I assume they're playing it so they can run Treasure Cruise without running into the anti-synergy that Nimble Mongoose creates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Superior
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I assume they're playing it so they can run Treasure Cruise without running into the anti-synergy that Nimble Mongoose creates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Superior
I couldn't believe when I saw Kird Ape ROCKING the top 8 yesterday, this card looks so great in the current meta
- It doesn't die to forked bolt
- It's a little weak against wasteland-decks (so what? the meta lacks of wastelands after treasure cruise was released)
- It can block (and kill) pyromancer, SFM, SCM, Bob without dieing)
- Probably great with the jitte in SB
- It allows TC in this deck (I love the mongooses, but TC is broken, what to say?)
An important thing I notice after TC was released is that all the fair-blue-decks (like delver decks) had to take out some counters to put TC in. TC is incredible against fair decks, but I miss my 3-4 MD spell pierces I played before, specially against fast combos, like revive and S&S
Kird Ape allows you to use 4 TC + all the counter-package in the same deck!
I liked the stifle-less version that made top 1 more, but I'm not 100% sure. 3 spell pierce + 3 forked bolt looks consistent for me. I'd also cut the MD pyroblast for the 4th wasteland, using 18 lands total
The Kird-evil-Ape idea is genious
after some months playing elves, i have been playing rug for the last month.
I started with the mangoose version, i think mangoose is the best creature on the deck. But playing mangoose is incompatible with treasure cruise. At the same time it's incompaible with jitte, a very good card in the current meta.
I wanted to try with pyromancer instead of mangoose, but i think i'm going to test kird ape. Added to all your arguments, i rarely put tokens with pyromancer, not playing probe and less direct damage than UR.
Another question is playing taiga instead 3rd tropical island. I read a tournament report some months ago, from a guy who played that taiga. Arguments:
- sometimes you need 2 red mana available in opponent's turn (bolt, pyroblast),
- sometimes you need to protect 1 color. If you have 1 volcanic, 1 trop and fetch for 3rd land, you take the risk of losing 1 color. With taiga you will have always your 3 colors if your opponent wastes one of your lands.
I don't know if you watched the finals video. I did. RUG player seemed to made the same mistake 2 consecutive turns, attaking with ape before land droping w/o forest in play and having a tropical in hand. Any explanation?
He wanted to save his fetchland for the delver-trigger. Wich was the right play imo.
So, lets test them wild apes!
1st turn he played volcanic instead of tropical for casting delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by index
second turn, with volcanic in play and tropical in hand he played a fetch.
i can understand the fetch decision, but not the volcanic instead of tropical the turn before. maybe for casting pyroblast?
i think it's important to put storm player under 12 life to make Ad Nauseam less effective.
Daryl Ayers has been playing that deck for over a month. He played i at the GP.
https://twitter.com/Daryl_Ayers/stat...17426524651520
Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Daryl's Team Azerbaijan! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:
This "new" Kird Ape list is basically the TEMPO ZOO list I built for GP Amsterdam 2011.
I was crushing the French legacy metagame with it from GP Amsterdam to the printing of Terminus, joined a few months later by Abrupt Decay. Placed 20th at GP Amsterdam, won the Golden BOM 2012 and top8ed multiple 100+ players tournaments with TZ.
He mainly replaced the 3 Grim Lavamancer and the Mirri's Guile with 4 Treasure Cruise, which is the obvious swap.
What is funny is that I updated the list with the release of Khans, and we pretty much have the same stock list, except I still play only 2 Wastelands, and I play 2 Chain Lightning instead of the third Forked Bolt and the 4th Ponder.
Here are a few links:
GP Amsterdam 2011: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Mag...s11/top32decks
BOM 2012: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...bazaaro-world/
The Tempo Zoo thread on Legacy-France, for those of you who can read French: http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...opic=7833&st=0
I stopped playing the list because it is very weak to Terminus and Abrupt Decay.
There have never been as few Abrupt Decays as now, but it is still very vulnerable to Miracle and its Terminus, even with Treasure Cruise.
Been waiting about 10 years for a good reason to break these bad boys out:
http://i.imgur.com/mRgcYvW.jpg
Found it! I will probably brew up a little something similar, possibly with a bit more burn or a Vendilion Clique in the main.
