Dragon stompy all in all is a very hard matchup for this deck
I think we should discuss Hellkite Overlord
8/8 flying trample haste for 8? Is this an auto 4-of?
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Dragon stompy all in all is a very hard matchup for this deck
I think we should discuss Hellkite Overlord
8/8 flying trample haste for 8? Is this an auto 4-of?
LOLWAT? Why wouldn't you be playing Akroma in those slots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s
EDIT: nvm. +2/+2 is kinda relevant... ofc, it's still less resilient than Akroma. ofc, regeneration... which isn't < Swords, but... iDunno.
Sorry but I really think that you overestimate SSS.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
You can NOT race agro and agro control with this guy, neither burn or combo.
you have said it : only better vs StP's decks and bounces, not so many decks...
About Bogardan Hellkite :
sry but its "only" a 5/5, and with Tombstalker in the area, it's not anymore a win condition. and so he's red ( < BEB )
Playing four of each (SSS , BogHell) completely reduces your possibilities.
Akroma remains the Queen, mostly thanks to her vigilance ability.
I'd like you to test Primus + Cabal and have your feedback =)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chado
Hellkite guarantees 5 damage, he doesn't have to turn sideways.
A turn two SSS is just as terrifying as an akroma, except it cannot be hit by swords...
Will people honestly be boarding in bebs against this deck? Seriously now.
SSS is a beast and should a 4 of MD. He doesn't get wheat'd or bounced or mazed. Lets face it the only thing that kills him is a bigger fatty, WOG, or an Edit w/o an imp or prowler out.
My thought is what to do in place of the brain gorgers and Titans. Woodfall Primus does seem very interesting with persist. Of course the other option is Hellkite Overlord, hasty trampling firebreathing regen is freeking crazy.
BTW when if overlord legal?
You guys stay blocked on " Turn 2 SSS : yummy ".
Frankly, what do you need in other cases ?
I mean in the real life when you can lose the toss, be countered, be in danger, etc.
let's take a look to the Decks to Beat of this forum :
LandStill
GoyfSligh
AggroLoam
VialGobs
DreadStill
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
Imperial Painter
I'd like to add BridgeChorid's deck to this list
Decks using Tarmogoyf and other big threats (steak or blasts), so they can race our brave SSS :
DreadStill
GoyfSligh
AggroLoam
VialGobs (say "hello" to PileD)
agro-combo, they can start comboing before receiving 3 beats :
BridgeChorid
Imperial Painter
MatchUp where SSS is really good :
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
LandStill
I just want to convince you that 4-of SSS or BogHell is a mistake.
just for fun :
3 BogHell
3 SSS
3 Primus
1 Akroma
please try this lineup.
Care to post your arguments?Quote:
Originally Posted by chado
From my previous post :
@all ,Quote:
You can NOT race agro and agro control with this guy, neither burn or combo.
you have said it : only better vs StP's decks and bounces, not so many decks...
About Bogardan Hellkite :
sry but its "only" a 5/5, and with Tombstalker in the area, it's not anymore a win condition. and so he's red ( < BEB )
Playing four of each (SSS , BogHell) completely reduces your possibilities.
I'm curious : vs wich decks do you test ? I can't understand your "4-of SSS or BogHell " thing
I think the Overlord deserves a slot. It's not as protected as Akroma, but it rapes. Flying, FS, Trample? Ghaf. FS seems a tad irrelevant, but trample certainly doesn't. Firebreathing is a moot point without red mana sources, but Regen isn't, however I don't see a huge reason as to why it would be necessary...
The biggest pro it has over Akroma is that you can have multiples down, althouth I don't recommend commiting that much to your board, as losing 16 life is kinda crappy to have it cleared via Damn/Wrath.
