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I'm just curious, has anyone ever considered Avacyn's Pilgrim out of Innistrad? Just a dude who taps for 1 white mana, costs the same as a Llanowar Elf. You lose the exalted, and the ability to tap for green, but he offers a point of power in both defense and swinging in a group. Thoughts?
*as an aside, I have my Nobles. This is not a budget-related question.
Interesting one to think about, but ultimately I think Noble is still better. My experience with the deck is that oftentimes you're swinging with just one dude while the rest of your guys stay home and play defense or simply aren't worth attacking with, so the Exalted on the Hierarchs make them well worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
Also, NH gives you G, which is pretty massive for Ooze, flashing in a Scryb, and most of the cards. I would say def. NH over Pilgrim. If I were to cut NH for anything it would be Birds of Paradise. I currently run 3 NH, 1 BoP, since I am Punishing Fire build and the BoP comes in handy for the R mana and also for the flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
Two questions. I'm currently playing a list similar to your list. I run 2 Taiga and 1 Plateau and No Horizon Canopy. I'm wondering if you ever have problems coming up with red mana for PF or Pyro/REB? I realize Grove gives you 3 more R sources, so that's 5, but all 5 are non-basic and only 2 are fetchable. Especially against the Tempo-Thresh decks with Stifles and WL's, is it hard to keep a R source on the board? BoP helps. Second question - Could someone explain to me the beauty of the 1 Horizon Canopy? In straight GW, I could see running 1, 2, even 3. But in WGr, it seems like I am just taking damage from it. There have been too many opening hands where I have HC as my only W or G source and end up taking 3-5 damage. Very rarely do I KotR for it. I'm usually going for a fetch to thin my deck and pump KotR +2/+2 or grabbing a Bog, Grove, etc. I see how HC is good with LftL, but it seems like a card that doesn't make the cut in GWr. Final question - any GWr players consider a basic mountain? It ups the basic count to 3 and gives a permanent way to cast PF,REB, etc. In regards to PF, if you are using Grove as your only red source, then this removes the 'slow-death' option against control (pinging for 1 life a turn - if you are paying R to return and R to cast, they are gaining 2 life and you are dealing 2 damage, so it's a net, except to eliminate creatures). Thanks Guys!Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
I take it you are playing against Jeremie Ross on MTGO? I believe we have a mutual nemesis...muuahaha! He's by far my worse match-up online (1-4), although, ironically, I won the first match (I'm 0-4 since). I played Reanimator twice, U/W Stoneblade, Storm and one other deck - I realize this is a Maverick forum, so I'll keep it related to Maverick, however, he said his deck is usually 30-70 vs. Storm, but he double Cabal Therapied me game 2 (successfully hit 4 times), so that really hurt. Anyway, there is a really good article about how to play NO/Pattern Combo here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ern+of+rebirth and a tournament report here: http://blog.manatalks.com/2011/08/sc...gue-to-riches/ Reading the tournament report really helped me and there is a section called 'How to Play this Deck' under the primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
As Maverick players, we have 2 objectives vs. NO/PoR - 1) Get a Teeg in play 2) Handle the graveyard. We'll start with Teeg - if you can get him into play game 1, this shuts down Pattern of Rebirth, Natural Order and GSZ. Games 2/3, you will probably need a MoR or SoLaS or some other form of protection against Slaughter Pact. For objective 2), we can use hard (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Crypt, Bog) or soft (ooze) gy hate. The secret is to get one of these up and active and to remove a key piece of the combo - the combo usually goes, hulk (sac), body double (copy hulk), sac, reveillark and mogg fanatic into play. Sac fanatic and reveillark, bring body double (copying reveillark) and fanatic back into play. So, if you can remove hulk (only on the initial copy with body double) or reveillark, body double, or fanatic, it breaks his combo.
Additionally, you have a few other options. 1) Pithing Needle on Fanatic (he runs Pridemage, so this won't work forever) 2) Leyline of Sanctity (same with Pridemage) 3) Dampening Matrix - I seriously thought about running this - also shuts down SFM/Pridemage - only downside is it costs 3, but it seriously hinders his deck - the only sac outlet becomes Cabal Therapy.
Also, be mindful of nuking his creatures in response to Pattern of Rebirth being played - note, if he uses Rector, it actually places Pattern of Rebirth into play attached to the creature, so this doesn't work (I made this mistake). Aven Mindcensor greatly helps out against this deck. Also, be mindful of the creatures/effects that require 'leave play' vs. 'goes into the graveyard'. Protean Hulk, Academy Rector and Pattern of Rebirth all require the creature to die (hit the yard), so if you remove from game with STP or PTE, no triggered effect. Reveillark, however, is 'leave the battlefield', so that is going to happen if it goes to exile, hand or 'yard. Also, if he draws a Progen, Reveillark or Body Double, he has to get it into his yard, either via Fauna Shaman or Cabal Therapying himself, so be mindful of this (unless he's running Body Snatcher, which most the decks don't appear to be).