I tried Clique and some other 3cc spells (Rushing River and TNN), but 3cc spells are just too expensive for this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Top of the curve should not be higher than 2.
I don't want to break the Hype that's going on here and it's sweet that an oldschool hero came back to business, but honestly i have to say that kird ape is a really poor creature compared to any other one in the format.
I mean, it still dies to bolt and every other removal spell except forked bolt which is a 1-2 off in most decks.
Secondly, it is not the fastest clock we have seen even if there is no defense: 2 points of damage, how cute.
'Index' and i have tested the card and everytime kird ape entered the battlefield there was a kind of laughter on both sides because of it's cuteness.
Instead i would either splash a 4th colour for deathrite shaman which is a more powerful 1 drop or even a Scythe Tiger and a higher landcount although I'm not sure about it.
Hey Kai,Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
same opinion on the ape discussion! I thougt about the tiger too for a second but the 2 toughness are just super bad because every YP, Bob, SCM or whatever will kill it in combat. And that for the price of sacing a land....mhhh, no :laugh:
I think YP would be a better option even if he costs 2 mana.
Or maybe 4 Mongoose + 2-3 Thought Scour + 2 TC?
Greetings
I had that a lot too. When I cast Kird Ape, opponents tended to smile... at first.
Then after a few spells that got Dazed or Pierced they realised that the gorilla was eating their life away, but after 6-8 damage it is already too late. 6 to 8 damage for one red mana is a pretty good deal, and with the reach this deck have it makes things easy.
If you compare the ape with other creatures it is not that ridiculous as well. On 4 attacks, it deals 8 damage, where a Delver that do not flip twice deals the same number of damage. Even if Delver just miss a flip once, it is not that big a difference.
When you have the choice between a turn one Delver or Ape, it is almost every time correct to play the Ape first if you have access to a second land to pump it. Because the Delver will blindflip 50% of the time, where the Ape will deal 2 damage 100% of the time. So on average the Ape deal the same number of damage as a Delver on its first attack on turn 2, and has the advantage of limiting variance, which is all these cantrip decks are about anyway.
But Delver of secrets is one if not the best creature in Legacy. If you compare the Ape with other one-drops, it really shines.
It is faster the Mongoose, which takes forever to grow at a non-laughable size. Against combo the Goose takes at least 4-5 turns to grow, whereas the Ape reach full size on its first attack. Thats is 5 more damage after 5 attacks, double as the damage dealt by Mongoose. It is sooo important against combo, and is actually the difference between losing and winning.
Even Monastery Swiftspear is not that better than the Ape. Sure it regularly attacks for three, and when you are "going off" it can reach the size of a Tarmogoyf, but you attack a lot of times for 1 as well. In the end Swiftspear deals more damage than the Ape, but not that many more. And the Ape is good on itself, it does not require a deck full of Probes, which lets you play Spell Pierce and totally change your combo MU.
The extra toughness of the Ape is very relevant as well. There are no early blockers that can block it, kill it and survive. Kird Ape eats alive Thalia, Pyromancer, DRS, Bob, SFM, ...
Another feature of this card that is relevant is that it is not vulnerable to graveyard hate. RIP does nothing against the gorilla.
In this deck DRS is too slow, and Scythe Tiger is a joke. It dies to too many blockers with its 2 toughness, and sacrificing a land is horrendous. As is playing Mongoose and Treasure Cruise in the same deck.
I've gotten to test Kird Ape in two daily's so far. The first one I ran Daryl Ayer's actual list and went 1-2 drop, the second I played an 18 land version (-1 forked bolt, +1 Wooded Foothills) to a 4-0 finish.
-This deck is basically just a better version of UR Delver. You get to run a reasoable amount Spell Pierces MD to help against combo decks and hate cards (Chalice of the Void, Choke), you stomp the UR Delver match up with higher toughness dudes and Rough/Tumble in the Sb, and we actually play Wasteland.
-If you are looking to play a Temur Treasure Cruise deck, Kird Ape is definitely the one drop that gets you there. We could run Monastary Swiftspear, but it doesn't encourage splashing green and Tarmogoyf, it encourages more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.
-Against control decks, running Kird Ape and Treasure Cruise instead of Nimble Mongoose is mostly a wash. Kird Ape can be answered easily but you get to keep drawing more cards where Nimble Mongoose is a much better durable threat.
