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Vial is a mandatory 4, not only does it allow you to dodge counter, it help you cast you men while wastelanding, dazing etc... but the major point for 4 vial in this deck is , turn 1 vial turn 2 standstill.
Vial+standstill is just nut's
edit : also vialing adept is pretty good
Why does Grimoire Thief see no play? In testing he has been rather remarkable for me as a maindeck answer to Combo and even randomly countering Tarmogoyfs etc.
I have seen those a few times now and they were completely trivial to me.
I know you think you somehow have a position of rationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
You don't. You don't have any evidence. Nobody agrees with you. Cut a card from the primer (anything below average will do, if you've read my posts it should be obvious).
It's an embarrassment to everyone that you somehow think that 61 cards is a solution or is even a stopping place. If you were just some average guy in this thread, I'd let you wallow in your own ignorance, but you control the primer. Please take some responsibility.
This has gone on long enough. You've already admitted that 60 cards is better, so just cut something now and we can get back to discussing it instead of having to push back these childish rebellions. You're clearly stifling conversation with your conversation-stopper, "Nothing you say matters, because I'll just run everything."
Other people are working hard on this, try to step up to the plate.
I'd bump one of your Relics to the sideboard long before I ever cut a vial. Seriously, don't... DO NOT cut Vial down to three. You're shooting yourself in the foot, because although you'd rather not see two Vials over the course of the average game, you really really want to see one in your opening hand, much more than you don't want to see two in the same game...Quote:
Originally Posted by Schembo
Also, @DeeJus: Grimoire Thief??? WTF man? He's basically worse than Rootwater Thief, who is himself basically worse than bad. If you want more Merfolk, try more Thrasher, try Tidal Warrior, hell, even try Sygg River Cutthroat. Or try Relic, bounce, hell, even Jitte... But hey, don't listen to me if you don't want to. It's just that I doubt I'll make the GP myself, and it saddens me to think of folks playing Grimoire Thief there.
Actually, I have to agree with Forbiddian, Phoenix and the others. Finn, cut either an Island or a Daze from the OP and explain it with something like: "still trying to fit in the 4th Daze... testing will let me know".
The main problem with Grimoire Thief is that he's slow and he also cost UU. If you except heavy combo, play it, otherwise, there are better cards out there.
Also, vial IS 4 off, no less, not now, not ever. [However, I did SB out one against goblin on the draw for Needles, planing on locking out there's. But I would never cut them all.]
*So... can we talk more about Jitte? I've been finding it pretty cool so far, running it in the two main-deck slots I used to have Kira in... Noticed Finn added it back to his OP list as well, in his sideboard... I've heard the arguments against (not that they don't bear repeating), and I still need to test it more (or else I wouldn't ask...) but I think it really helps to shore up some of this deck's possible weaknesses: lack of removal, lack of lifegain, and smaller creatures compared to some other decks (pretty much in that order in terms of significance if you ask me too)
Has anyone gotten much testing done with Jitte?
*Also: I'm beginning to accept that I'm probably better off putting Jitte in my sideboard and running bounce main... Which, if I were to add two copies of a bounce spell main-deck, I think I'd like to go with Rushing River because it's potentially the most powerful... But does it seem not as good as Echoing Truth or Wipe Away for the main-deck?
EDIT: @Finn: while I respect that it's your prerogative, I think posting a 61 card list may be a little misleading to folks just now picking up the deck (although that's on their lack of preparation, not ours, I know).
It just seems to me, if I'm remembering your list correctly, that what you're stuck on is basically the debate between Island number 13 and Wasteland number 4. I'd try testing some match-ups excluding one of these cards and see if you're comfortable with how the mana works... I know that running 12 Islands is kind of 'living on the edge', but if you're adding the sixty-first card to get up to 13, you're really not helping yourself out any, mathematically speaking. And not to be a rude motherfucker, but if you just flat-out don't believe in statistics, you're kind of missing a fundamental understanding of games and how they work. I'm not saying the universe and everything in it is governed by math, but math is one of the most cohesive systems available to interpret and predict how things work, and Magic is essentially a game of numbers in the first place.
I would run a singleton of both Wipe Away and Rushing River ala Canadian Thresh
That's kinda interesting... But I'd feel a lot more consistent with two of one card in the main, two of the other in the sideboard. Is there a logical argument for running two mise-wells that do similar things? It just seems kinda... random.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
Because at their base level they do the same thing for the same amount of mana but both also do something extra. One is uncounterable and the other you can bounce something additional for a negligible cost. I used to always want to play one or the other, and the tournament where I said "this is the last time I run one of each", I bounced a nought with wipe away and he showed me 2 forces and a daze before scooping.
