Since when has 'contributes nothing to the format' become a criteria to keep a card banned? And your surmise that they withhold harmless cards like Twist and Vise on the banned list feels pretty far-fetched too.
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Since when has 'contributes nothing to the format' become a criteria to keep a card banned? And your surmise that they withhold harmless cards like Twist and Vise on the banned list feels pretty far-fetched too.
Hmm... this deck would be hilariously badly hilarious:
4 Black Vise
4 Standstill
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Thunderous Wrath
3 Fireblast
4 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
2 Island
//T1 Vise, T2 Standstill. Either opponent casts a spell and gives you 3 cards or Vise slowly kills them (or you play multiple burn spells to force them to draw 3 and take more Vice damage).
//Goblin Guide + Vise is funny too, partly offsetting the drawback to Guide.
//Standstill also works pretty well after a T1 Delver or Guide while you start building up burn spells in hand. Basically, you can play UR Delver-still with Vise lolz
//////OR Something like this
4 Black Vise
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Winter Orb
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Galvanic Blast
3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Fireblast
4 Great Furnace
12 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
Lets say, the fact that it "contributes nothing to the format" isn't an appealing argument to get a crowd behind the unban-Wagon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
WotC unbanned/unrestricted a lot of cards the day they banned/restricted others in the last 8 year (like Restrict Gifts, unrestricted Gush or Restrict T4K, unrestricted Gush or others) while ever Pat their own shoulders to keep the B&R list Compact. I don't believe this happens accidential
Wrong question - I only ask how it will benefit my wallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
A card should be banned only if it is broken. I do not see any more reasons besides that and ante cards..
If the card proves too strong, just ban it again. The cardpool is very dinamic - always shifting with new weapons. I dont understand these fears. These cards dont deserve to be banned forever. Specialy iconic cards like survival.
Take care. :)
It WAS broken. Mindtwist today has only the Problem that nobody really cares about it's UNBANNING and it adds absolutely no new, fancy, desired archtype/interaction to Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelmatix
Banning and Unbanning cards in Rotation is how Yu-Gu-Oh is handled, not MTG. Meta shifts are predictable if you ban/unban cards.
The part about Iconic cards is strange. Most cards gained their iconic Status through being on the B&R list at times, that just doesn't mean that the Power 9(10), Mana Drain, Yawgmoths Will and Balance should ever enter the Legacy Cardpool
Come on... you are assuming no one will care or play Mind Twist... how can you say that?:frown:
About the iconic part i understand what you said. But if you look at Survival you will see lots of players (in diferent threads) talking about it.
Sheer power-level is only part of the reason why cards are banned in M:tG. Its actually how that power impacts or would impact the format for better or for worse that gets a card banned or unbanned.
This is why Memory Jar was emergency banned. This is why Skullclamp was banned. And, strangely enough, why Brainstorm isn't banned: outside of non-blue decks getting the shaft, the most powerful one-drop in Legacy remains untouched because it helps a variety of non-aggro decks.
As far as Mind Twist goes, it wouldn't do anything for or against the format metagame as is, so I doubt WotC is even considering it.
There's not much to asume. Mindtwist won't make new archtypes/strategies viable other than creating random "T1 Trinishphere"-like experiences here and there. So what does WotC or the playerbase gain from an unbanned Mindtwist other than shitstorms as a result of the possible T1 blowouts in the long run? Nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelmatix
We have a more than 220 pages long B&R list discussion thread in this Forum. Just because people talk about cards and make a lot of iffy examples how banning/unbanning cards is healthy for the format doesn't mean WotC has to take that serious. Just look at the Poll there...
Indeed. However, looking at the current Banned list, I see three or four main candidates for unbanning:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Black Vise - Yes, it accelerates aggro decks to an extent. Yes, it's powerful. There's no question of that. But a Black Vise on its own cannot race the combo decks in the format. It poses the largest problem to midrange decks, such as Nic Fit. Could it be un-fun? Possibly, but then that's why I say it's a candidate, rather than a certainty.
Imperial Seal - Unlikely to come off, for financial reasons; Portal: Three Kingdoms wasn't exactly a common set. In fact, I believe that it had the shortest print run outside of the original four sets. It's a guaranteeed tutor for any card. However, I feel that the card, on the whole, is about adequate for power-level and fun.
Library oif Alexandria - This is the one I think is going to cause the most controversy, but I think it's perfectly fine now, as there are relatively few hard control decks in the format. Is it a powerful card? Again, yes. But it wouldn't push control decks to the top of the heap single-handedly. This is probably in a similar position to Imperial Seal above, and won't be unbanned for financial reasons.