Anyway, hope this helps. Knowledge is power. Our best bet as Maverick players is to first land a Teeg and then search out some grave hate before Protean Hulk can hit the board and be sacrificed (he's running some mana accelerators, but without NO/Pattern of Rebirth, it should take him until at least turn 5 - by that time, you should have active KotR with bog or Ooze).
Try aura of silence. I had it in the board for some time, it's a very decent tutor-target against a number of archetypes (enchantress, stax if you can slip in the tutor, affinity if it comes down quick enough, storm combo, hive mind), and you can still bring it in without the tutor against stuff like CB-thopter.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
I agree with you that HC doesn't make the cut in GWr lists. I'd rather play more duals or fetches for a more stable manabase. Problem with the basic mountain is that it's rather difficult to fetch and can make some hands unplayable (if we are missing the initial green for a NH for instance). I don't think we should worry too much about our access to red. We have minimum 10 lands producing red (3 grove, 1 plateau 1 taiga, minimum 5 fetches), and we can always GSZ on birds or KotR on a grove. I think that's plenty enough for 3 red cards MD, even though they are quite mana-hungry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
So today, I've been testing Glowriders maindeck instead of the Aven Mindcensor slot.
My problem with Mindcensors is that they just never did enough for my taste. By the time you get them out, your opponents have oftentimes already done the majority of their tutoring / fetching.
I had been testing Canonists main, thinking they would be good against Snapcaster decks, but what tended to end up happening is that they eat a removal spell, Snapcaster gets used anyways and Canonist doesn't really do what we wanted to do.
My theory on Glowrider is that it's more generally useful (such as against control decks or decks that run a lot of spells, ie Tempo Thresh). Costing 3 is both a good and bad thing these days - sure it's more expensive, but it also dodges Spell Snare.
I ended up playing against Elf combo, Bant Aggro, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, then split in the T4.
Against Elf Combo, I was of course really kicking myself for not having Canonists main, but Jitte + our removal ended up being fine. Canonist + Etutors from the board worked great as well.
vs Bant Aggro, the Glowriders got boarded out as they have too many creatures plus Nobles help vs Glowriders.
vs Merfolk, I actually "got" my opponent some G1 when he was tapped out, then I played a Glowrider, which resolved, then a creature, which he tried to then Daze. Those came out postboard.
vs Canadian Thresh: I kept them in as an experiment. I think it's not amazing, but better than the things I took out (@Rukcus: With our discussion, I actually just took out both my Pridemages and the SFM's, leaving in all the equipment to be used naturally). G2, the Glowrider was extremely brutal since I managed to resolve a Choke as well.
This obviously needs more testing, but I thought I'd share my thoughts to bring up a card for discussion.
Aside from being able to disrupt C.T. with Choke/Glowrider, did you feel that the deck was still aggressive enough vs them? Did the list run any Grim Lavamancer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I'm starting to agree with _erbs that the best way to combat CanThresh is with AEther Vial. I don't think this deck wants it however, but G&Taxes uses it for much benefit. I'm just very hesitant to give up on the GSZ engine and its ability to pull out Ooze which is by far the best new card for the deck.
From the brief chatter I see on the Tempo Thresh thread, Punishing Fire seems to be a solid way to deal with that MU. Give it another try, perhaps? I'm going to try and hunt down a few Groves.
The list I faced actually was running Lavamancers and Mongoose. Lavamancer I just plowed. Mongoose was a pain because it was blanking all the removal I brought in and I could only finally deal with it when I eventually got a Knight down.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
In that matchup, I actually feel we are the control role. They have to Aggro / tempo us out before we stabilize because our mid-game guys (Knights, Thrun, Scavenging Ooze, GSZ) tend to trump their creatures and our removal spells are just better.
Punishing Fire Maverick is the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck in the finals of Worlds. Here's the list:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Purify the Grave
1 Pyroblast
2 Qasali Pridemage
It will end up going head to head with a Sneak and Show deck that the Japanese team is playing.
Well, that should be a fun match-up. Go Norway!
The list looks solid, but my main complaint with the Fires builds right now is that the threat density is low (20 creatures). The only real threats the deck plays are KotR, and everything else is Voltron (assemble pieces together to get a threat).
If anyone is available on MTGO, I'd like to test out the deck more.
That has been my issue with the PFires Maverick as well. Having your Groves get Wastelanded also sucks too. Loam helps, but we generally can't count on getting it.
I’m just back home after a 126 players tournament in Legnano. First of all, thanks everybody for the feedbacks on my sideboard plan, your help has been precious.
For today, I was expecting a lot of Canadian and Reanimator, and not so many combo. Therefore, I opted for Punishing Maverick, tweaked in this way:
4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
I switched my last Horizon Canopy for the 3rd Savannah, agreeing with Water_Wizard and Maëlig, it doesn’t make the cut in Punishing Mav.