Typically I think River is stronger but when that split second matters, it's usually game breaking.
I decided one of each was fine and dandy.
So what would you say would be the optimal configuration if I was to use the 1/1 split in this deck? Like one of each main-deck and then another two of each in the sideboard maybe?? Using four sideboard slots on bounce seems kind of unwise...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
I'll just post my list
------
// Lands
3 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [5E] Island (3)
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
// Spells
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
That looks pretty solid. 18 creatures is a little low though... I have to say, that was one thing I liked about Kira while I was running her in the main... Even when she's just a flying Grizzly Bears, she's a warm body on the board at least. (I sincerely wish WOTC would print just one more bomb-ass Merfolk to use in this deck... *le sigh*)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
I agree that I'd like to up the creature count a bit but nothing in the current game is worth the slots of the cards I would have to take out for it. I have a feeling that Kira will be in more games than not. But I believe in a blind meta-game, such as the grand prix, the two bounce are better vested MD slots.
And there's always mutavault. ;)
Yeah, yeah, Mutavault... I wish Sygg had tested to be worth a shit though... Or Tidal Warrior, perhaps if he had the same ability and a slightly bigger body... I agree though, I've been over all the options, and there's nothing much worth using. If I wanted creatures #19-20, I'd actually probably go with Shapesharer. But he has a couple fairly obvious problems (being a mana-hungry 1/1 in a deck that wants bigger creatures, and where mana is relatively tight to begin with...) I like the possibility of having a chump-blocker-extraordinaire in this deck though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
EDIT: Or, more realistically, I'd consider Wake Thrasher number three, and maybe, just maybe the fourth as well... He is pretty burly after all, except you'd obviously side a few out if they were packing burn spells.
I think tidal warrior and selkie are the only two that come even close to being candidates (other than MD'ing Kira) but as has been discussed, just aren't worth the spots.
I don't use Tidal Warrior myself, but I wouldn't completely dismiss him, he's cropped up in a few first-place lists on deckcheck over the last couple months... On the other hand, I wouldn't touch Selkie with a ten-foot pole. The reason we run Wake Thrasher (the only 1/1 for three mana we use) is because he's a beast if he gets to attack, not because he might maybe draw a card if we attack with him. Let's face it, Selkie is really only good with at least one lord in play, so you can present the threat of drawing multiple cards if she connects. For one thing, this is relatively unlikely to happen if your opponent has any sort of a say about it. And for another thing, if you have LoA plus her, her islandwalk is useless and redundant anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
The only 1/1's we use in this deck are either secretly Hulk-sized monstrosities like Thrasher, or incredibly cheap and versatile like Cursecatcher. This is why Tidal Warrior could maybe fit the criteria: he's cheap and potentially disruptive/LoA enabling (read: fairly versatile). Conversely, this is why Selkie is complete garbage: she's expensive, not disruptive, and very situational. And for a three-drop, she deals next to no damage whatsoever, which is after all, how our deck goes about achieving a game win.
...Anyways, this is why I've been happy so far with my third Wake Thrasher, until I inevitably decide to move Relic back to the main after seeing a match-up it would have won...
EDIT: The more I think about it though, the more I think I may give Tidal Warrior a try after all if I can find the space... For a deck that's so geared towards keeping other decks from seeing their splash colors (Stifle/Wasteland), it seems like his ability would be pretty freaking useful for us. Granted, he's better if they're not playing Islands to begin with, but a lot of decks that feature Blue also splash other colors, so it seems to me that he retains his usefulness pretty well in most situations...
I think canadian thres can run one of each Wipe/River because they also have 8 spells that search for them (Ponder/Brainstorm). We can't in the same sense decide which of the 2 we will draw. Therefore, I would recommend playing 2 of 1 rather than 1/1. But if running 1/1 seem to work for you then go for it.
Also, Smog, running both Kira and Jitte in SB, how does that work out for you? You ever feel like boarding in both?
Don't worry, primer got updated regardless of stubbornness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
My list currently runs -1 island +1 Relic just so you all know. Kira is great right now in almost every metagame, but if you are facing heavy stax types decks Echoing Truth is much better. GPC is going to see heavy heavy Dreadstill judging from price increases, so you might even want to run Wipe Away here, but honestly Echoing Truth is going to work better 90% of the time (since it's better against other decks and gives huge tempo with standstill).
