[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

It's a good Cunning Wish target.

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Ex. A

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow

If you'll notice I split it 1-1-1 with hydro and BEB. So far testing hasn't made any spectacular differences, but with the loss of the third beb I would like to add a second ajani, Im thinking about dropping the 4th relic or 2nd runed halo from the board and replacing it with ajani.

@Citrus-God,
I've been testing out your 4c build with CB out of the side posted a few pages back. On paper it really looks like a house. Have you experienced any mana base issues, and along those same lines, are the 4 basics really worth risking color-screw now and then? Also, do you think squeezing in 1-2 Vindicates would put too much strain on an already shaky mana base, or are they just not needed when you have Deed? Lastly, have you thought about Monestary in place of 1 Factory? I've been testing your list with the following changes (which may or may not be good):

-1 Brainstorm
-1 Decree of Justice (because I only own 2, I know this is probably wrong)
-1 Mishra's Factory
-2 Island
-2 Plains

+2 Vindicate
+1 Nantuko Monestary
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Underground Sea/Polluted Delta
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tundra

I'm hesitant about the Vindicates because they lose some power without Wasteland. Everything else I'm pretty comfortable with, but I haven't tested against potent non-basic hate (Dragon Stompy, MUC, Thrash/TA to a lesser extent). How much will basic Island/Plains help in these matchups?

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

I probably wouldn't really worry about that crapper of a deck too much. I definitely agree that random morons will show up with it, but I don't see it as a real threat that is gonna make me change even 1 SB slot.
Wrath of God definitely kills Progenitals, as does Nevinyrral's Disk, Innocent Blood, any kind of Edict, and simply counterspells should keep his fat ass off the table if you don't have your sweeper or Edict ready. If you are playing none of these cards for some reason, then I would recommend making some changes to your build, but for everyone else, I wouldn't get worked up over yet another hyped up abortion of a deck.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

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Lots of discard with survival.dec back up and natural order to boot? I guess I have another deck to test for the GP. ugh.

Edit: I just realized you can runed halo naming progenitus or mage naming natural order. It can definitely can something that might catch us off guard and steal a game, but I think I'll make the necessary notes and keep it in the back of the head.

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

• Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
• Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
• Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board

^ Right.

I've been doing lots of testing against progenitus decks (loam, thresh, survival). Does it win? Yes, sometimes. But so far, the natural order combo weakens the decks vs landstill. The inherent card disadvantage and weakness to countermagic and WoG makes it pretty much suck.

Well, I figured I should at least cover all my bases. I'll be honest I'm getting sick of play testing and just need the gp to be tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

• Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
• Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
• Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board

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In addition, proactively "countering" Natural Order by keeping the mana guys off the table with Swords and EE works well.

I totally agree Landstill has the best game against the deck in the entire format. Here is my point, there isn't a standard list or idea for this deck yet. You aren't going to have the advantage of knowing what your opponent may or may not be playing unlike the rest of the decks in Legacy. Anybody playing this combo is going to have a strategy for control and you aren't going to know for certain what it is until you see it. This is similar to Flash, everybody knows there is a combo but nobody knows what the best shell of it is yet. In 2 days of testing and rough drafts I have already thrown a list together that consistently beats everything in legacy other than Landstill and is par with the faster combo, Tendrils and Ichorid. Just be wary you never know what crap they are running in these decks and not walking into anything is going to be the key to winning these match's. I'd reccomend running a Perish or 2 in the SB just to seal up this match. Perish is still entirely relevent against a number of other decks in legacy and is an easy replacement for the Edict's in the SB of my list.

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

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Perish kills and gets around Teeg.

bleh.

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

First turn stifling a fetch land is still the best play for a landstill deck.

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nope

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

nope

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I lol'd

There really is no optimal first turn play for landstill, you kind of give up an amazingly optimal first turn to have, arguably, the best late game of any deck in the format:

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

nope

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well obviously, that is my opinion. And yours is yours. Personally, I like a one mana instant sink hole before they can tap for mana... So if sinkhole cost one blue, and said "you play play this spell on a land as it comes into play". Destroy that land and the land's owner loses one life. Do you think there would be a deck that didn't play four?

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

For example. Last night I play a fetch + mox first turn. He plays fetch, he attempts to fetch, I stifle. Then I take my turn, I play a wasteland and and standstill.