-The deck is pretty solid although I do reccomend 18 lands.
-Nimble Mongoose is still a fantastic card that generates all kinds virtual card advantage. Traditional Canadian Threshold would wreck this new fangled Temur build, so I still wouldn't write Nimble Mongoose out of the metagame yet.
@Sea R Hill: Thx man for your arguments pro Ape. I completely understand what are you talking about and it also makes sense but you only focused on kird ape's velocity, not on its resilience.
In my opinion there are 2 ways to go: Either we build a Tempo Zoo Deck with 14+ creatures backed upt with free countermagic, cantrips and 7+ removal spells to execute a really fast beatdown OR we focus more on a tempoCONTROL Deck with more resilient threads + a lot more countermagic like spell snare/pierce/stifle to knock our opponent down while we control his mana.
Kird ape could be good in the first approach whereas it sucks in the second
Btw for anyone who's been following Legacy for about 2 years or more, Kird Ape shouldn't be a revelation in Canadian:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/bazaar...video-roundup/ (Ctrl+F Kird Ape)
I believe he came first.
AS i said before, the Rug list in your link featuring Kird Ape is a Tempo Zoo Deck with a high creature+ removal density.
i ran blue zoo last year before tcruise which featured 3apes/2grim/2tnn, and had success with it..
if im going to test it again with cruises i might just cut the grims and instead put in tnns since im missing goose..
been a fan of forked bolt, for me the 2nd greatest burn spell after bolt...but if im running goyfs, i always like tarfires.
i agree too with BKclassic, with us running 3 colors, 18 will be the correct number...all our lands (except wastes) are blue, so tnn shldnt be a prob.
vs wasteland.dec we have stifles and of course treasure cruises too for reload.
In fact my TZ list from 2011 runs the same 12 creatures as my post TC list, plus 3 Grim Lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Grim Lavamancer is a terrific creature that was very good in the 2011-2012 metagame, because there were a lot of Maverick and Elves decks back then.
Now that these decks have fallen out of hype, and that you can draw 3 for one blue, it makes sense to replace them with Treasure Cruise.
What is important here is that Creature #13 to #15 were not creatures that you were attacking with, but creatures that soft-locked some decks like Elves and gave you reach against all the other decks. It was just weak against combo.
Now the reach can be obtained through card advantage with TC.
I also upped the number of Ponder I play from 1 to 3, so you can find your creatures more easily and fill your graveyard for TC.
So today's lists are not that different from before, they just have access to an incredible draw engine that helps you close the games once you run out of gas.
For reference here is my current list, which I think is better than the one that won the last SCG, mainly because I play 18 lands including 16 colored ones instead of 17 lands including only 14 colored ones for a better stability, and because I don't have a clunky sideboard:
MD :
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kird Ape
SB :
3 Pyroblast
3 Envelop
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough / Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod’s Crypt
Kird Ape might not be the most sophisticated guest at the dinner table, but he's the only one-drop besides Delver that allows you to play Rough / Tumble and Treasure Cruise in the same deck and still apply a decent clock. Ok, except for maybe Rogue Elephant...
My hat's off to Ayers... it's a deceptively simple change that allows the deck to play a lot more like the old RUG Delver lists that dropped Stifle in favour of additional burn/Spell Pierce. Cruise just gives it so much more gas in the late game.
In theory one could splash white to gain access to Wild Nacatl.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
In the current meta, with not that many Wastelands, this might be an option.
White also has some nice sideboard options and a great removal spell to offer.
My first version of Tempo Zoo played Wild Nacatl.
I won the first tournament I played with this list, but as soon as Delver was released I switched to Delvers, and never looked back.
The manabase is much better when you don't have to play lands that act like basic lands but that can still get wastelanded. (All the white duals which were here just to pump Nacatl did not help you cast any white spell, because you don't play any).
So even if there are less Wastelands in today's meta (which I am unsure aynway), not splashing white still allows you to have a more stable manabase, besides having a more robust one.
Fixed. And thank you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
I'm not saying play Nacatl over Delver. I am saying it's worth looking into playing both, and no Kird Ape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea R Hill
The lands would be Tropical and Plateau, allowing you to play the two important reactive colours (blue and red) from two lands. You could decide to play white cards, main or side, but you don't necessarily have to. It's an option. I think it could work.
