[OLD] UGr Threshold

Leyline isnt "gg" for Ichorid if they know it's there, they have SB Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor. If your going to mull to Leyline you might not draw counters or much of anything, giving Ichorid time to find its answer. Of course if you draw Leyline, counters, and a clock Ichorid will lose, but that draw would prolly be hard for Ichorid if that was a Crypt also. Sure Leyline is harder to deal with than Crypt, but I dont think putting Leyline into a non-black deck just to increase your Ichorid matchup is smart, unless your meta is overflowing with it. Like Bane said, this isnt Flash were dealing with.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Leyline isnt "gg" for Ichorid if we know its there, we have SB Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor. If your going to mull to Leyline you might not draw counters or much of anything, giving Ichorid time to find its answer. Of course if you draw Leyline, counters, and a clock Ichorid will lose, but that draw would prolly be hard for Ichorid if that was a Crypt also. Sure Leyline is harder to deal with than Crypt, but I dont think putting Leyline into a non-black deck just to increase your Ichorid matchup is smart, unless your meta is overflowing with it. Like Bane said, this isnt Flash were dealing with.

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I could test Crypt again. My problem is that both decks can side in Needles. I can still test Crypt....

Here's the list I'm currently working with.

Creatures : 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fledgling Dragon

Disruption : 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Draw : 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

Mana : 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Side : 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle


The sideboard needs some work, and the fire/ice slot is up in the air, but it's been fairly effective. Any comments/criticisms?

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

I could test Crypt again. My problem is that both decks can side in Needles. I can still test Crypt....

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Yes they can SB Needle vs Crypt, but they also have Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm for Leyline. Ichorid can answer either one, but I think its safer to use the ones you can actually cast and dont need to mull to, even if Leyline is a bit more crippling.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Yes they can SB Needle vs Crypt, but they also have Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm for Leyline. Ichorid can answer either one, but I think its safer to use the ones you can actually cast and dont need to mull to, even if Leyline is a bit more crippling.

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So is this another reason for Ancient Grudge to be better? I think it is. Right now, the SB looks tight right now, but cutting Control Magic for it can be the right move.

I like Krosan Grip more than Anceint Grudge, a lot more.

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Originally Posted by zulander

I like Krosan Grip more than Ancient Grudge, a lot more.

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Why ?

Here's my opinion on the subject (based on personal experience):

I like Krosan Grip against decks that can play CotV@1 + CotV@2 fast (it happened to me a couple of times against good Faerie Stompy players). Split Second is nice against Jitte, Vial, Tormod's Crypt (when it comes into play midgame or lategame). Of course there is no comparison possible with A. Grudge when it comes to enchantment removal (Leyline of the Void, Worship, Solitary Confinement, etc.)...

Ancient Grudge is nuts against Goblins; in my experience, I often found myself destroying CotV@1 and flashbacking A. Grudge to get rid of their Vial. It's also (obviously) really good against Affinity (I see the deck a lot online these days). I also like A. Grudge against Faerie Stompy (removing equipment, Chrome Mox, CotV when possible - i.e. if they don't lock you out of A. Grudge with CotV@1+CotV@2 as mentioned above, etc.).

In conclusion, these days I like 2 x Ancient Grudge and 2 x Krosan Grip in my SB.

I'm really thinking of removing Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty from my SB, but that makes the random fattie match-up a bit scarier (I still play 3 Fire/Ice MD).

I like grip more because your opponent can't respond to it, this is crucial against goblins/affinity/enchantress.

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Originally Posted by zulander

I like grip more because your opponent can't respond to it, this is crucial against goblins/affinity/enchantress.

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Yes, and it's also useful against Enchtantments.

Here are some Hypes against which Krosan Grip is good for:

1. 4color landstill. P.Deed gets raped by Krosan Grip. Through 8 Counters.

2. Counterbalance Engine. Even though no one in America maindecks Counterbalance (why not????) Krosan Grip is also good to handle CB because it got Split Second and with CC3, it's safer because not many Deck which run Counterbalance have a lot of CC3 cards, so it have to be a sharp thinking player or a lucksack.

3. Chalices can be handled easier.

4. Some of you are only running Sensei's Divining Tops without Counterbalance. In some situations, Gripping a SDT can be important since it will take the long-term-CQ away from your opponent.

5. Solitary Confinement, to which NQG loses automatically when you don't have a FoW or if you don't run Repeal.

Having grudges instead of Krosan grip automatically means that you can't do ANYTHING against Enchantments except of countering them. And I would never rely onto counters so much.

And it can't be countered when not running CB!!!111oneoneone

And that should be the biggest reason.

Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?

Not really important, but, can't u guys actualise the first page List for a tarmo list? xD

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?

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Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

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Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?

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Originally Posted by Adan

Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

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Do you mean that playing the 2-2 split between A. Grudge and K. Grip doesn't bring any advantages ?

If that's what you mean, then I totally disagree with you. Just read the previous posts and you'll find many examples that justify the need for both. Anyhow, you can conclude what you want - it's your personal choice, but as far as I'm concerned I'll continue playing 2 A.G + 2 K.G. in my sideboard.

What cards can be considered as the base of the SB ?

Personally I'd say:
4 Pyroclasm
2 K.G.
2 A.G.
x Pithing Needle (depending on the MD and metagame)
y Stifle (depending on the MD and metagame)

Some form of yard hate or the counter-top plan seems to be popular these days as well.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

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aTn said it right I guess.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

Some form of yard hate or the counter-top plan seems to be popular these days as well.