So I have 3 mana, a standstill, a waste. And he has Nothing in play.. seems preeeeeeeeeeetty good. Plus crucible in my hand. Game was over before it started.

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Originally Posted by rockout

I lol'd

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

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EE for one is great. And I often play it.

If you are on the play and they play a fetch land. Stifle is better than all of your options. You don't need swords, or EE, or snare if they don't have mana to play a spell. Then on the following turn, you are dropping a 2nd land to their none...

Obviously the deck is reactionary, you have one mana and wait to see what they do. If they happen to walk a fetchland into your stifle, then that is what you should do. STIFLE it.

Landstill has a great late/mid game. An early stifle is basically a tempo time-walk, getting you closer to late game. Getting you more land drops while your opponent is another turn behind.

I guess I'm going to have to stop posting on this forum... And just keep winning magic tournaments with my sub-optimal decks and strategies..

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

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There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill. This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had? Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill.

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I disagree strongly. Every deck should be interactive from turn one. Standard landstill decks lose because they play one land per turn and lose to decks that simply out tempo them

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had?

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No. You are ahead on land drops, empowering the game breakers (FoF, Elspeth, Decree) Also, you were able to get the standstill in, free from counter and daze. If they wait three turns for you to drop more land, you are closer to winning.

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

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Yes it is worth playing because it is not dead. In my particular list, I've experimented with more tops. It isn't as good. I'm generally using all mana available to recur EEs, cast Decree, FoF, Etc. One top is great, 2 is totally dead. Much more so than stifle. Plus the blue card count is as low as it can be to power FoW. Spell snare is a viable option. But I don't like it as much. It actually ends up being dead more often than stifle. I stifle fetches, stifle ringleaders/matrons. Stifle Deed or EE. Stifle does get pitched to FoW of course. But just having the ability for the early Stifle/fetch makes it more powerful than spellsnare, IMO.

Playing the tempo game dramatically improves match-ups against thresh. I often "out tempo" tempo thresh decks. In fact, the game example above was thresh. The main point is that you stop your opponent from out tempo-ing YOU and shutting you out. By the time they play significant threats, you are in 4+ mana spells like WoG , FoF , elspeth, or big decrees.

You always assume that the best case will happen. Let´s for example say your opponent starts with Tropical->Ponder->Usea->Confidant/Survival/random cc2 Powerhouse.
In this case Snare is just the best answer you can have. Snare somehow gives you tempo too because it negates their turn 2. I can´t understand how one can EVER play Stifle>Snare in "our" current metagame.

I assume nothing. I play in two events per week (for the last 12 years) and playtest in between. My statements are from playing the game, not waxing philosophical on a board. :wink:

Spell snare is totally viable. It just has not performed as well as stifle in my standstill build. It might be better in other builds, I wouldn't know. I run 9 cards that remove bob/goyf, not including 6 counters (which I would likely not use on 2 drop creatures).

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Originally Posted by rockout

You list just doesn't make sense to me.

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That's really not surprising. You make a lot of assumptions without actually testing anything. The comments you've made about card interactions are laughable to anyone who has actually played with (or against) the deck you are "analyzing".

When I posted the deck, I stated that I was interested in feedback from people who tested the deck. Not simply read the list and grasped at straws, which you do repeatedly.

I removed the list to reduce chances of running up against it in Chicago. I'd much rather play against your version. So please, keep promoting that.

HI!
I came back after a full period of exams and a 61 people toyrney yesterday. Meta has really anything, from Thresh to stompy / stax, many goblins and elves from aggro to combo), lots of landstill of course, aggro loam, plenty of combo (high tide, belcher, AdnT), and the new yugioh deck (that with progrenitals, that top8ed), ichorid also. Finished 13th, stopped with stupid burn (keldon marauders, mogg fanatic, rift bolt and all those stupid things) on ROUND 5!!! how the hell a deck like this in a meta like that could be round 5 at table 6?!? g1 obviously lost, g2 my counterbalances were in the last 10 cards of the deck, i didn't see any with top on the board and 5 fetches to shuffle away the crap... there's no glory in losing like this, but I was obviously even angry with the ugly match with the player at table 2 the round before, who played aggroloam very sowly (i was nearly sleeping...). g1 lasted 40 minutes, he attacks for lethal with worm tokens while I was swearing cause i din't see any EE with jace on the board (so 2 cards per turn for ten turns!!! = 20 cards!!!); g2 finished at turns with me bashing with factories and he at 4 life. Had elspeth come down the turn before, could have won. No mirror match this time. This the list I played:

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [A] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance

The deck worked very well and did everything i wanted to to. Still, in some MU's i felt like I really loved having FoF instead of jace, but the CA it makes is rediculous. Aso, I'm not yet convinced on the 3/3 split between standstill and jace, maybe a 4/2 split would be bettere (but: a) i don't want to think at jace simply replacing fof; b) 2x jace forces me to use more often its +2 ability). Vindicate proved itself the good card it is, and simply makes dstompy MU (if you manage to get your basics and some removal in the first turns) almost a auto-win. Doj almost useless...

Round1: goblins 2-0
Favorable MU, but he played Rgb so threats in sideboard. G2 he opens a slow hand with cabal naming EE, but i played plague. he casts ringleader but sees lackey taiga taiga badlands, cast another and sees lackey lackey (with plague in game, lol!) and 2 lands. Then he needed g for krosan, but i go in waste/vindicate mode on his lands to secure my win.
1-0

Round2: elfstaff 2-1
My team-mate. G1 I kept a godhand, but then draw lands lands lands...g3 he goes the same, and 3 plagues gave me enough time to bash him with mishra and elspeth.
2-0

Round 3: dragonstompy 2-1
g1 i had nohing but kept anyway, and i lost in five turns. g2 and g3 were a cakewalk... thanx to my fow and removal, he goes topdeck mode in 2-3 turns. Disk always won the game, with the 3rd ability of elspeth. g3 he cast chalice@3 (and I drew in order: crucible, vindicate, jace, jace :cry: ) and needle naming disk. EE@ got rid of chalice, vindicate of needle and disk of the rest!
3-0

Round 4: aggroloam 0-1
g1 was the crap above. g2 i resolved 2 relics and a tormod, and I can't figure out how he managed to resist however... a jund charm on my graveyard, in reponse to my crucible, kept me away from WW to cast elspeth until the last additional turn.
3-1

Round 5: stupid burn 0-2
No (further) comments
3-2

Round 6: belcher 2-0
Another not particulary difficult MU. g2 mishra and mage (naming ETW) bashed him to death. I cast 3 standstill and never see a fow. But he can't risk with my 10 cards hands... the only relevant draws he made was xantid swarm (that got STP), a land and LED / chrome (which got respectively wasted and EE'd).

Next week hope i can play and do a better result, even if I'm not dissatisfied with this one. 2'00 a.m., better go to sleep.

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

That's really not surprising. You make a lot of assumptions without actually testing anything. The comments you've made about card interactions are laughable to anyone who has actually played with (or against) the deck you are "analyzing".

When I posted the deck, I stated that I was interested in feedback from people who tested the deck. Not simply read the list and grasped at straws, which you do repeatedly.

I removed the list to reduce chances of running up against it in Chicago. I'd much rather play against your version. So please, keep promoting that.

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IIs the list your refering to the one that looks like a combination of stax manabase with landstill configuration? If so I wouldn't fear running up against it, as I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to play something they have less then a month to test.

Rockout may not know the ins and outs to your list, but he is a very experianced landstill player and though he may nag like a whore it is imperitive that you both understand that your both completely different players.

vis you apparently like to sacrifice efficiency for explosiveness. Rockout you like to have answers over raw power/ manipulation.

I personally enjoy playing a 60 card pile of good cards. I'm sorry they just mesh well together somehow. Raw power? WTF?

Tournament report from the Grid tournament:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland - marry me please
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins - didn't use it once

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [JGC] Counterspell - second worst card in the deck
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [AP] Vindicate - amazing the best card
2 [SC] Decree of Justice - I cycled decree twice all day and both times were on turn 3 to find my fourth mana for wrath
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction - 2nd best card in the deck
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [REW] Wrath of God - worst card in the deck

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague - good
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane - amazing
SB: 2 [TE] Perish - eh
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo

Round 1: Pat Kellaher - My teammate - TES 1-2
Game 1: He chants me I CS and don't force wish cuz he has 5 cards in hand He goes dark rit cabal lotus petal x 3 tendrils. play mistake hoorah
Game 2: He AD at 3 life.
Game 3: I keep the nuts hand of force, bs, ee, fetch, cs, and other. I bs into the rest of my mages and don't see a 2nd land until he goes off with a chant protected igg loop.