Yawgmoth's Bargain - WE have Griselbrand in the format, and this is much weaker than that. I think this is a pretty safe unban at this point. Again, this is an extremely powerful card, but I don't think it would stagnate the format.
Maybe I'm just insane. Someone feel free to tell me if I am, but these all look like positive potential unbans.
The two biggest beneficiaries of a Mind Twist unban would probably be Nic Fit and Pox. Not opening up a new archetype isn't a reason to keep it banned. If no one at all runs it, it shouldn't have been on the list anyway. If two tier 2 decks run it and get better as a result (which I regard as unlikely) then the format has gained something. "Unfun" (which is essentially what the trolling argument boils down to) isn't a reason to keep it banned.
But then again, I've also advocated for the experimental unbanning of Balance to help creature-light control decks so I tend to have a broad view of what should be unbanned.
Edit to respond to Darkenslight:
I think LoA might be safe, and I'm fairly certain that Vise would be.
On the other hand, Bargain is horrendously broken and is vastly more dangerous than Griselbrand because it isn't a creature (and thus is harder to remove), is hardcastable (especially with Grim Monolith running around), and can be used to draw more cards because you can go life-by-life. Also, while Sneak Attack and Show and Tell do cheat Griselbrand into play, the ways of cheating Bargain into play are good as combo enablers on their own (the classic Academy Rector +Cabal Therapy route, for starters). Imperial Seal simply should not exist as a 4-of in a format with Gitaxian Probe.
Don't wipe half my argument against Mindtwist under the rug. 1) It adds nothing to the format, 2) it creates undesireable and random blowouts like Trinisphere/Balance did in Vintage, 3) as a result of point #2 WotC is in danger of a shitstorm after a certain amount of top level players get blown out. Ergo, I doubt WotC is interested in getting Mindtwist unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Unbanning Balance is crazy. Establish Counterbalance + SDT (+ Jace) and destoy your opponents Hand and board for 2 mana (while being a good flip to Counterbalance) Sounds totally fair. Heck, peeps complain about Terminus being unfair. What about pairing Wrath of God with Mindtwist for a total of 1W and without any casting-restrictions?
LoA is not only a money issue. I play it in Vintage and it easily runs away with the game. 3-4 extra cards drawn in an average game is serious. I doubt it makes sense to hand such a threat to the Legacy control players as Library-Wars would take over wallets and the metagame.
Bargain would enable Storm to run a full 4 of this engine without deckbuilding restrictions unlike Ad Nauseam. Not sure if the Community would welcome this. Sidenote: the fact that Griselbrand is a creature makes it MUCH better than Bargain (manacost aside) as it is a kill option itself which you can Ride to victory on the back of drawn counterspells. The "can be removed by StoP"-argument is a weak one if you draw 8+ cards per turn to protect it. It would be news to me that Bargain reads: During your upkeep, gain 7 Life, your opponent looses 7
We have a more than 220 pages long B&R list discussion thread in this Forum. Just because people talk about cards and make a lot of iffy examples how banning/unbanning cards is healthy for the format doesn't mean WotC has to take that serious. Just look at the Poll there...[/QUOTE]
If they don't... well maybe they should... :wink:
Unban Bargain? Or Balance? Wait, I'm going for chips, this will be lovely evening...
I have to laugh when people suggest Balance is alright to unban (or unrestrict). I really don't remember if I read this in an actual Wizards article, or some other place, but the fundamental problem with Balance is that it punishes your opponent for playing the game correctly and making good decisions. The card can essentially read: "Did you piss away your hand yet are still behind on board? Good, now your opponent is screwed." Alternatively, as you point out, Balance rewards you for playing Artifacts and Enchantments, since it doesn't interact with them. It isn't difficult to make some kind of Stax deck that can vomit out it's hand full of Artifacts, then Balance to Mind Twist, Wrath, and Armageddon your opponent all for the bargain price of 1W. Seems really good, as long as you are the one playing it, not having it played versus you. It essentially means there would only be one "fair" deck (5 color Stax), decks that can counter Balance so to not lose immediately, and Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
In reality, Black Vise does almost the same thing. Vise makes it incredibly difficult to play Control, since holding cards up becomes a big liability. There are also those games where you get a bit mana screwed and your opponent draws 3 Vises and now you lost.