I think Green has become a relevent topic of conversation since the printing of tarmogoyf. I played it (green, not Goyf) way back in the day when the format was slightly slower so I had access to Deed (Damn wasn't printed either, and white was a LOUSY splash, always has been, always will be). Green also allows for LftL, which is relevant to a point. Also, dredging is an alternate means to getting fatties in the 'Yard. I think Ichorid would be test-worthy as well...An alternate means of winning/pushes in the last damage after a couple turns of an akroma turned StP. You have 8x-ish Creatures for sure to feed Ichy (PImp and Prowler), not to mention if you included Overlord.
There's the possibility of a recurring EE with LftL and Recurring Wastes (which *can* win you games) via Academy Ruins, letting you have a maindeck answer to DredgeIchorid, and I don't know if you use it, but I played Intuition as it's instant speed and is useful for more than Buried Alive is. If you worry about being milled by painter, every deck and it's mother is trying the 2x Gaea's Blessing SB strategy. While that sux for you, it sux worse to lose, and it gets infinitely better if you can get a fatty on the board. Also, a good point against Painter and etc. is that you run counters and blue. Blue=Stifle. Stifle is useful against a lot of stuff, and pitcheable to Force of Will.
What about Phyrexian Dreadnought? If you were to Unearth it, would it's CIP ability still trigger? I've been thinking about running a Reanimator list that was also playable as an aggro-control list. Unearth and Reanimate with little creatures like Tarmogoyf and PhyNought. Either way you can still run stifle effects with a few fatties.
Creatures--19
4x Tarmogoyf
3x 'Nought
3x Prowler
3x Wild Mongrel
2x SSS
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Eternal Witness
1x Wonder
Spells--24
3x Reanimate
3x Unearth
1x Exhume
4x Stifle
3x Intuition
1x LftL
4x Brainstorm
4x Cabal Therapy
1x EE
Land--17
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Island
1x Swamp
SB:
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Sundering Titan
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Krosan Grip
2x Echoing Truth
3x Aether Vial (Control Matchups where you can go into a more aggro list)
Why don't traditional builds run FoW? I don't get it. I see lots of blue spells in your list, and FoW would be good.
Anyway, the above list isn't optimal, of course. I'd like Duress/Thoughtseize somewhere in it...
The idea is obviously to go beats without EVER reanimating, but still having the option. Another great thing about this list is the ability to hardcast every single one of your creatures. Reanimate can grab out of your opponent's GY also, getting you options like their goyfs as well. Stifle is there for both your 'Nought, you can steal theirs, OR stifle their Deed since you run more little creatures than normal. Stifle helps against Painter, but I'd like to get a set of smothers in here. Smother is awesome in that you can kill their Goyf and then steal it. Same with their Sea Drake or anything else for that matter. Extirpate is an option in place of Crypts. In fact, I might even recommend it over Crypt. Extirpate screws dredge to going Ichorid Beatz (by hitting their Bridges) or even better by dropping a discard creature, discard your Therapy and hitting their bridges bye-bye plus nailing their blue spells or their LEDs. Then, you can hit their ichorids with your Extirpate. The only thing then to be scared of is a DR'ed Troll, which I have to admit is scary. I don't know how to get rid of it other than Reanimating a Primus. Then you can Persist it via a Therapy. The biggest problem I see is that your own Prowler gives them a discard outlet, and that sux. Or you could Reanimate one of their Grave-Trolls and chump-block with it while pounding with a Goyf. Yours won't be as big as theirs, but it gives enough time to win for you, as Grave-Troll Regenerates. Of course, if you run 3x Extirpate, you may be able to see 2, in which case you can hit Grave-Troll OR Dread Return after Ichorid.
LMK how the list looks and if it's at all viable.
Remember that Unearth cycles, so in a pinch it's a bit of CA. Not much, but a bit.
I am also a big supporter of Tombstalker as it's on-color, works well with your strategy of getting stuff into your graveyard and is difficult to kill in our metagame. A possibility in any traditional build.
Anyway, thought I'd offer my ideas. Remember, Brainstorm could I guess be Careful Study or whatnot, but I think in a build like this Discard becomes much less of a necessity. Not to mention that you already have 6 creatures to discard with and 4x Cabal Therapies, which can be used on yourself in a pinch.