Then, even if I’ve always been a great fan of Aven Mindcensor, I cut my last 2 for… 2 Tarmogoyf. I never wanted Goyf in GW Mav, but in Punishing it’s another story: more threats, and cheap ones, just requiring one green, work very well here. The 2x is a meta call, considering that I was expecting a lot of Canadian.
Mini report:
Round 1: Reanimator 2-1
Game 1 on the draw, I topdeck an Ooze but he has Jin-Jitaxian and an Angel of Despair in play before I can do anything. 0-1
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile
+1 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Thorn of Amethyst
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Sylvan Library
My hate crashes him 2 times.
1-0-0
Round 2: Junk (without SFM) 2-0
Maybe it’s just my Junk opponents not so good with their deck, but this matchup continues to be very easy for me. Once removed their dark confidant, I never feel any pressure. Side:
+1 Path to Exile
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg
My Sword of Light and Shadow of course is quite nasty, and my knights + Wasteland never let him reach 6 mana for Deed for 3 around my Pridemage.
2-0-0
Round 3: Canadian Threshold 2-0
I easily overwhelm him, as expected. Side:
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Sylvan Library
3-0-0
Round 4: GWb Maverick 2-1
This guy is splashing black for Dark Confidant and Perish (!) in side. Game 1 I cannot deal with his double MoR. Side:
+1 Path to Exile
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg
Game 2 and 3 I StP and burn all his early stuff and then crash him.
4-0-0
Round 5: UWr Blade Control 2-0
Game 1 he removes a lot of my stuff, he has to bounce my only knight with Jace, I fry Jace @ 2 with Punishing Fire and then win. Side:
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Maze of Hit
(I can see someone suggesting to keep the sword, but Stony Silence is much stronger here, and the SFM package is less useful than the other cards which I didn’t side out to make room for the obvious hate).
Game 2 I attack his manabase while beating. He doesn’t live long enough to cast his Wrath of God...
5-0-0
Whoa! Another one and it’s almost T8! But…
Round 6: UB Dreadnought 1-2
Game 1 I cannot understand what the heck is that. I see countertop, Go for the Troath, Jace, Snapcaster, but also Wasteland and Stifle. Mah? However I win. Side:
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Ethersworn Canonist (for Snappy)
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Maze of Hit
Game 2 he StP-Perish all my stuff and plays 4 Wastelands in a row (!), killing me with a Snapcaster and Dark Confidant.
Game 3 I start quite well, then he plays Go for the Throat on my Knight and then… Pyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle! I wasn’t expecting the lobster at all, and I die 2 turns later.
5-1-0
Round 7: Canadian 0-2
We were playing in the same table the turn before, so we know the matchup. Game one I keep a hand with Windswepth Heat, Karakas, Dryad Arbor, 2x Mor, StP and Hierarch. Seems not bad; I fetch a Plains but he kills both my MoR, wastes the Karakas, bolts the Arbor and I never draw any other land. Urgh. Again, side:
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Sylvan Library
Game 2 I keep a good hand, I don’t remember exactly but I fry a Delver, counter another one (with Pyroblast) and have a 6/6 Knight in play, which he double bolts to survive. But then… I only draw lands (something like 5 in a row…) and die to manaflood.
I’m very disappointed… I’m missing T8 by losing to a very easy matchup. Too bad!
5-2-0
Round 8: Elf Combo 2-1
Oh wow, this is the first time in my life I play this matchup :tongue:
Game 1 he’s quite unlucky, he just draws a Savannah which I waste immediately as I remove his elf, and when he could restart I’m already there with a charged Jitte. Side:
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Maze of Hit
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Scavenging Ooze
Game 2 he glimpses on turn 2 and plays a lot of stuff. When he passes I tutor for Canonist and play it in my 2nd turn. He immediately topdecks a Viridian Shaman (!) and plays Emrakul one turn later.
Game 3 I have an almost perfect match with T1 MoR, T2 Canonist, then SFM into Jitte, Ranger to untap the MoR, a second Canonist…
6-2-0
So I finished 11th and won 4 Maelstrom Pulse. Top 8 was:
1) Canadian
2) Canadian (the guy who beat me on turn 7)
3) BU Dreadnought (the guy who beat me on turn 6)
4) TES (played by a girl! Wow)
5) GWr Maverick
6) Big Zoo (w/Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf)
7) Stone Blade
8) TES
In the end, I can say the deck is strong. It’s a while I’m playing it now and I have to say that the manabase is not an issue. The few times when I’ve been mana-screwed or flooded, it would have been the same if I had played GW. I also had no problem with wasted Grove of the Burnwillows, half of the few times it happened I just fetched for another one with a knight, and anyway even if you’re not recurring it forever, Punishing Fire is still a solid removal.
