Miracle Control

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valtrix

Speaking of 2cc...Any thoughts on the new Izzet Charm? (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1346042458)

It's definitely overcosted for any one of the abilities, but I think in the legacy meta having a card that is good against both unfair decks and aggro is incredibly valuable. It requires a red splash, which is a significant downside, although it might be playable as a 1-2 of. Don't have a ton of time right now for extended thoughts, but I thought I would throw it out there fore people to think about.

---

A friend of mine (TKdodo) is playing a miracle version with 3 SFM 1 Batterskull MD as wincon and a red-splash for redblasts in the sideboard. From my testing against him with RUG, the manbase is still very stable and could support izzet charm MD as a 2of.

Having a little bit overcosted additional removal for nasty creatures like Teeg or Delver or a more expesive spell pierce against combo does not hurt that much in this deck right? You keep all the mana open and either use it to counter, kill, spin SD.top, play clique,... But running counter-top & Miracles brings you sometimes in situations where you end-up with a bunch of "semi-dead" cards. In this situations the looting should be super good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valtrix

Speaking of 2cc...Any thoughts on the new Izzet Charm? (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1346042458)

---

I think we cannot make good use of Careful Studies, so this ability is like an expensive cycle bonus. With 4 Termini and retracable STPs that optional shock looks really meh, and a CMC2 Spell Pierce just feels wrong. Plus UR is way harder to get than UU for CS which can also be tough at times. So I agree that 1-2 copies should be the max for a possible MD inclusion - however this would mean that you don't draw them in the early/ early mid-game, consequently lowering the Spell Piercish impact.

That being said, I thought it could be a sweet Scepter target in the right shell. :-P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I imagine Show and Tell matchups are pretty bad, especially since it's so hard to float a 3 on top with Counterbalance. I imagine the plan here is to run Meddling Mage (for U/W), discard for (black splash variants), and REBs (for red splash variants). It still seems pretty miserable though, since your opponent will likely be bringing in REBs of their own. Is this another matchup with you just hope not to get paired against?

---

Oblivion ring and vendilion clique are both threes and are both really good against the what seems to be more popular omni-show decks. Not to mention how good humility is them. I have not had too many problems, however I have not played against the sneak and show versions.

Merfolk is harsh but very winnable with the right SB, nothing compared to goblins imo. I agree moat is the best hate card vs gobs, but you still have to a) resolve it through waste and port b) stabilise at high enough life to not get one-shot by a caverned / vialed in SCG c) hold a StP to take care of SCG as soon as it hits the board. Because of this and the price of moat, I've simply given up on this MU (it's not that much played anyways).

I believe this was already discussed but I can't find it in the thread : vs RUG, do you board out in priority jace, or FoW?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maëlig

I believe this was already discussed but I can't find it in the thread : vs RUG, do you board out in priority jace, or FoW?

---

In my experience siding out FOW is a losing proposition I personally sideboard out Counterspell and Spell Pierce and Entreat the Angels, although I discussed it with others and they side out Jace instead of Entreat. I like Jace over entreat because if pitches to FOW early game and needs no setup. I kept in one spell pierce by accident once and it came in handy countering FOW but all their threats are creatures so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac

This might not be right if they have Sulfuric Vortex - that card is kind of annoying.

---

This is why I leave in the o rings g2/3. Even if they don't side in / resolve vortex you can still use it to remove their threats, which obviously isn't a great tempo play but still better than siding in disenchants imo, plus removal density is key in this MU.

I'm curious about both of you siding out spell pierce, does everyone agree with this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maëlig

I'm curious about both of you siding out spell pierce, does everyone agree with this?

---

Pierce isn't amazing if they aren't running Stifle, but even then I like taking out Counterspells, a Jace, and 1-2 other cards before Pierces.

Hello guys, making a fast report here, won my weekly legacy champ today, I play with:



5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Portent



SIDEBOARD

1 Terminus
1 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage


I play against:

R1 vs MonoW: easy G1 and G2, just setup terminus and back with Jace to win!
R2 vs Maverick: hard G1 and G2, both without mana and MOM+Teeg :cry:
R3 vs Merfolks: easy G1 e G2, just swords and paty mutavaults and terminus or counterbalace + sensei the others!
R4 vs UR: Both G1 and G2 win the counter war and setup balance + sensei for the win

Top 4
Semi vs UR: IDEM R4
Finals vs Maverick: This time a play and not mana screw, win both games with the plan:
- MOM = Swords and path
- Teeg = Swords and path
- Others = Terminus and humility

Very happy with the deck :tongue:

Cya

Participated in a ~30 person SCG Invitational Qualifier today. Split 1st and 2nd, I got all the cash and store credit, he got the invite. Here's the deck, and below is a little report!