I like that my list is MUCH less graveyard oriented.
Pce,
--DC
Once again man, a few of us have been playing this deck for a while and akroma is outQuote:
Originally Posted by chado
thats just the way it is
no serious list has it in it for a reason, just leave it at that.
yes it does.Quote:
What about Phyrexian Dreadnought? If you were to Unearth it, would it's CIP ability still trigger?
No room, not a part of the strategy.Quote:
Why don't traditional builds run FoW? I don't get it. I see lots of blue spells in your list, and FoW would be good.
btw, I like your hybrid list "agro Reanim". I'd play thoughtseize in it.
@Mr Wiggl3s : my meta seems faster than yours, so i can't resolve myself to play 4 SSS.
Lightning fast if you can resolve and keep in play an akroma :rolleyes:
I meant : "kill or be killed".
I'm used to face Tarmo Crusher/Terravor, Tarmo Stalker, Burn, Gobs, Ichorides.
Most people play more threats than removal, and they are right !
My meta is not so combo and almost nobody plays StP (and that's a good reason fro me to try Reanimator ^^ )
chado: Wouldn't you want 4 Bogardan Hellkites if your meta is full of critters. It can burn creatures too, like goblins. Iirc there was a dragon that dealt 3 damage to all creatures when it came into play? I'll look it up in a bit. If you truly believe your meta is all aggro then don't play SSS play overlord and Akroma, we'll say I told you so when you write a report and say my 2nd Turn Akroma was StPed for the game loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Yeah...I know. :wink:Quote:
btw, I like your hybrid list "agro Reanim". I'd play thoughtseize in it.
Help me find room. I want more input on it.
Pce,
--DC
I don't think the Nought Stifle combo should be in here because it's just pulling in too many directions, Aggro then Reanimator then a Combo finisher. I'd probably play this from your list
-3 Nought
-1 THerapy
+4 Thoughtseize
Stifle is still really good in the format so I think it would be a real surprise to see a stifle coming from a renaimator deck. It helps the combo matchup too.
YesSir, Thunder Dragon from Starter.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rack
Well, iDunno. It's just that, from playing Reanimator against various things, playing against it with a deck I figured would have a strong Reanimator MU (8 discard, 8 spot removal and 3 Edicts), and watching it roll over to threshold (CB is insane, and the lists without MD Repeal still perplex me...) makes me aware that Akroma just doesn't cut it. She doesn't and that's something that's important to cope with. She doesn't do anything when she hits the table if she's removed promptly (which is bound to happen), and isn't all that resilient. Honestly, she dodges about as much removal as Tombstalker or Mystic Enforcer. Bogardan Hellkite does 5 upon hitting the table and has a bit of versatility if you need it, and sweeps against agro, and SSS is immune to all but the least played and slowest types of removal (Edict and Wrath effects, respectively). Akroma has none of these atributes, and inasmuch isn't sufficient. If you can get away with playing it, then that's fine, but be aware that SSS and Hellkite are the optimal cards for the slots, at least in the current metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rack
And I think that you need more creatures than that in the list. Honestly, You have to have SOMETHING else besides Goyf and a few big beaters....I'd rather do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rack
-1 Wonder
-1 Exhume
-1 Mongrel
-2 Therapy
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Prowler
Wonder was a dumb idea that sucked in the 20 or so games (10 goldfish, 10 actual testing against Thresh, Goblins, Ichorid--3/3/4 respectively)--Won game one against Thresh and Goblins and won the match (lost a game to both) of both, not game 1 against Ichorid. Won 2 of the 4 against Ichorid by doing this with my SB:
-2 Crypt
+2 Extirpate
Crypt is tutorable, but Extirpate is just as good as long as you know what to hit, and the additional bonus of Stifle in the deck is good against Crypt as you Stifle it and 'Pate it.