And, DEFINITELY, if you want the best configuration against Canadian, stop wondering, it’s Punishing Mav.
@Morte
congrats on the strong finish !
how was the rebs on the SB, do you think is it worth the slot, any plans on increasing its count ?
we also have a upcoming tourny in our place i'll post the result after, but i totally revamped the mav list , i think you guys will call me crazy for doing it, but based on playtesting its solid.
REB is great. Yesterday I sided in REB in 5/8 of the matches, and lost only to blue – this has no statistical significance ofc, but they say blue rules everywhere… Yes, probably I’ll try to increase the REB number to 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
I’m also interested in the 2 sideboard Blood Moon (!) of the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck. It seems powerful but really hard to manage with just 2 basics, I can see it as an improved Choke effect, devastating against 3+ colors deck, even if non-blue. Any feedback? When would you side them in?
Research & innovation are always welcome! Good luck :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
The Blood Moon idea strikes me as latent potential for Fire Mavs, but as Morte describes, the low level of duals hurts this plan. I do like that Blood Moon ends up being better than Choke across multiple decks.
I was thinking yesterday about an old card that hasn't seen play, which would be just as good against contorl: Winter orb. Maverick is mostly immune by running Scryb Ranger, Noble Hierarch, and KotR to cycle through tapped lands. The issue I see with this, is that KotR should really be finding Wastelands, and at that point Winter Orb won't be as effective against opponents with 1-3 lands.
Thoughts?
Good idea! What control decks would you board it in against? U/W Stoneblade? Against this deck, Choke seems like a better option. Plus, Choke dodges Spell Snare. I only play online, but it seems like I run into a lot of WG/WGr Maverick, U/W Stoneblade, URG Tempo and Burn. For me, Choke seems like a better option. I'm curious to see what in your meta your plan to board Orb against.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
There is a dissynergy wit Dryad Arbor and an awesome synergy with SoFaF and to a lesser degree Gaea's Cradle and Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger (as you mention above). I think the inclusion of Orb in the sb calls for at least an additional Ranger in the md. Also, Maze of Ith probably moves out of the board due to dissynergies with Orb.
Orb is not an answer for Punishing Mav decks, as the Punishing engine is too mana intensive. Punishing Mav crushes URG Tempo, as bakofried and Morte note above. Punishing Fire kills Insects, Lavamancer and Snapcaster. Goyf and Nimble Mongoose are no match for KotR on the ground. A lot of times, they can't even touch your KotR with Lightning Bolt or Dismember. With Bog/Ooze, you can make 'Gofy, Mongoose small or disrupt Snapcaster. I've been able to kill 'Gofy with PF and selective graveyard removal. However, I have lost to Tempo a few times - mainly due to mana issues and a few amazing draws by my opponent. For the mana, as Ruckus points out, it's important to get your basics on board - I misplayed a few of the early games and suffered to some 3-wasteland 2-stifle draws by my opponent.
I run a deck similar to yours. The first thing I remove against U/W Stoneblade is Swords to Plowshares. I usually go -4 STP, -1 Karakas/Teeg (I keep Teeg if I expect WOG/Jace/Elspeth, although he slows down our GSZ and a lot of time they take out FOW. Karakas protects our Thrun (bounce him to WOG), but doesn't help out against their deck - I'm not going to bounce their Clique) +2 REB, +1 Thrun, +2 Choke. I find PF is fine for handling Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Clique, etc. I'm not going to STP these small guys or Batterskull. I run 2 Pridemage main (found I was putting the 2nd in every game, so I just left it in). I'll post my decklist later so we can discuss, but it's your 75 +/- 4 or 5 cards. Also, I put the Horizon Canopy in (currently 2 Savannah, 1 Taiga, 1 Plateau) and it worked well this weekend (only played 3 matches, but it was nice to eot KotR for Horizon, sac, draw, KotR gets +2/+2 and it also combos well with LftL + protects LftL from non-Extirpate gy hate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
Thanks, blood moon is really devastating, thats why decks like imperial painter are such a pain to play against, in my traditional mav list in where i ran 4 basics my win % against moon effect is just around 33%.., if you are decided to play blood moon i think you have to re-tweak your deck to maximize its potential.., and im guessing birds of paradise would be the mana dork of choice over noble , in the times i was running fire mav my mana dork config was 2 birds 2 noble then 3 birds 1 noble, in those config i was running 1 taiga 1 plateau and 4 burnwillows and 4 fires.Quote:
I’m also interested in the 2 sideboard Blood Moon (!) of the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck. It seems powerful but really hard to manage with just 2 basics, I can see it as an improved Choke effect, devastating against 3+ colors deck, even if non-blue. Any feedback? When would you side them in?
Research & innovation are always welcome! Good luck :smile:
Maybe adding aether vial in the mix for the blood moon plan could work as you can still cast creatures and burn them with fires or maybe more red removals.