Main Deck

Lands
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives

Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

Control
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

Win Condition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

Sideboard
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Disenchant
3 Red Elemental Blast

Round 1: Mirror
Game one was funny - first five turns were "Land-Go". Then finally we got down to business. We each attempted a few threats, and they got countered, and I landed a Jace - From there he couldn't draw steam, and between Top, Couterbalance and Fatesealing crap off of the top of my deck I just drove it home with a Jace -12.

Game 2 was similar, I don't recall anything fantastic about either match honestly. I won again with a Jace ultimate.

Round 2: RUG
So the rug player wasn't all that good, nice guy though, and really fun games. Game one he mulled to 5, and I think it was 2 real cards and three land. Over the course of the game he ended up with his entire mana base in play while I drew control to keep him down. It was close in the end, but eventually I stabalized with a Jace in play, and from there I again won with a -12.

Game 2 I honestly don't remember - just that I won with another Jace ultimate...

Round 3: Enchantress
This guy was good - but my luck was holding. I answered his turn 4 Sigil of the Empty Throne with a turn 4 Jace. From there I managed to keep Enchantments off the top of his deck with Jace, and Swords all of the angels he did get. Another win with Jace!

Game 2 was relatively quick. He went first, and had lots of steam. I was behind the whole game. By the time I had some business to do, it was too late and I scooped.

Game 3 I took a very big risk, and cast a turn 4 Entreat off the top of the deck when my hand was Land/Land/FoW. It paid off, and he had no answers to the two angels until he was at 4. He o-ringed one, and I let it go. Then he tried the to o-ring the other, and I forced... That was game.

Round 4: MUD
ID for Top 8

Round 5: Burn
ID for Top 8

Quarter-Finals: Burn
This was the same guy I had just IDed with, and he had a game loss because of a deck registration error going into the Top 8. So even though it's an OK match-up I was pretty confident with two chances to just win. Game one he trounced me - expected as he was on the play.

Game 2 my Timely Reinforcements just blew the game out, and he never recovered from it. The six life was out of his range.

Semi-Finals: Maverick3
Game one was insane! It took a good hour and fifteen minutes to complete. Basically we jockeyed for the upper hand for a good 40 minutes. It ended up me with a Jace on board, and him slowly nibbling at it with a Scryb Ranger. I was coming out on top by fatesealing all his business to the bottom of the deck. Finally he tried for a Thalia, and I cast Brainstorm with no cards left in my hand. I don't recall the other two cards, but the top one was Shackles...... That sealed the game, and from there I took it to the win. This was honestly one of the best games I've ever played, it was fantastic.

Game two he kept a sketchy hand with a turn one Dryad Arbor. My turn one play was Swords on the Arbor. From there - he never drew another colored source, and I Jaced him to death.

Finals: Mirror
We decided to split - he offered me all of the prize money/store credit in exchange for the Invite to Atalanta - I couldn't refuse! Got myself a Tundra with the store credit, and $250 in my pocket!

Was a great tournament all together - my All Star was the Timely Reinforcements - no one saw it coming!

Congrats! Yeah, timely is fantastic. The casting cost is at a nice spot while being absolutely swingy in fast matchups.

Against tribal, since my SB is quite packed, I run a pair of EEs. The most dangerous card is vial. Uncounterability and a 2nd mana curve is just ridiculous. Also sweeping the board is also a good use of vial. I find that since I have 4 Snapcasters, 4 Terminus MD and SB EEs, I can survive long enough to pull off an Entreat.

Thats basically the game plan against tribal. Fight to survive until you can pull an entreat for 3/4 ++ angels. It's still pretty rough. This is the reason why I play 4 Snapcasters MD over a Snap/Clique split (I have cliques in board). Snap is usually a 2 for one against tribal. It's a very strong card in that matchup while still being good against combo and control. If you guys are having trouble against tribal, you might want to go back up to a playset of Snapcasters and Terminus MD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pherion

Finals: Mirror
We decided to split - he offered me all of the prize money/store credit in exchange for the Invite to Atalanta - I couldn't refuse! Got myself a Tundra with the store credit, and $250 in my pocket!