I would board in both fairly often, yes. I would board both in burn, goyf sligh, and goblins just off the top of my head. Probably many more.Quote:
Originally Posted by elof
Thinned the mana base? Really? Been working alright I take it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
edit: and as far as echoing truth vs other bounce, I might try it but the rushing river / wash away combo has been good to me. I can see the viability though.
I run 19 lands and it's worked okey for me. But I do think I have to mulligan more than the rest of you so perhaps I switch in a 13th Island.
@Smog: You have never had the problems of having both Jitte and Kira in play at the same time? Or Kira in play and then drawing a Jitte?
I haven't, but then again, I haven't been piloting the deck very long. I don't think that their adverse interaction should keep you from boarding in both and playing around it if necessary. They make a huge difference in the matchups I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by elof
But I encourage input from someone more experienced with the deck than I to step in for this one. As I said, I haven't been playing the deck long enough to provide a well founded basis for my opinion on the board.
That's mainly the reason why I wonderd, Kira and Jitte don't work well at all together, I myself havn't tried it but either paying 6 to play and equip with jitte or paying 4 and getting your creature toasted sounds like an awful plan. However, but Jitte and Kira does wonders alone, so perhaps it's worth it anyway?
So Forbiddian, you still don't have any input except "fix it" to add? We are still waiting for your solution.
I think it is grand that there have been so many offers to remove a card. Lemme see what I can do about that.
Here's my argument: 19 lands in a 60 card deck actually gives you a better shot at consistent draws than 20 lands in a 61 card deck. That's all I'm sayin'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I really am not trying to pick at you, Finn. There's enough of that bullshit going on without me throwing my hat in and criticizing you unfairly. But consider this: The fact that you have to argue against this point in non-mathematical terms should be enough to prove that it's not really a point that's mathematically arguable.
I've got a question regarding Jitte. Have any of you ever succesfully used it against an aggro deck(let's say goblins, zoo etc.)? How can U actually use it agains island-free decks(which are btw the MUs where you want to see it most I guess), that pack hordes of critters, without any kind of evasion?
Easy. Be willing to lose your creatures you swing with. Wake Thrasher will carry a Jitte with pride, but once Silvergill Adept's in play, do you really care if all he does is swing in with a Jitte to get the first two counters on? Once those counters are on, any Merfolk you swing with will be near invincible and generate more counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
Also, at this point, it's worth noting that if you've got a Reejerey with a loaded Jitte on it, and you play a Merfolk after swinging in, the Reejerey will untap and be ready to block for more counters.
Jitte won't win the matches singlehandedly, but when combined with your other disruption spells? It'll do enough.
Um... read the card. Jitte triggers upon combat damage, not damage to a player. Vis a vis, you still get to put counters on Jitte even if they block the creature that's packing it... So, evasion is kind of irrelevant in most situations if you have a Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
Maybe I'm missing the point that you're trying to make, but it doesn't seem that you're actually saying anything relevant here, no offense. :rolleyes:
What I would worry about, trying to use Jitte against Gobbos or Zoo, is that it might not be fast enough to make a difference... If I get it successfully attached to a creature in time to matter though, it will definitely help against both the match-ups you listed as examples...
Haha, U're right. Should've read the card;) My mistake. I've been out of play for a few years and never really got to play with/against jitte. Anyway I've been wondering why everyone seems to get so freakin' hot about this artifact :D Guess that might be the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
Lol, that would explain it. Sorry if I came off a little disgruntled there. Anyhow, notice that Jitte is not an auto-include in this deck anyhow. Most folks who do run it put it in the sideboard, and I think I may end up taking this route myself (been trying two in the main just for testing), although I sort of want to keep a singleton in the main-deck. It'd be a little ugly to run singletons, but most games if you top-decked it you'd be happy to see it, and as they say, it would make sideboarding easier:wink: ... Whereas I've been cross to see two in the same game:Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
...Anyhow, funny story: I was shuffling up my Merf deck and just practicing making mulligan decisions last night and gold-fishing a couple games just for fun, and I ended up getting two Jitte in my opening hand once, and drawing into a second Jitte within my first three turns another time... So that kinda made me decide to stop running two in the main-deck right there.:laugh:
Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of singletons myself. I hate my games getting random. On the other hand it might give the game a little thrill(you might pack a few other one-ofs if you really like surprises) ;D.
But seriously, U just said that often when you draw Jitte it is simply too late to even matter. Why won't you run more of them to increase the odds of seeing it early enough then?