Nice to know that rebs are doing its job...
As for my new deck here is it comments and suggestions are welcome.
Lands [23]
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port
1 karakas
1 gaea's cradle
1 maze of ith
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 plains
1 forest
1 horizon canopy
Creatures [26]
3 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
1 birds of paradise
3 qasali pridemage
3 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
4 kotr
3 flickerwisp
2 gaddock teeg / terravore / mirran crusader
Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
264505, Thanks for sharing the Norwegian Team's List.Quote:
Originally Posted by 264505
I'm not sure of the format of worlds, but if you know you are going head to head with Sneak and Show, why not a little more hate? Why did the Norwegian Team decide against an Enlightened Tutor sideboard? I play online and have faced Sneak and Show and I recommend Ensnaring Bridge. Your guys can get under it with exhalted and it stops their guys in their tracks. Other than a resolved Teeg, you have no answer to Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle also works against Sneak Attack.
Quick question- What are you bringing the Batterskull, Purify the Grave and Blood Moon in against?
Well, they don't get to change their decklists, so that was what they played throughout the Team swiss rounds as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I'm not sure with Batterskull but Purify the Grave is mostly vs reanimator. It also gets boarded in against dredge, but is not as strong there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Blood Moon is good against 3 colored decks. BUG, RUG and other decks run with a very low number of basic lands. I would not board them in versus decks that run Noble Hierarch though.
Hey guys, I haven't played any mtg in the last 2 months and I'm preparing for a tourney that's in a few weeks. I have a few questions about the current state of Maverick:
Which singletons are necessary now? Terravore? Teeg still? Thrun still? Is 2 Qasali the right number now? How about 2 Ooze?
Also, anything major i'm missing from this board:
2 K.Gripp
2 E.Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Bojuka Bog
Sorry for all the questions and thanks for any help.
Personally, I moved Bog to the main because I was facing so many KotR's. If you anticipate a lot of mirror matches, I would move Bog to the main, because it allows your KotRs to wreck their KotRs. Bog in main also help improves the 1st game against Reanimator/Dredge and can surprise Snapcaster/Goyf/Nimble Mongoose. I run 1 Teeg Main and Thrun in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
Here's a link to a list ruckus ran 2 weeks ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ural-Wasteland It's a very well-tweaked list and I would run something similar with perhaps a few small changes for your meta.
Really depends on what you want to do. Some people also like Scryb Ranger as a 1-of also.
Your sideboard looks fine. If you want a little more combo hate, you can also throw in a Thorn of Amethyst as well.
Esper - thanks - like I said, I wasn't sure of the format, but this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification! Personally, I've had Batterskull in the main to the board to now completely out. I was facing a lot of Burn and losing, so I put Batterskull in the main, but found it was oftentimes dead or just sitting in my hand when I drew it without SFM or SFM was killed, and then I put it in the board, but found my deck was too equipment heavy (I only run 2 SFM and had 2 equipment main and 2 board), so now I removed it all together and am relying on Ooze, Jitte and STPing my own creatures to survive against burn. Ooze is my favorite, as he removes Hellspark and prevents Grim from activating, if they play Grim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Seems like the proper equipment and when to side the equipment package out is something that is being tweaked. SoFaF, SoFaI, SoLaS, Jitte, Batterskull are all getting play and are boarded out against different decks. It seems many players remove the equipment package against UW Stoneblade, but I think STPs should come out and equipment should stay in, if anything so you can legend-rule their jitte. If they get active Jitte, our deck is just about over. I run punishing mav, so I still have some removal after the STPs come out.
Currently, I'm running 2 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFaF. I'm intrigued by ruckus' running of SoLaS and thinking about working 1 into my board. It takes care of the STP/PTE hate and recurring Pridemage/Dryad Arbor is good. It also has life gain to help out against the Burn decks I mentioned above. However, since I already have Prop Black from SoFaF, it seems redundant. I thought about putting SoFaI in the main, like Ruckus did, but there are strong synergies between SoFaF and Punishing Grove. With the untap all land trigger on the stack, you can use Punishing Fire a few times. This usually occurs in games in which you are already ahead, so maybe it is overkill. I like SoFaI for the card advantage, burn, protection from Jace and protection from Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt, so maybe I'll play this, but I wonder if I need the extra removal since I already have 4 STP, 3 PF, 1 Jitte and 2 creatures with Prop Blue (Rangers).
What's everyone's thoughts on when to use SoFaI and when to use SoFaF? SoFaF in punishing mav and SoFaI in 'traditional' (u/g) mav? SoFaF if you expect a lot of ANT/TES (or is it too slow?) and BUG? SoFaI if you expect URG Tempo? What does everyone think about the Prop Black swords against Batterskull? SoLaS against U/W Snapcaster to combat STP/PTE and Batterskull?