---

I would totally "sell" my Atlanta invite for a fraction of that if I could. :frown:

I haven't seen much of the Land Tax build lately. Wouldn't it just be better to do -2 Lands +2 Land Tax anyways? I think that version is extremely strong for its ability to generate advantage and not get destroyed by Wasteland.

You can't really just replace lands with land tax in my opinion. First off, you'll decrease your consistency of getting lands (granted, one landers are usually really risky anyway, but it definitely matters if you are considering mulligans more than the first). But the other main issue is that if you keep mana light hands with land tax, if land tax gets countered you can be screwed. Or, more likely, most decks can just function way better than us on one mana, so they can start creature tempo and pressure without having to play into land tax. Furthermore, land tax is pretty abhorrent against "unfair" decks like Sneak and Show, Storm, and the like.

In my opinion land tax makes your deck less consistent, which is a significant issue when considering the # of miracle cards already, as well as natural variance. At the same time, for this inconsistency you get hardly any power at all. Sure, go get yourself three basics, but in reality that's not really that strong even if everything goes right to let land tax activate. If you really want a card for lands so much, other options like Tithe and Life from the Loam are probably going to be better holistically (at the very least more consistent), even if loam requires a green splash.

How is everyone siding for show and tell decks (know and tell, omnitel, and sneak and show) the exact configurations seem difficult balancing answers and threats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

How is everyone siding for show and tell decks (know and tell, omnitel, and sneak and show) the exact configurations seem difficult balancing answers and threats.

---

for that match up I side in :

2 Orings
1 Clique
3 Thoughtseize
1 Peacekeeper

and side out :

4 STP
3 Terminus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

How is everyone siding for show and tell decks (know and tell, omnitel, and sneak and show) the exact configurations seem difficult balancing answers and threats.

---

I am still indecisive about siding out counterbalance though it is a bit slow and our 3 drops aren't that many. After sb, i will def side in pyroblasts and reb, maybe even surgical extraction. Humility helps here as well.

I think siding out terminus is standard but I have been considering siding out entreat the angels instead of terminus because terminus still gets emrakul. I think against omni variants it is definitely worse... Do show decks side out emrakul or shave a few copies when sideboarding?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

How is everyone siding for show and tell decks (know and tell, omnitel, and sneak and show) the exact configurations seem difficult balancing answers and threats.

---

As always, I'm a huge advocate of Porphyry Nodes and currently run 3 in my sideboard. The card is really amazing against any aggro strategies by getting time, possible CA, and dealing with tough creatures like nimble mongoose. That said, it has usefulness in more MUs, one of which is against (traditional) Sneak and Show. Sure, Grisel still gets to draw cards, but you can always deal with the creature they put into play. If it was Emrakul, well then your chances of winning just got a lot easier. Less useful against the Omni-show versions, but I find its usefulness in many matchups to be well worth it.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how poryphory nodes is good against sneak and show. The only scenario where it does anything is when they show and tell an emrakul. Granted in this spot it is a 2-1, but in all other cases it is a mulligan. I do not criticize the usefullness of the card against aggro decks, merely the suggestion of bringing it in for this matchup.

If I am wrong, please explain why.

It gives you uncounterable removal against a Show and Tell. This by itself is good. If they show and tell, there's a 50% chance that they play Emrakul, and if you nodes and Emrakul you can usually win the game easily. If they play Grisel, sure they draw 14 cards, but nothing else besides needle is going to stop that anyway (and you still need to deal with the creature). Sometimes they won't draw more gas though, sometimes it's just counterspells and some mana, so having an answer for show and tell is great.

It's not like I'm saying, "If you want to beat Show and Tell, play Porphyry Nodes!" Of course you will need counterspells and the like to beat Sneak and Show reliably. Nodes is a card that's amazing against aggro decks, and also has usefulness against Sneak and Show to supplement your sideboard strategy. Few cards are going to overlap the sneak and show and aggro matchups like this, which is mostly what I was pointing out. As such, you can use nodes as primarily an anti-aggro card, while still having it to supplement your sideboard strategy with more ways to interact with Sneak and Show.