Round 2: Brent Gilmore - MUC 1-1-1 Nice Guy
Game 1: It ends with all my ee's and vindicates in the gy with 10+ lands unable to untap due to a b2b. Skybreaker gets there.
Game 2: I am able to 3 for 1 jace and 2 b2b with ee.
Game 3: We go to time. I probably could have won if I didn't play the last 5 extra turns poorly.

Round 3: Michael Maclean - Goyf Sligh 2-1
Game 1: Multiple PoPs and stping a double pumped factory.
Game 2: Ajani wins this match up.
Game 3: I have double mage double halo naming PoP, Bolt, Fireblast, PoP. I played this game like a frantic mother looking for her lost son.

Round 4: Brian Popp (BPopp) 0-2 Rgb Gobos Nice Guy
Game 1: I get swarmed. I answer a lot of dudes but lose to multiple ringleaders.
Game 2: He has triple port active. I have triple plague out. No joke. 20 turns later I don't see a win condition and lose to krosan grip and earwig squad.

Round 5: Chris Rock 2-1 Nice Guy
Game 1: I string a lot of CA
Game 2: I lose to turn 1 teeg off chrome mox and to a jitte equiped goyf. He vindicates my land like a champ when next turn I had wrath o well.
Game 3: He deeds away his chrome mox, needle naming ee, and jitte to kill my ajani. Whoops.

Round 6: DJ My other teammate 0-2 Dragonstompy.
Round 1: I lose to red akroma.
Round 2: His opening hand was triple SSG, double magus, city of traitors, Mountain. I force the first magus, cs the second magus and lose to the third magus. Must be nice.

Wrath is by far the worst card in this deck. Having to try to assemble 4 mana through wastelands, ports and vindicates is just awful.

All in all, a shitty meta for landstill. There was a lot of survival, goyf sligh, goblins and DS. I should have played mono red burn.

No props or slops cuz I scrubzored. Why can't I play aggro control? Where are you aggro control? The next person I see casting a PoP at me I might leap the table.

Why do you need Relic? You're better off having a 4th copy of MM, 3rd copy of Runed Halo and a 3rd copy of Perish. Reason why I say this is better because those cards tend to be better in terms of raw power in many match ups. Against Thresh, having Perish is much more insane than Relic; even kills Teeg, which I also think is awesome. Extra Runed Halos and MM would also make combo and Burn match ups easier to handle.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Why do you need Relic? You're better off having a 4th copy of MM, 3rd copy of Runed Halo and a 3rd copy of Perish. Reason why I say this is better because those cards tend to be better in terms of raw power in many match ups. Against Thresh, having Perish is much more insane than Relic; even kills Teeg, which I also think is awesome. Extra Runed Halos and MM would also make combo and Burn match ups easier to handle.

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This is true. You just blew my mind. Thanks dude. No sarcasm intended.

Someone forgot aggroloam and ichorid... perish does nothing against ichorid and does little vs aggro loam...i do agree that perish is a good card, with all those green/elves/zoo/progenitals/aggroloam/thres I saw the other day I really woul've had perish instead of wrath in my deck. Also, against all these decks i've mentioned perish works like a less-expensive-less-specific-mana-investment-single-sided-wrath-of-god, which makes it absolutely insane (though does nothing against the 7-8 gobbos in the room, and merfolk too). But against aggroloam I'm not so sure I'd prefer perish above relic, in the ichorid MU there's really no point to prefer perish instead of relic. :frown:

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Originally Posted by gustha

Someone forgot aggroloam and ichorid... perish does nothing against ichorid and does little vs aggro loam...i do agree that perish is a good card, with all those green/elves/zoo/progenitals/aggroloam/thres I saw the other day I really woul've had perish instead of wrath in my deck. Also, against all these decks i've mentioned perish works like a less-expensive-less-specific-mana-investment-single-sided-wrath-of-god, which makes it absolutely insane (though does nothing against the 7-8 gobbos in the room, and merfolk too). But against aggroloam I'm not so sure I'd prefer perish above relic, in the ichorid MU there's really no point to prefer perish instead of relic. :frown:

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You bring in E plague against goblins and merfolk not perish. Also, Perish isn't replacing relic. Relic is being replaced for the 3rd perish, the 4th mage, and the 3rd halo. The aggro loam/ichorid MU gets a little tougher without the GY hate, but you can bring in 7 cards against both of those decks: Runed Halo x 3 and Mage x 4.