I currently also have cut Batterskull from my 75 completely. I could see running it in maybe the PFires builds though since you have less creatures.
My equipment package is currently 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI, 1 SoFF, 3 SFM all main.
I generally get SoFI if I either need cards or need removal (and have already gotten my Jitte out).
SoLS is good defensively, but that white ability is so meh...
I'm also playing Rukcus' Gaea's Cradle, so that makes SoFF even more nuts. The other day, I got some sick use out of SoFF + Maze of Ith to give 2 of my guys vigilance!
Oh yeah, I forgot to add - in our deck SoFI also adds quite a bit of defensive ability since we have a lot of X/1 guys and a regular sword won't protect them from Lightning Bolts. I've found this particularly useful against Canadian Thresh.
In my build, I could have run with SoLS instead of Batterskull and probably still end up fine. Terravore and Batterskull play out in the same role - breaking through the stalemates. The Sword of X/Y issue is something that needs to gel with the pilot however. I prefer SoFI and SoLS because they provide the relevant protections in a neat package with useful abilities.
Nail on the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Since I don't play PFires, I have no need for SoFF; moreover pro:green isn't necessary in Maverick. This leaves only Pro:Black as the relevant protection. Same with SoBM, pro:green is wasted and the triggered abilities are actually useless. That leaves only 3 remaining swords, and the SoWP is just all around terrible.
For equipment packages, we could play:
1. Umezawa's Jitte
2. Sword of Fire and Ice
3. Sword of X/Y or Batterskull [optional if playing the 3rd equipment]
The Vegas list was anticipating a lot of CanThresh, Merfolk, and Burn (Arizona players...). SoLS in the sideboard for pro:white/black mainly against Junk/Deadguy lists, and recursion 2ndly. I could see playing SoFF in a metagame that has a lot of Junk and BUG lists as well - but from any indication the BUG lists are moving more towards a creature base that is Goyf + :u: creatures, rather than Tombstalker.
The only change I would make right now to my Vegas list is to cut 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Eternal Witness for a 2nd Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger and possibly 1 Tarmogoyf. I think that the Scryb Ranger is vastly more important than Quirion Ranger specifically for Flying and Pro:Blue.
Terravore to help break apart the mirror/stalemate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
Teeg is awesome against UW control and Combo.
Thrun is awesome against anything mid-range, but terrible against combo/reanimator.
The two Oozes are definitely recommended against the majority of the field, and especially if you anticipate any form of G/Y deck.
I saw a list up-thread that put in 2 Tarmogoyfs in anticipation of Tempo and aggro. I think this is the right call for the right metagame.
The SB looks complete, and I would consider finding room for Thorn of Amethyst. The Dueling Grounds looks a little suspect, which matchups are you concerned about that this card would be relevant? I can't imagine you would also board into the Enlightened Tutors to find it against the creature feature.
How actively do you seek Teeg against UW control? Against combo, I'm dropping Teeg or Canonist as quickly as possible, but against UW control, a lot of times I have been boarding Teeg out.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Here is my reasoning: Pre-board, the average UW deck has 7-8 spells Teeg will stop (4 FOW, 3/4 Jace and maybe Elspeth or Repeal (and I guess a hardcast Batterskull)). Post-board, they are likely to bring in 1-2 WOG, perhaps an Elspeth and maybe an extra Batterskull (plus 4 PTE) and they are taking out 4 FOW, maybe a Counterspell or two, and a Clique. So, post-board, they are going to have 4 Jace, 2 WOG, 1 Elspeth and 2 Batterskull. Teeg shuts down 4 of our cards (GSZ). I like Teeg shutting down WOG. I also like that he stops Jace, but I run 2 REB, so I have some answers to Jace.
ruckus, my question to you is: how actively do you bring out Teeg against U/W combo? What is your strategy as far as protecting him? I guess with SoLaS in your sb, it is easier to protect Teeg from STP/PTE.
Presently, I've been playing my creatures out conservatively against U/W Snapcaster. As Punishing Mav, I have the backup plan of pinging for 1 point a turn. I'm finding if I just drop 1 or 2 creatures at a time, I can can attack for 2-3 a turn and whittle them down.
I'm just now realizing, I don't have much of a plan against U/W, other than not playing out too much and getting a MoR to stick.
Teeg is good, but he's vulnerable to Snapcaster on the attack (if you don't have any exhalted triggers). What I'm trying to ask is: "What is your plan against U/W?" and "Do you put all your eggs in one basket with Teeg?" I realize it depends on board state, your hand, etc., but in general, what would you like to do?
I'm about 500 vs. U/W, probably slightly over. I feel like they win when they draw well or I draw too much land (I guess this could be said about any match-up), but that the Mav v. U/W match should be about 60/40 or 55/45 in Mav's favor - we have more threats than they have answers, we have some nice tricks with LftL and Sylvan Library, and we should be able to out tempo them (mid-range vs. control)
Hi;
Reading the primer, and most of the thread (including the last few pages), I have to ask- are dark confidant variations still viable?