Nacatl is too fragile. The deck should be able to survive on 2 lands.
+1 on that,no nacatl please.
nacatl is just a touch better than kird ape,the white splash isn't worth it
So I've been doing some testing with Kird Ape builds myself and this is the best I could come up with:
Creatures: 12
4 delver of secrets
4 kird ape
4 tarmogoyf
Instants: 22
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 lightning bolt
1 spell pierce
1 pyroblast
Sorceries: 9
4 ponder
4 treasure cruise
1 forked bolt
Lands: 17
4 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
1 vendilion clique
1 spell pierce
1 forked bolt
2 rough and tumble
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge
1 sulfuric vortex
1 sylvan library
Despite Kird Ape making cruise viable I still feel like RUG delver's power relies in it's synergy with wasteland/stifle/daze. The list Daryl won with just seemed to soft to miracles without goose and stifle. I mean I can understand him just hoping to dodge it, but the meta I play in it's a fairly common deck to see. On top of that I did put sulfuric vortex, sylvan library and krosan grip in the board to help shore up the miracles match up post board.
I am thinking about shaving 1 cruise for another pierce. What do you guys think? In testing it just seems like 4 cruises is too much. It almost always seems like a cruise is clogging up opening hands or early draws. In UR delver 4 cruise makes sense, but 3 seems a bit better for us.
Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Monkey Island aka Team Azerbaijan. Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian or watch the VODs later this week on itsJulian.com
Nice! What list you using?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Really not that big an issue but I would prefer no music on the VODs, or something more neutral like a piano
Welcome back nimble mongoose! <3
<3 <3 I'm going home to unsleeve Taiga and Kird Ape.Quote:
Originally Posted by index
Welcome back
For some of us, it never left.Quote:
Originally Posted by index
I might still want spell snares
Back to playing this from TES, its good to see mongoose back and us going to be a tier 1 deck again.
So. Reality Shift, anyone?
I'm new to Legacy, I just bought in on MTGO. Built U/R Delver, and started on daryl ayers delver deck.
Now that treasure cruise has been banned, I decided to buy nimble mongoose and make the older version of this deck.
Do you guys think that Nimble Mongoose is the way to go? Would you ever consider trying the kird ape version with dig through time instead of treasure cruise?
I've been playing and trying to learn the Nimble Mongoose list lately, so far I've done ok, I faced a couple decks that I wasn't familiar with and ended up losing.
This is what my deck looks like now:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
Keep in mind, I will replace the ghost quarter as soon as I can afford to do so. Should be soon (I hope, because rarely is GQ any good).
Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I'm still learning the format. I have to say, Legacy is the most fun I've ever had playing competitive magic.
I finally own this deck but I don't get the opportunity to play often, so: are there anyone that routinely stream or post videos of playing this (and other, particularly BUG) Delver variants?
Hands down nimble mongoose is better than kird ape. The only reason why kird ape was even for a second slightly better was because it didn't rely on the graveyard and treasure cruise was that good. The other thing stock lists running goose and stifle are so much better vs miracles. Having a 3/3 beatstick they have to find terminus/entreat/singleton clique to deal with makes it really hard for them. On top of that we have stifle for terminus/entreat which forces them to burn a brainstorm (unless they have jace in play but we shouldn't let that happen) to put the miracle card back on top. I will admit Kird Ape is better against combo, but goose is better against the other 2/3 of the meta because of it's shroud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandswamp
As for going back to it switching dig with cruise I wouldn't, but that's just because I like the main list. They're similar cards dig and cruise and I would almost say dig is better since you see 7 and 1 card with cruise was probably a land/irrelevant card anyways. It's worth a shot plus it's an instant which is much better for us.
If you're having difficulties with stifle don't let it make you make bad plays. What I mean by that is don't hold up stifle turn 1 over playing out delver because you want to maybe hit a fetch. Playing out a wasteland without a threat in play is bad the same I would say is true for stifle most of the time.
http://www.channelfireball.com/author/jacob-wilson/Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
I would start by watching all of Jacob's rug delver videos. Not sure if everyone else agrees with this, but I would say Jacob is the best RUG Delver pilot. There's also plenty of videos of him playing in various scg top 8s (I think he won 3 back to back with rug) and despite the videos being old most of the match ups haven't changed that much.
Thank you! <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer