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Man, I thought that list would spark some discussion, particularly because can have thought knot in the 75. there are a lot of sweet interactions, but if no one even wants to say anything, I guess I'll just goldfish it or something. I can't do anything else without buying scapeshifts, so I really wanted peoples input.
i would still like to know what people think of the lands matchup, and if its as bad as i think it is. do you guys play rest in peace?
- Valakut with only 8 mountains is risky and often won't kill unless you get the 8th landQuote:
Originally Posted by Wordslinger
- You can't afford to run Diabolic Intent if you're running only 4 creatures - you at least need a dryad arbor
- Your only ramp is Vet and you have no tutors for it - you have very small odds of getting to 7 lands before turn 5
- You can't Scapeshift into Depths well because Scape puts lands in tapped, so you have two turns of doing nothing before you get your 20/20.
- 7 black sources is probably too few
- Depths + Scape don't belong in the same list because they do the same thing - win you the game, but strain your manabase and lose to wastelands. You don't gain much from playing both other than a worse manabase.
- You're only playing ~15 cards which give you board position, or interact with your opponent in any way. You have lots of filtering but very few cards that actually do anything - not having creatures means your removal will be more taxed, and you don't have enough removal even for a standard list.
Looking at the first few sample hands I tried:
- Wish, Deed, Deed, Grove, Depths, Swamp, Taiga
You do nothing until turn 3-4 at the earliest.
- Therapy, Wish, Deed, Stage, Depths, Forest, Foothills
You have a single Therapy, a bit of slow interaction, and lethal on turn five. Might get there if you can snipe a swords / your opponent isn't faster than you.
- Truths, Deed, Vet, Valakut, Grove, Badlands, Stage
If your opponent has no way around Vet, you can maybe Truths into something. If they do, you do nothing till turn four again.
- Valakut, Grove, Deed, Mountain, Badlands, Wish, PFire
You have Grove + PFire but not much else. If you're against a deck that's weak to Punishing but doesn't play Waste (i.e. Elves) you might be good, otherwise you don't do much till turn 3/4 again.
Scapeshift, Wish, Loam, Waste, Mountain, Vet, Deed
No green sources, no Vet sac outlet.
- If you want to go Scapeshift, you need more ramp cards and ways of getting Veteran into play (ie. GSZ) or you won't get there in time.
- If you want to go Depths, you need better tutors for them (Crop Rotation is wayyy better than Scapeshift at this)
- If you want to go Grove, you need better board control which means more creatures. Your removal won't be enough, particularly because you have difficulty ramping into it so Deed will usuallly be too slow.
There's our Scapeshift god!
@Wordslinger: Have some patience with the board, it isn't a chatroom, lol. I used to run RiP, but I don't really need the GY hate all that much in my meta. I'm fine with playing any Lands/Loam MU. My 4 PtE do a lot of work there and I get to make some Meren loops.
Thanks, Thats exactly the kind of feedback i wanted. Obv you mull the hands that do straight nothing, like hands 1 and 5 but it seems like this is a pile. Thing is, without your context, i would've spent hours trying to fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
The lands MU is pretty shitty, regardless the build you run. On overall i would not run RiP in any case on NicFit. Most lists more or less like a graveyard for themselves. Nonetheless i think Surgical Extraction is the best (better) card versus Lands because it can strip Loam, PFire and most importantly Dark Detphs entirely. Often times Lands players dredge all their crap into the yard, so it is fairly easy to snitch them. But always be aware of cycling lands or grove activation when doing so. And then we can say that Surgical Extraction is more applicable in other match-up's aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordslinger
That said, Junk definitely has an edge over the rest of NicFit on the Lands imho.
Some pointers here:
4 Path to Exile - 1 mana, instant, always lurking to snap remove Marit Lage with 0 downsides. 4 copies along with SDT, fetch, PTruths, and your additional CA engines it does show up more.
1 Karakas - While Karakas is the best answer to Marit Lage, it is also the weakest due to Wasteland (Rishadan Port) and Life from the Loam. The best thing to do is hold it on your hand until the critical turn.
Deathrite Shaman - Delivers early pressure, stops Loam/PFire but does dies to PFire.
Scavenging Ooze - Slower gravehate, but when eating up your own creatures you can boost it's thoughness to 3 or 5 to stay out of PFire range.
Pernicious Deed - Clears the board of Exploration and Mox'n. Denying them from Exploration means your slowing them down. Abrupt also works G1, but i would rather fo for Deed in G2/3. Be sure to keep an eye out for random Molten Vortex and/or Dark Confidant.