Thanks!
Confidant is weak against Tempo Thr€shold which is seeing a lot play everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran
My decklist, as long promised... You will see, this is very similar to Morte's list, with some small tweaks for my meta. I play purely MTG Online. I'll discuss my reason for my picks, which cards are near misses and which cards I'm considering cutting. First, the deck:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Serenity
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
Comments on the decklist:
Why do I play 2 Qasali Pridemage main? I found I was putting him in every game, so I just decided to leave him in. Even on the draw, he's a 3/3 beater. I also ran into situations where I would play out an early Pridgemage and it would die (I have no recursion Eternal Witness or Sword of Light and Shadow main), so the 2nd Pridgemage is nice as a GSZ target.
Why no Maze of Ith in my 75? This is one of the cards that is 'on the cusp'. I like that it can give my guys vigilance, stop an opposing Batterskull, or deny a Etched Champion equipped with Cranial Plating when they have Metalcraft. However, it's rarely a card I like to draw (good as a KotR tutor effect, but tough in your opening 7 or off the top), it is susceptible to Wasteland (which seems to be on the rise), and it seems a highly reactive card- I view Maze of Ith as a card that will prevent you from losing the game, but it won't win you a game.
Some deck decisions: Currently, I'm only running 5 red land sources and 1 BoP. Lots of the decks are running an extra Taiga or switching Noble Hierarch(s) for Birds of Paradise. I have played very few games with this set-up (only 5). Under the previous set-up (with the extra Taiga, I only ran into problems against URG Tempo). Their combinations of Wasteland and Stifle keep red lands off the board and prevent us from fetching more. Life from the Loam helps bring these red sources and Stifled Fetchlands back.
(Selected) comments on the sideboard:
Ethersworn Canonist I'm only running 1 because I haven't had that much of a problem with Storm and I can tutor for her.
Serenity I keep the one in the board for Enchantress, Stax and Affinity. These are decks I occasionally play against Online and this 1-of makes otherwise though match-ups easy. My only other removal to enchantments and artifacts are 2 Qasali Pridemage, so the Serenity helps a lot, in the limited cases I've used it.
Ensnaring Bridge is for Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Reanimator has answers in the forms of Angel of Despair and/or Terastodon, but Ensnaring Bridge will usually buy you some time or they might even board out their threats. Likewise, Sneak and Show is unlikely to bring in artifact hate against Maverick. I also considered Pithing Needle against Sneak and Show for Sneak Attack. I was in a situation, where an opponent dropped a Sneak Attack, but was tapped out. I have an Enlightened Tutor in hand and 3 land on board (2 tapped with a W open) and no land in hand. He has 2 Mountains, so I couldn't Waste his Red sources. Also, Karakas and Phyrexian Metamorph won't work, because if I bounce with Karakas, he'll just replay and I can't play Metamorph at instant speed. So, after this game, I decide to run Ensnaring Bridge in the board. It is yet to be tested, but I think it's our best option.
Tormod's Crypt Wheel of Sun and Moon. I rarely bring these in because I rarely play dredge or other graveyard based decks. Since I stepped up to 2 Scavenging Ooze in the main, I may drop to 1 piece of gy hate in the board. However, without Gaea's Cradle, if they have a good dredge, I could face the possibility of not having enough G mana to remove all of their threats with Ooze.
Choke I'm only running 1. I've run 2 in the past. I bring it in against URG Tempo and U/W Snapcaster. It's better against Snapcaster. Against Snapcaster, I usually board out 4 Swords to Plowshares and a Karakas. In comes 1 Choke, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Thrun, the Last Troll and 1 Sword of Light and Shadow. So, the 1 Choke is because I don't make the room for 2. I'm also hesitant to take out the whole equipment package against U/W Snapcaster (this would make more room), as I prefer to fight equipment with equipment and they usually don't have many answers other than to keep our creatures off the board. Against URG Tempo, I'm going to take out Gaddock Teeg, Sylvan Library, Qasali Pridemage and 2 Aven Mindcensor for a Choke, Sword of Light and Shadow, Thurn, the Last Troll and Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. I also switch a Swords to Plowshares for a Path to Exile, since URG Tempo doesn't run any basic lands. I keep 1 Pridgemage in for Mind Harness.
Path to Exile for the mirror - it's nice to have the extra removal spell.
Thrun, the Last Troll - I really like Thrun against U/W Snapcaster and Black Control.
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast I think 2 is the right number for the 'blasts. For a while, I ran 3, but I found they were clogging up my hand.
Cards I may remove (on the cusp):
Karakas
is good against Reanimator and a Show and Telled Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. I haven't faced either of these decks in a long time and there are other and better options out of the sideboard. The best use I've received from Karakas was Legend-ruling my opponent's Karakas against Death and Taxes. I'm considering replacing this with a Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle or a 6th red-land source.