Ensnaring Bridge or Humility seem much better against a resolved S&T. I'm doubtful that Porphyry Nodes is the best card for the job, but it does have some uses in other matchups like RUG and Maverick. I'm all for low mana solutions to big mana problems.

The new omniscience build is more resilient to humility though. If after show and tell, you manage to put it in play, they can still go via the storm route with burning wish into petals of insight into burning wish into grapeshot. That can be a bit troublesome

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1987

The new omniscience build is more resilient to humility though. If after show and tell, you manage to put it in play, they can still go via the storm route with burning wish into petals of insight into burning wish into grapeshot. That can be a bit troublesome

---

Humility>Porphyry Nodes against Show and Tell decks, at least that is what I gathered from the post prior to yours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joemauer

Humility>Porphyry Nodes against Show and Tell decks, at least that is what I gathered from the post prior to yours.

---

Yup humility is better than nodes cause with omniscience in play, there might not be another upkeep for you to trigger nodes if he plays emrakul.

Oblivion Ring is the best thing in those colors that can deal with all of the SnT targets. Angel of Despair would be a lot better for the clock, but it can't be cast unlike the Ring, which can also be brought in against other decks.

I'm currently playing (and very happy with) 2 oblivion ring MD, wondering if that will have to change after the printing of abrupt decay. More generally, it's obviously bad news for CB, how do you feel it will affect this archetype?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by menace13

Oblivion Ring is the best thing in those colors that can deal with all of the SnT targets. Angel of Despair would be a lot better for the clock, but it can't be cast unlike the Ring, which can also be brought in against other decks.

---

I run 2 Humility and 2 Oring SB for this MU and it basically comes down to properly judging what will come down with SnT.

Omniscience - best is to throw in Oring, Humility being second best
Emrakul - Oring on par with Humility. Humility gives you slight breathing room and you can Path/Sword humilitated Emrakul
Griselbrand - Humility is miles ahead of Oring, since they don't get to draw into Wipe Away/Wishes with Grisel through Humility
Sneak attack - Humility way ahead of Oring

I definitely side in 2 and 2, since Oring is another 3cc to float on top for Intuition/SnT counterbalancing.

I found Humility to be excellent in tribal MUs as well, needs a timely resolved Terminus first tho :)

Abrupt decay is certainly a strong card; however, the cost requirements are prohibitive for it to fit into any of the most commonly played decks. Sure, it is great in things like the Rock and Nic Fit, but I doubt that Decay is strong enough to push these decks into being played more. Additionally, if you think about the color combinations, most decks that play GB aren't very vulnerable to counterbalance anyway.

That said, I lied a little bit, because this card is powering up storm combo. Now they have an answer to Thalia, Teeg, and Counterbalance all in a single instant, and I highly expect these decks to SB 4 of this card. This is certainly is a problem for us, but at the moment I am unsure if it will be enough to push storm combo to be played significantly more. I think storm combo is still very winnable, even without balance in play though, so it's not the end of the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maëlig

I'm currently playing (and very happy with) 2 oblivion ring MD, wondering if that will have to change after the printing of abrupt decay. More generally, it's obviously bad news for CB, how do you feel it will affect this archetype?

---

UgB is more of a viable option because abrupt decay is a lot better versus cb than grip, while being better versus the rest of the field. Definitely makes cb worse in general because now there is three good answers to it (grip and ee are others). I think there will not be a very immediate impact because it does not just slip into a heavily played deck.

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/def...93994e37f6.jpg
..discuss!

I'll take the bait.

Terminus @1cc is really good to clear the board and push out but the problem is when the UW deck can't press hard enough after a Terminus the creatures keep coming back. The most obvious alternative, Wrath of God, wasn't playable because of Daze and Spell Pierce. You needed those Wraths agains RUG so Terminus was a better pick. Now we have a Wrath of God which can't be Dazed or Spell Pierced. Me likes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bilb_o

I'll take the bait.

Terminus @1cc is really good to clear the board and push out but the problem is when the UW deck can't press hard enough after a Terminus the creatures keep coming back. The most obvious alternative, Wrath of God, wasn't playable because of Daze and Spell Pierce. You needed those Wraths agains RUG so Terminus was a better pick. Now we have a Wrath of God which can't be Dazed or Spell Pierced. Me likes.