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

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Originally Posted by rockout

You bring in E plague against goblins and merfolk not perish.

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I said I was thinking of replacing MD wrath with perish, at least 1/1 split, due to the massive presence of green permanents to destroy (tarmo mongoose terravore progenitals elves) but perish does nothing against gobbos and merfolks (yeah, my sentence may have been not so clear, was just a train of thoughts...).

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Also, Perish isn't replacing relic. Relic is being replaced for the 3rd perish, the 4th mage, and the 3rd halo. The aggro loam/ichorid MU gets a little tougher without the GY hate, but you can bring in 7 cards against both of those decks: Runed Halo x 3 and Mage x 4.

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I understand this, but still i'm not so convinced... I've tested 3 mage 4 cb 2 sdt (+1 MD) and felt much better than 4 mage 3 halo 2 ajani (actually you can bring in 9 cards against aggroloam, and perish too replacing wrath). I was thinking (and again, I apologize if I couldn't explain myself well) that those 3 slots could easily be, in my sb, 2 perish (can come in replacing wrath or paired with wrath, my disk or an explo out) +1 open slot (tormod?4th mage?). So my problem is that perish, that's a really good card i've always wanted to play, can fit in my sb only replacing GY hate (and maybe adding the 4th mage).

My sb atm (posted above):
3 Mage
4 cb
2 sdt
3 relic
3 plague

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

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From what I understand from rockout consultants list has a terrifying matchup against anything named loam, and for that matter astral slide doesn't help things either. Personally I md relics and vendillion clique against loam/ teps/ survival/ thresh the list goes on and on. But my weakness becomes the long game against other landstill models because of this.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

Realizing that the builds are remarkably different with regards to UWb Landstill (I am playing Konsultant's list) what would be the good SB cards to play against WRg Loam Slide.

It's relevant cards are:

Decree of Justice
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Resounding Thunder (6 damage cycled under standstill)
Slide
Rift
Knight of the Reliquary/Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks
STP
Lightning Helix

I feel that while I do have manlands and I do have my own Decree of Justice that his loam will bury me. He brings in ancient grudge and krosan grip to deal with artifacts, so I'm thinking I should run extirpate in the board hit his loam and dominate the standstill match up with man lands and my own DoJ.

I would take out my 3 wraths. I was also thinking of boarding in Elspeth/Anjani Goldmane.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

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Well I can honestly say that in all of my events that I have ever played I have yet to face this deck. I would treat it like aggro loam, board out the sweepers for Mage's and Ajani. Unlike Aggro Loam they have a considerable number of ways to deal with a mage. Ajani and bulk card advantage are your only real ways to win this match. If I get bored some day i'll proxy it up and play out some games to see how the deck plays out. I think Counter magic with the Mage's and Ajani should be enough to beat this deck but that is with zero actual testing. You would definetly need a strong hand and need to get an early Standstill with enough of a threat that they would have to break it. I've played against Rifter plenty of times and counter magic should be your ace in this match.

Hi,

I'm just getting this deck together and started testing...

I only had one question: I was under the assumption that Cunning Wish was normally played, but in alot of decks I see Vindicate instead.

What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

My meta is with quite some DreadStill, Rg Goyfsligh/Goblins and Aggro-Loam and Stax(60%). The rest of the decks are some Rocklike decks and scrub(30%). Threshold, LandStill are hardly played(5%). There are some combo players, but only 1 or 2 who can actually play the deck...

In this meta wich card would be better...

BB

I think the matter of wishstill vs non-wish builds is just a matter of playstyle. Wishstill and Landstill just play different. Test them both and see which you like better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Hi,

I'm just getting this deck together and started testing...