Cards that missed the cut:
Maze of Ith
Phyrexian Metamorph
Batterskull
Sword of Feast and Famine
Quirion Ranger
3rd Aven Mindcensor
Tarmogoyf
Terravore
2nd Sylvan Library
Gaea's Cradle
Maze and Metamorph - see above. Batterskull is a meta decision - plus with only 2 Stoneforge Mystics it is harder to cheat it into play. Scavenging Ooze, Umezawa's Jitte, and Sword of Light and Shadow provide life gain versus burn decks (I still face a lot of burn online).
Quirion Ranger I like this card as it is a 1 casting cost and is an earlier drop than Scryb Ranger and combines better with Green Sun's Zenith. However, as ruckus mentions above, Scryb Ranger has Protection from Blue, flying and flash. If you've missed a land drop, Quirion Ranger can become a 'free drop' and both Rangers combo well with Mother of Runes, Dryad Arbor, Knight of the Reliquary, Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch plus they protect your forests from Wasteland. One issue with both of the Rangers is that out of the 22 land I run, only 5 are forests, so I've run into problems where I didn't have a Forest in play to activate Rangers or not two to activate Rangers on my turn and my opponent's turn.
Aven Mindcensor. I really like this card - it stops:
Natural Order
Green Sun's Zenith
Pattern of Rebirth
Infernal Tutor
Stoneforge Mystic
Knight of the Reliquary
Intuition
Grim Tutor
and Fetchlands. It also has flash and flying (evasion). Until recently, I was running 3, but I really don't like to draw a second once I have one on board. That being said, I definitely want 1, as this card is one of this deck's only answers to Natural Order. I recently cut the 3rd copy for a 2nd Scryb Ranger, as I really like that card's untap ability (I often find myself wanting to draw Scryb more often).
The reason for not including a 2nd Sylvan Library is the same for not including a 3rd Aven Mindcensor above. 1 is really nice, but 2 is overkill.
Tarmogoyf and Maze of Ith would be the two cards I would add as 76 and 77, perhaps removing a Karakas or Ensnaring Bridge from the board for a Maze of Ith or the 2nd Scryb Ranger from the main for a Tarmogoyf. 'Goyf is great against Burn, Zoo, URG Tempo or for creating a clock against a combo deck. He's usually our biggest beater at the GSZ=2 slot. He's also very good at opposing other 'Goyfs and giving our deck some time to develop.
Comments/Feedback/Questions welcome. As Mav players, after we answer the 'Traditional' WG Mav vs. Punishing Mav question, our decklists are all very similar (I would say 95% of the cards are the same), with small tweaks for the expected metagame. Likewise, the sideboards all have similar themes, with the usual debate being Enlightened Tutor sideboard vs. non-Enlightened Tutor sideboard. After this question is answered, the objectives of most sideboards is similar, with small tweaks for the expected metagame and card preference.
ruckus, is this because it is a dead draw/undesirable against so many decks? From your Vegas tournament report, it looks like you were bringing it in against the mirror, Bant, etc. What other decks do you bring the Maze in against?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
To my list above, I'm replacing Karakas with Maze of Ith and the 2nd Scryb Ranger with a Tarmogoyf. Both are mainly meta decisions. Maze is a nice blocking cantrip with Knight of the Reliquary, gives your guys vigilance and saves them from unexpected blocking situations. While it is dead against some decks and susceptible to Wasteland, I still think it's more valuable than Karakas in my meta (I haven't played a Reanimator deck in forever).
Second, I've never been unhappy to draw Tarmogoyf, he is our only decent GSZ=2 threat/blocker and he's good at slowing down Burn, Zoo, URG Tempo's opposing Tarmogoyf and creating a clock against Combo.
I'm very happy with the 2 Scavenging Ooze as it provides a valuable utility, life gain and easily turns into a beater in mid game.
In Game 1 against unknown opponents, you want to be the aggressive deck. It's a dead draw against most control and combo decks, and the maindeck is perfectly able to play aggresive against other mid range decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
In games 2/3 is were you shift to more of a control deck that answers their general strategy, and having additional outs to opposing KotR/Goyf/Delver is important since the density of the deck is marginalized by the additional SB cards. Against reanimator specifically, it buys you some time and negates one of their attackers if they chose the wrong threat.
I never found that I wanted to use the Maze of Ith tricks with Knight - I would rather just find Wastelands or grow knight with fetchlands then start attacking when he's about 1/2 their life total.
Never put out Karakas if you running Teeg MD. Unless you like to be locked down by own creature.
What does Karakas have to do with Teeg? You could bounce your Teeg to GSZ, then cast it again if need be.
-Matt
I think he's talking about getting your Karakas Wastelanded before you drop Teeg. Still, when in need for the mana, I'd definitely run out that Karakas.