actual cards, 8 or 10 of which are reactive.

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