I actually think the Mind Twist would be interesting, giving ramp a real boost in power, so decks like Nic Fit could be major players. I wouldn't say it's "fine to unban" since I'd want to test it, but the fact that you could randomly get your hand ripped on turn 2, to me, isn't much different than the change that ANT might just kill me on turn 2 (or Tin Fins, or TES, or Belcher). At least if they blow their load to take my hand with a Mind Twist, I haven't actually lost, since we are both going to be low on cards, I have a chance to top-deck better and win. When a Storm deck blows me out, I flat out lost; next game. I am not sure why potential Storm based blowouts are inherently "more OK" than discard based ones, when Storm flatly wins you the game, and Discard just puts you in top deck mode (which, if it comes later in the game, you will probably still win if you are ahead on board).
So how realistis it is to see an unban on Frantic search? I'd really love to play that card in Solidarity/High tide decks.
A man can dream, ha :rolleyes:
LoA I don't think would be too powerful although I don't believe it could ever come off due to availability and cost restrictions.
Clearly you weren't playing Magic back when people could hardcast or cheat out bargain consistently on TURN 2 in Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Let me reiterate... : STANDARD! STANDARD! TURN @king 2! This is a format where people now win with Maze's End.
While Bargain doesn't slide into Tin Fins, there are other ways to get it out (Sol Lands, Rituals, Moxen, Monolith, Academy Rector+Cabal Therapy) and it's much much harder to remove. It also doesn't bite you in the ass if your life is below 14 because it doesn't care about multiples of 7. You immediately draw a ton of cards, 1 by 1 with plenty of stack control, and can then cast a bunch of stuff and win.
Imagine Bargain in an ANT shell. With Mystical Tutor banned, Bargain is actually easier to tutor for and could just straight up replace Ad Nauseam (because you can run it as a 4-of and not worry about flipping another and losing 5 life).
EDIT: Oh, someone already posted both of those points. I was just so outraged at seeing Bargain mentioned I auto-replied. LOL.
Is a card really that broken if it is not restricted in MTGO classic? I've never played the format but it appears to be an in-between Legacy and Vintage format (without power). How did Bargain and Memory Jar performed in that format?
I haven't played Vintage in years, but I did play during the 4 Trinisphere era, and the shape of the random blowout wins Trinisphere created are markedly different than the random blowout wins that an unbanned Mind Twist would create. The major issue with Trinistax and Stacker with 4 Trinisphere was that they could drop it turn 1 with incredible consistency; the de facto requirement was simply to draw a single copy of a 4-of because of the high density of ways to get to 3 mana on turn 1. In Legacy, where Crypt/Lotus/Sol Ring/Mana Vault/Moxen are all banned, the ability to achieve a critical mass of mana early on is much less than it is in Vintage, where Twist is legal as a 4-of and where Mana Drain (a card whose Twist-abuse has ample historical precedent) is also legal. So what random blowouts are you concerned by? Turn 1 Swamp, Rit, Mindtwist? That already exists in better form in Pox as turn 1 Swamp, Rit, Hymn. Jund and BUG wouldn't run it for the reasons people have already stated. So that leaves Elves as the fast mana deck that can potentially engage in early shenanigans with Twist, and Elves doesn't want to do that as has already been stated. I guess 5c Stax would be able to do that also, but I don't think it would make the deck meaningfully competitive. Wizards doesn't lose anything from unbanning a card that has the remote, theoretical potential for creating random losses, and the players gain a card that will probably do nothing and a shorter banned list, both of which are desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Peeps can complain about the unfairness of Terminus all they want, that doesn't make it relevant to this discussion. The sheer number of creature-centric decks at the top of the format makes the notion that Terminus is unfair totally laughable. U/W Miracles is the closest thing the format has to a real control deck, and it is among the worst performing of the top tier. I'm not saying that Balance will be fair, I'm saying that it's been banned or restricted for more than 15 years in every format and that the changes that have taken place during that time merit at least an experimental unbanning, especially as creature power creep continues. If decks with Balance dominate for 3 months, so be it. I'm actually pretty skeptical of that, and again, if it makes Miracles better and Stax more competitive the format has gained.Quote:
Unbanning Balance is crazy. Establish Counterbalance + SDT (+ Jace) and destoy your opponents Hand and board for 2 mana (while being a good flip to Counterbalance) Sounds totally fair. Heck, peeps complain about Terminus being unfair. What about pairing Wrath of God with Mindtwist for a total of 1W and without any casting-restrictions?
LoA is not only a money issue. I play it in Vintage and it easily runs away with the game. 3-4 extra cards drawn in an average game is serious. I doubt it makes sense to hand such a threat to the Legacy control players as Library-Wars would take over wallets and the metagame.