---

I don't think it is needed in UW Miracle control decks, at all. The 3+ Terminae (-ii? -uses?) should be enough to handle that problem just alright. RUG delver doesn't overextend so much that you would be unable to pick them off 1 for 1 with Swords/Paths and sweep Mongeese with Terminus, same goes for UWx Blades as those are as far as I recall the only important decks you need sweep the board that can counter you. For everything else, Terminus is about as good as it gets since tucking them on the bottom should give you plenty of time to just resolve Jace/EtA and win from there.

I think SupVerdict is good only, and only against Fish/Faeries and even then doesn't really solve the Mutavault problem that finely set up Miracle off Top does.

It's inferior to Wrath against Maverick post board, since it allows for Thrun to regenerate and basically against any swarm matchup that does not counter - Weenies, Affinity. Goblin et al. The only question here, for example related to Maverick, how many Judge's Familiars we can expect that deck to have post board when RTR goes live - in the current situation, I don't see SupVerdict having that big of an impact on the field

I like that it pitches to FOW, and is a pseudo-out against S&T. Uncounterability is relevant here. I could definitely see a split like 2 Terminus / 2 SV.
Edit: CMC4 also beats CMC6 CB curve wise.

I think the "Terminus vs Supreme Verdict is a deck distribution in your meta" question. In that Supreme Verdict shines against tempo and aggro/control decks that will Daze, Spell Pierce, or Stifle a miracled Terminus. As this cannot happen to Supreme Verdict it is likely better here (unless you are dead before you can get 4 lands online). However Terminus does give us nearly the same effect, a clear board, for much less mana invested and potentially a few turns earlier. I would think something like the following:

Supreme Verdict: RUG, BUG, Merfolk, Vaporblade (UW Tempo), etc.
Terminus: Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk (if you are worried about Mutavault) Elves, etc.

Thoughts?

Unless Merfolk make a really big comeback, I think it's a slam dunk for Terminus. A wrath for one mana is so much better than a wrath for four. Terminus itself dodges most of the countermagic in the format because it is so cheap and you will usually have the extra mana to pay for Daze, Spell Pierce, etc. The only commonly-played maindeck countermagic that it really fears is FOW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Justin

Unless Merfolk make a really big comeback, I think it's a slam dunk for Terminus. A wrath for one mana is so much better than a wrath for four. Terminus itself dodges most of the countermagic in the format because it is so cheap and you will usually have the extra mana to pay for Daze, Spell Pierce, etc. The only commonly-played maindeck countermagic that it really fears is FOW.

---

Fair enough. I think that there are arguments on either side regarding the specific build. Don't forget about Stifle.

Stifle can also prevent you from building up to 4 mana as well by hitting a fetch, so it's not completely dead against Verdict, either.

Also, I think we can't overlook the psuedo-instant speed terminus can get, which is a huge bonus. I can't tell you how many games having a terminus floating on my library with a top in play has been incredibly powerful. This lets you not tie up your mana during turns, allowing you to keep counter magic up or to clear the board during their turn and play Jace. It also is necessary against Aether Vial and occasionally haste effects (like sneak and show). Sure, uncounterability is nice, but I really think the cost of terminus, with the ability to be played at instant speed is much stronger.

Geist of saint traft sees a TON of play there for supreme verdict is better than wrath i.m.o. That might be a meta call though. I can't imagine having a problem playing it if you are playing with a stable mana base like that in u/w control. I could imagine thrun regenerating being an annoyance. However he is less scary than geist, with his flying and often unblockable token. At least I can chump thrun all day with elspeth tokens. I think we can all agree blue tempo is one of the biggest/most powerful decks out right now. A uncounterable wrath seems really good against them. The only argument for terminus that I can see is that the mana cost for the spell is cheap(sometimes) and that it can be played at instant speed (rarely). I can see not playing verdict but trying it deserves a try ATLEAST. Seems good bro.

*Edit*

I agree with Nilla that it is also really really really good against the folk. Although folk doesn't see much play.

*Edit 2*

Also I agree with Klaus you can pitch that mother flipper to force of will.

I can see myself playing a couple copies in the board, mostly to dodge stifle and surgical.