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I haven't been playing yard hate at all, but with the rise of Ichorid I'd probably consider it. I think Crypt is probably the right choice here.

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Originally Posted by zulander

Here's the list I'm currently working with.

Creatures : 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fledgling Dragon

Disruption : 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Draw : 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

Mana : 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Side : 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle


The sideboard needs some work, and the fire/ice slot is up in the air, but it's been fairly effective. Any comments/criticisms?

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Three Dragon seems definitely like one, maybe two too many. Also, I would add the fourth Daze before adding any Counterspell maindeck. 4 Fire/Ice seems too many as well. The Stifles main...I'm not a fan of them, but a lot of people are running them, so maybe they are ok. And, as mentioned above, running a 2/1 or 1/2 split between Grip and Grudge is better than 3/0.

By the way...I find that one Isochrone Scepter in the sideboard is great against a lot of decks, winning random matchups as well as the Control matchup. I also find that 4 Top + 4 Counterbalance main greatly increases the deck's power if you aren't playing a very aggressive version, because the Cantrips (I run only ten because of the four Tops) allow you to drop second turn Balance A LOT of the time, which often wrecks your opponent even if you don't get Top as well (and it's fun in the mirror of course).

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Also, I would add the fourth Daze before adding any Counterspell maindeck.

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I disagree. I run a 3/3 split and it works great. 4 Daze is often one too many.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

4 Fire/Ice seems too many as well.

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I'd run Fire/Ice as a 4-of or a 0-of. I don't run it, but it's a great card, and there's no reason not to play 4 if you're going to play it.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

By the way...I find that one Isochrone Scepter in the sideboard is great against a lot of decks, winning random matchups as well as the Control matchup.

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This just seems terrible.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

I also find that 4 Top + 4 Counterbalance main greatly increases the deck's power if you aren't playing a very aggressive version

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Now you're not even playing Thresh anymore. You're playing some sort of Counterbalance control. Counterbalance is terrible against Goblins, so it's bad in a lot of metas. 4 Tops also seems like overkill.

There are a number of issues for Mishra's Bauble being good in this deck:

Use bauble as one more draw spell; sure, portents and serum visions are better, but the bauble is free, draws you a card anyway and has huge sinergy with predict, allowing you to a fast predict setup because of its cost of 0. If you need information about opponent's deck and topdecks, this opens to a lot of tricks (more or less as portent, but at instant speed and spending no mana). Also, it doubles as tarmogoyf boost (your graveyard should have no artifact if you don't run baubles) and threshold boost.

Here is the list:

4 Fire // Ice
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sea Drake

3 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Stifle

Card choices:

Mishra's bauble: this used to be portent; it actually is a draw spell for free, so running 4xbauble is next to have a 56-card deck, and allows me to play an incredible land count of 16. It also has a lot of tricks with scry, predict and boosts tarmogoyf and threshold count.

Predict: 3x to maximize its card advantage in sinergy with magma jet, baubles, brainstorms and serum visions; it is uncommon to cast a predict and not being able do draw 2.

Sea Drake: this used to be fledging dragon. In such a low land count, sea drake is just more efficient as finisher; also, I need to run more blue cards for force of will count, since I don't run portent anymore; I run heavy burn spells, and killing the opponent is often a matter of efficiently mix up creature beats and burn.

Tarmogoyf: 4x is an auto include, its sinergy with cantrips is hotter than ever with baubles.

16 Mana sources (lands): the entire deck is designed to have a hand full of business spell and control/kill quick if needed, so the land count is pushed to the minimum. A single basic forest is needed for naturalizing blood moons and other ugly enchantments/artifact postboard, and/or still being capable of cast threats through wasteland disruption.

REBs: this replaces some burn (and maybe some counter spell) in any blue matchup

Tormod's Crypt: is useful versus so many decks, and can be sided in for one or two baubles, also.

Pyroclasm: the usual anti-aggro (goblins) answer.
Stifle, Winter orb: generic answer (otherwise meta-game slots)
Naturalize: one or two of these could be krosan grip(s), for fighting chalices and in other circumstances, but I feel that 3 mana is too much. I didn't test the grip in that slot, however.

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Now you're not even playing Thresh anymore. You're playing some sort of Counterbalance control. Counterbalance is terrible against Goblins, so it's bad in a lot of metas. 4 Tops also seems like overkill.

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It is still a deck very similar to Thresh since it runs many cantrips, Mongeese, Werebear, Goyfs, free counters...While Counterbalance IS bad against Goblins, I haven't lost so far against that deck, playing a Goyf or Mongoose to stall until I find a Clasm (which is found pretty fast with all the Cantripping...and Top is actually decent for this purpose too). I only play on MWS, so feel free to ignore this.

With Balance, four Tops is not too many (without, it is). Many games are practically over by turn two after Top and Balance, and frequently you assemble it on turn three with a little help from the cantrips.

As to the worth of the Balance strategy overall...I think people should try it, it's very powerful, and this is almost the perfect deck for it, as it can a) provide double blue easily b) assemble the combo pretty fast by digging through the deck c) play enough big creatures and burn to deal with creature rushes. As I said, I only play online (Magic-League and MWS), but so far the deck is running at 47-8, obviously counting only wins against real decks and not against Elf.dec. ALL of my losses came from Control decks (Loam-based Control, White Stax, Landstill). Those are very hard matchups, but they don't get much easier if you don't play the Balance.