I only had one question: I was under the assumption that Cunning Wish was normally played, but in alot of decks I see Vindicate instead.

What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

My meta is with quite some DreadStill, Rg Goyfsligh/Goblins and Aggro-Loam and Stax(60%). The rest of the decks are some Rocklike decks and scrub(30%). Threshold, LandStill are hardly played(5%). There are some combo players, but only 1 or 2 who can actually play the deck...

In this meta wich card would be better...

BB

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I'm 99% sure you're talking about the Dutch meta
My (limited, online) experience with cunning wish is that you're wishing for some form of enchantment/artifacthate anyway, so you might as well invest the 3 mana in a vindicate and do it a turn earlier :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Hi,
What are the advantages of Vindicate over Cunning Wish and in wich matchups do they care.

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Vindicate answers the problem a turn earlier, and can hit land. It's also an out to opposing Planeswalkers which I guess don't see a ton of play outside Landstill but in the mirror seems relevant.

You lose a little bit of flexibility since I used to have Extirpate, Dismantilling Blow, Enlightened Tutor and Slaughter Pact as my 4 targets. So with Vindicate you don't have MD access to grave hate, and you don't have the Tutor to fetch Crucible or Humility. Of coarse you gain 4 SB slots though so games 2 and 3 you gain a bit of flexibility.

I think the gain in speed from Vindicate is better though for dealing with Artifacts, Enchantments and Creatures and it's ability to capitalize on opponent's mana base if they're struggling already.

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, but my real questions was, in wich matchups is wich card better? In my assumption:

• Vindicate better: Stax, DreadStill, Mirror.
• Cunning Wish better: Goyfslight/Burn/Goblins, Aggro Loam.
• Matchups that I don't know and like to know: The Rock, Threshold, Merfolk.

ATM I'm testing the Vindicate build. This is the build:

Quote:

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1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Standstill

3 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshare

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate

Sideboard

4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Chainer's Edict

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Choices:

As I said Vindicate is being tested. I like Elspeth, but think one is enough because Landstill isn't played that much here. 4 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands because I only play 2 Decree of Justice.

No Academy Ruins or Tolaria West. Tolaria West was to slow every time. Academy Ruins was to slow and the colorless mana was a pity. I might drop Wastelands for a Ruins and a Dust Bowl.

The Sideboard is completly netdecked but works wonderfully.

Any comments?

BB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

As I said Vindicate is being tested. I like Elspeth, but think one is enough because Landstill isn't played that much here. 4 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands because I only play 2 Decree of Justice.

No Academy Ruins or Tolaria West. Tolaria West was to slow every time. Academy Ruins was to slow and the colorless mana was a pity. I might drop Wastelands for a Ruins and a Dust Bowl.

The Sideboard is completly netdecked but works wonderfully.

Any comments?

BB

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Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smog

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

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I like your replies, but can't you be more clear... Why wouldn't I play 4 Mishra's Factories?

Why can Dustbowl only be played in the Wishstill build?

With my experience with Tolaria West I found it slow. It cost three mana, for a not immidiate effect. So I never casted it before turn 6, wich is slow.

BB

About Elspeth, I know she is amazing, but I won't likely play the mirror so one is enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smog

Don't run more than 3 mishra's. Run 3 wastelands or none. Don't know what tolaria west being 'slow' means, it's a transmute that you can get either piece to the recurring EE combo with. Don't run Ruins without tolaria west. Don't run Dust Bowl unless you're playing wishstill.

And I'd play 2 elspeths. She's amazing. But that's a personal call I guess.

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Why on earth would you only run 3 Mishra's? You always want to see one, and they get better the more you have. It's one of the key cards in the deck, an auto 4-of.

In regards to Dust Bowl: I'm currently playing it in my list that doesn't have Cunning Wish. The use of Dust Bowl is just a different strategy. I, also, don't run Vindicate, so LD is not a large part of my gameplan. Dust Bowl destroys the random annoying lands (manlands, volrath's stronghold, academy ruins) and, in some situations, can be useful in cutting off a color. I see no connection between Cunning Wish and Dustbowl.

Oh yeah, run 2 Elspeths. You want to see one every game. If you have one in play and you draw another, no big deal, because you already won by having one in play. Elspeth is the best card that happened to Landstill since Spell Snare.