Extirpate is also good against Combo. It's not quite as good as a full discard suite, but it *can* nail an unsuspecting combo player. You normally have to hit them when they aren't suspecting a T-Seize (i.e. when they don't have a blue open to Brainstorm what they want to keep away, and also when they have Chant or whatever they are using as protection; all in all a bad matchup, but hey, you can't win them all--I suppose something like Teeg would be acceptable to play. You could drop an Island for a Savannah or a Scrubland...or try just to reanimate it...Or play Platinum Angel...I know, this deck has been down that road before with no success--No protection + a meta full of Krosan Grips = crappy card...).
Reani-gro v. 1.2
Creatures--17
4x Tarmogoyf
3x 'Nought
4x Prowler
2x Wild Mongrel
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Eternal Witness
Spells--25
4x Reanimate
2x Unearth
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Intuition
1x LftL
1x EE
Land--17
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland/Savannah/Tundra (not sure which; check right after SB for reason for this)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Island
1x Swamp
SB:
3x Meddling Mage
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Extirpate
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip
The reason for the 1x White dual is for me trying to make room in my SB for either Teeg or for Meddling Mage, probably Mage. I dropped the Vials in favor of the Mages as they also reanimate and beat, but more importantly are also good against Combo. Most often you will name Chant as they will be aware of the Stifles in your list and will Chant before you can Stifle their Storm mechanic.
I'm not sure that the 3 reanimate targets are even entirely necessary in the board. I want to drop them and something else for a set of needles. I'd probably actually be okay with just 3x Needles. Well, shit. I just did it. Maybe the wrong call, but I find it difficult to believe that with all the creature beats I have that 2x SSS and a Woodfall Primus will not be enough. SSS is damn impossible to kill and Woodfall Primus they have to kill twice.
I'm just worried that 4x Reanimate, 4x T-Seize, and 6 Fetches are just too costly in lifeloss that I will be okay...Any thoughts? I know T-Seizes are great for making them toss critters so I can grab them, but I don't know if I'll live. Especially with no way to get life BACK. Is there a good creature besides Nishoba that gains me life? Maybe I should just put one in and always grab it...Think I will, I can always change it. Would Exalted be better than Nishoba? I don't think so, but lmk if I'm wrong...
Btw, the reason I need the white mana source is that the premise for the list was to make everything castable in a tight situation. It was to make sure that you never absolutely HAVE to get screwed over by GY hate, as it's so popular to beat Ichorid and the like.
I like reanimator, but it wasn't viable in it's traditional form in my metagame. Hell, even ICHORID runs graveyard hate. That sux. Oh, btw, I forgot, but 'Nought is good against Ichorid. You can play it for (1) and not stifle. It leaves play, they lose their bridges. Hehehehe, I forgot about that. That's funny shit.
If someone likes my build, I would ask that they give it a go at some small tournament just to see how it works for them. There's not a lot of actual tournaments around here, and I'd like to see how it competes. I'd really appreciate it, and it theoretically will do half-way decent.
Pce,
--DC
EDIT::: Would Trygon Predator be better in the Wild Mongrel slot? I know that there's not a lot of discard enablers, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be as much of a need for it...Plus, this list just rolls to CB, and even quite a bit to Chalice. LMK what you think about all of this. My posts have been quite long, and I apologize.
Hellkite is not so good since agro loam palys B and Terminate, also Survival's decks are now playing BGH and Shriekmaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rack
Plus : many deck plays Vindicate.
What I'm saying is that reanimator's player have to :
1- have unstoppable huge beaters
2- kill opponents board OR be able to attack and defend at the same time.
3- protect our baby beast
Akroma is bad when:
StP
Karakas
Can't be animated
SSS is bad when :
each time we are under pressure
BogHell is bad when :
opponent has removal
Mangoose
Tarmo are 5/6
Stalker in front
pro-red creatures
Now an interessant thing for Primus :
attacking with a 6/6 primus, then cabal him :
5/5 + destroying thing + untapped
I don't want to lose with reanimator vs AgroLoam, Rock or Survival.
if they kill hellkite reanimate him and do another 5 dmg? i do that all the time vs goyfs