I'm currently trying to get all the cards and simply can't wait to test the deck. It looks sooo good to me;) So, basically just wanted to know if Jitte is worth getting after all. I used to play Legacy Madness (often against Gobbos) and I know just how much having no removal might be pain in the butt.
Well, I wouldn't run more Jittes than two in the main, because it's legendary for one, and for another thing you need four mana open on the same turn (usually) for you to want to play it... Dropping Jitte without enough mana to equip same turn is usually a pretty shitty play, and indicative that you should have taken a mulligan rather than keeping your hand (since this usually means you have nothing better to play on your second or third turn than an unequipped Jitte... unsavory!).Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
As far as buying the cards for the deck, the only things that I'd say are absolute necessities that will set you back a lot of cash are Force of Will, Wasteland, and Mutavault (I'd prioritize them in that order also.) Granted, that's a fair amount of money just right there, but these cards are absolute fucking diesel. Not to sound like an elitist, but not having these cards really would cause this deck to fall flat on its face in a competitive Legacy tournament.
As far as Jitte, I happened to have some... If you're trying to keep your deck budget-conscious, I see no reason you should feel obligated to buy them. They're really more of a matter of personal preference in this deck, so don't feel obliged. However, it is definitely a phenomenal card, the best Equipment in existence, no contest... Even if you don't like it in this deck after testing, it's not like you're going to be like "Now what am I going to do with this damn Jitte? This card sux!" So if you're tempted by them and you don't mind adding to the price tag, I'd say go ahead. :wink:
EDIT: Perhaps some other folks with even more experience than I have in playing this deck would also like to weigh in on Jitte some more? I don't quite buy the argument that it's too slow to work, since this is after all not the quickest of Aggro decks to begin with... From what testing I've done with it so far, Jitte seems to actually fit into our curve fairly nicely for me... But I haven't tested as much as I'd like to yet, I wholeheartedly admit. And if I see two in the same game, that's about as far from a "pump the fist" reaction for me as I can imagine...
That's called debate. That's why we're here. I've made suggestions, I personally have a 60 card list, which I don't think is optimized (again, if I had an optimized deck, I wouldn't be here), but I think it's better/as good as the lists that I've seen, based on my style and my analysis of merit. Obviously I have a solution, and I've presented it, with valid alternatives, numerous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I've discussed many cards, and even got a PM from you (on the basis of my discussion of cards earlier), begging that I stick around because I seemed to be knowledgeable enough to help others. Did you forget that? I've contributed a lot to the thread in the past, and plan to in the future.
But as for your overall point, although totally misguided on the details, I agree: It's a fucking crying shame that I have to stop giving good advice and stop having interesting discussions so I can prevent the OP from getting left behind circa 1994 understanding of mechanics of this card game.
Yay, some new discussion: I fucking love Jitte. I found room for it MD and have been running it for a while in my gauntlet version. Part of the reason why I questioned Kira so diligently. Not entirely that I think Kira is bad, but I'm wondering what I'm missing out on.
I find it should at least be in the sideboard. Jitte is quite strong is most of our troublesome matchups. It also allows your creatures to be pretty strong without lord backup.
Some hangups people have and responses:
Swords hurts bad enough, now you want to cut Kira AND give them the chance to get more tempo?
I usually try to cast Jitte mid-late game, and usually opponents use up their Swords by then, but it kinda sucks. One other mitigating factor is that you usually equip your shittiest guy. They choose between "tempo win" by Swordsing your Cursecatcher or losing and hitting your Lord of Atlantis. Usually killing the Lord is more important (since if you kill the CC, then I just equip Lord next turn and you have double the problem).
A better criticism, I think, is that you can get 2:1d when you draw multiple Jittes or you run out of guys and Jitte doesn't perform.
I don't have a counterargument to the first. Drawing two sucks, there's no way to get rid of it in this deck, so just suck up the -1 (or run a singleton if you have that much of a hangup). Doesn't happen too often, wins more games on the whole. But again, this is something to note that might make it worse than an alternative you were considering, so keep in mind if you want to run 3-4 Jittes that you will suck up a lot of -1 during a tournament.
To the second: This deck runs 21-26 creatures. The only way you'll run out of guys is if you overextended into a board sweeper (or got Moated or The Abyssed, where only Kira can save you, ironically enough). Back on topic, Jitte prevents you from having to overextend, since a guy with a Jitte can actually take the game home, so WoG, pyro, etc. is a lot less dangerous
The last valid criticism I can think of is that it doesn't fit the mana curve so well. It costs 2 and then 2, so spreading it out, it's always at least castable. It does cost a lot, though, and it doesn't even get an effect until basically a turn later.
There's an equipment that's much better (although technically it doesn't exist in this format), but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.Quote:
However, it is definitely a phenomenal card, the best Equipment in existence, no contest...
Forbidden, you mention MD'ing Jitte and running 21-26 creatures.
Mind posting your list?
[QUOTE=Smog;323465]Forbidden, you mention MD'ing Jitte and running 21-26 creatures.[quote]
If my claim sounds fantastic, I count manlands as creatures. Or if you'd like, subtract 3-4 from each of those numbers.
People tend to look at their lists and not see cards that they want to cut and then assume that the decklist is really cramped. Merfolk is actually one of the looser decklists I've encountered recently. A lot of material is really second class or a metagame decision. Sure, there's a lot of justification behind those cards. Even in the roughest N&D sketches, there are 60 cards with some justification. Merfolk has some pretty smart people manning the helm, so the justification is better, but the biggest myth of this thread is that the deck is somehow cramped. A cramped deck is very hard to board and has nukes in the board, since anything less than a nuke wouldn't be worth it. This deck has like Misdirection in the board.
In the right meta, Merfolk might get tight (like if you want 2 relics AND 2 wipe away AND 4th daze AND 4th Vial AND 21 land). But if you look at the diversity of successful Merfolk decks (I know, BBFAFA, doesn't mean they're right), people only agree on about 40 of the cards.
Yes. Not just to be an asshole, but I just find it really strange someone is shocked enough (that I found 2 cards in the MD that I didn't like as much as Jitte) to ask me, metaphorically, "What's your Magic cock size?" (60 cards, btw, and it's the motion of the ocean not the size of the boat).Quote:
Mind posting your list?
Basically, I don't want to put my dog in this fight (other than to say that I have experience with the cards that I say I have experience with). If there's debate on card selection, everyone will go back to this post, dig out my list, and go, "You hypocrite." Or they'll say, "I don't listen to someone who runs X." Or, they'll somehow think that I have some personal attachment to certain cards and that's why I'm trying to garner their inclusion on a wider scale. Or the backward one, people think that because I don't run a card, I can't weigh in on why I don't run the card.
I probably shouldn't have even mentioned that I run Jitte in the main (I was primarily thinking that people would forever relegate Jitte to the board and just not consider it for MD material, but it's a fine-awesome MD choice if you expect you might be facing a lot of aggro... Jitte powers through Goblins like a chainsaw powers through a Build-A-Bear warehouse).
I wasn't shocked and in no way was I trying to challenge your decision... I was just curious to see someone elses take on the deck. It's still a newer deck in the format and standards still haven't been set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
But fair enough, it's your deck. Good luck.
Fun fact, I decieded last night to switch -1 Relic (going down to 2) for +1 Jitte (trying it out). This was before I read Forbiddians posts.
Regarding Jitte, I feel as I would like to try it out more, it is probebly better than the 3ed Relic since there seem to be more "creature decks" than "graveyard decks" in sweden atm. (However, somehow, the "graveyard decks" seems to be winning more than "creature decks", oh, I can't understand why... :P)
Having just 1 Jitte main (and 1 more in board) does give me the advantages that Forbiddian mentioned, but also the benefit of not risking to draw more than 1. The downside of course is that I will draw it more seldom against matchups where I want it but since I had none before it can't be all that much of a differance anyway.
However, I will consider it to have a CC of 4. Seldom will I try (if there are other options) to drop i early, forbiddians mention of it as a mid/late game card is the way I want to play it. By mid/late game, the number of removals your opponent has is limited and it will be easyier for a lone creature to push through. And regardless, any creature I have with a Jitte is a huge threat, makeing Cursecatchers more effectful in the late game (where they are usually dead).
Anyway, I will try it out and let you guys know how I feel about it...
Cool, if it worked for you keep trying it.
Personally with so little card draw that this deck has, I won't be running a singleton of anything (other than cards that effectively do the same thing as another. i.e. bounce) for fear of inconsistency. I agree it helps against several problem decks, but just running it as a one-of, you're unlikely to see it more than once in maybe three or four game ones. (Before you board in the presumed 2nd)
Yes, I agre. The bad news is however that I have 1 open slot that is still undecided, and I don't feel like adding Island, Mutavault, Daze, Wake Thrasher or the 3rd Relic/Truth. So yes, I can't count on drawing it consistenly but I will just have to hope that the times I draw it it is really good.
I've been considering doing some shifting and playing the 4th stifle for more mana denial tempo. Haven't decided one way or the other yet.