Veteran Explorer - Get basics and basics only. Always fetch for basics and keep duals on your hand unless you need to cast shit with it right away. Do not let them manascrew you out of the game. There is always a random Ghost Quarter, but ok.
Cabal Therapy - Crop Rotation is the preferred target. Or Gamble. They can Crop in response, so check the board state and jedi mind trick your opponent before snap blind calling something.
Fetchlands - If you don't need to break them, then don't. Having shuffle effects for SDT (or Library) will save your ass in finding that one Path.
Eternal Witness - Very solid card to play here since it reclaims Karakas or an additional Path.
Vindicate - can be a good card to break through a Maze lock.
Knight of the Reliquary - seems like a very solid card in this match-up because it will get big fast and can snipe into Karakas.
Lifegain - getting your life total above 20 points is always good since that means you can survive a hit with Marit lage.
Pithing Needle - Target may be Wasteland to gain value out of your Karakas or mana development. Or to stop Thespian Stage. But never just play a Pithing Needle and call something. Pithing Needle is good when you play it on something when is critical for that moment of the match. So often people snap cast a Pithing Needle on say Thespian Stage simply because that they are afraid of it taking over a game, and then it would never be relevant at all while a Wasteland is ripping them apart.. Hope it makes sense. While Thespian Stage is the most obvious target for Pithing Needle, it is often more important to name something so you can be kept in the game (Maze of Ith, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, etc).
Thoughtseize - when your on the play. But no more then 2. It is a really shitty topdeck after T1. Having that said, there are situations where you can Thoughtseize a Loam or PFire to follow-up with a Surgical Extraction.
Reclamation Sage - This card is never dead, plus it leaves a body. The ability to destroy a random Pithing Needle (on Deed or SDT) is really solid.
White mana - never tap out on white mana. If you tap-out they know you cannot snipe Marit Lage, unless you know exactly what they are holding and cannot poop on your head with Marit Lage.
Attack - Always attack with your creatures, even if they have Maze of Ith.
Hope this is what you where looking for.
This, exactly. The best PtE is the one you don't have to cast. Try to play some Jedi mind tricks, like touching your white mana source and "realising" you don't want to tap it. The key to running a good bluff is actually having it from time to time though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I love the second plains to be able to t2 a sigarda. Other than that it looks solid AF as f*ckQuote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Pain
No one has mentioned how you kill lands yet, the key card is Sigarda or Thrun. Hexproof is key to dealing them damage (or looping rhinos which takes way more setup and and mana though). Bonus points with equipment. Mega bonus points if you have a Sigada with a SoLaS for Marit Lage immunity.
If noncolored mana can be incorporated into Nic Fit, then I really like the potential for not just Thought-Knot Seer, but Eldrazi Displacer as well. In fact I'd be more excited about the Displacer. He answers basically any creature threat, whether it is Emrakul, Marit Lage, Mirran Crusader, etc. Displacer also works wonderfully well with many of Nic Fit's mulldrifters - Eternal Witness, Siege Rhino, Reclamation Sage, Primeval Titan, Thragtusk, SFM, etc. He even can do work protecting Gaddock Teeg against StP and other targetted hate. Can't afford to extremely build around him since he isn't GSZ-able, but one or two could really improve the power of several other pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordslinger
I think there is some potential for an Abzan Colorless list. Think one or two Wastes makes the cut, to be tutored by STE or Vet? Think 4.5 color Nic Fit. Play Rhino, drain 3. Attack next turn for 4, then flicker it twice (drain 6) (yes, takes two Wastes and 6 mana, but I can dream!). Having a couple Ancient Tomb may also fit and could power out faster GSZ for stuff.
don't forget the batterskull for vigilance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Displacer looks really cool, it's just difficult because it's not Zenithable and we can't play 3 like SFM. Are there any reasonable enablers along the lines of Strix in Abzan? I'm thinking Tidehollow Sculler maybe. Sculler is also great with Displacer itself
Irrelevant comment, sorry.
While it is true that 4x Rhinos + Tusk is overkill, I was thinking if the big presence of Eldrazi in the metagame might be a reason to play a 5 power creature that trades with smasher while gaining 5 life. Of course he is still (very) good against miracles.
Miracles and eldrazi are the top 2 decks in the online metagame, presence wise. Maybe it wouldn't be that overkill anymore to play tusk, while still having 4 rhinos?
I am thinking that he might be better than Meren: top 3 decks in the online meta are miracles, shardless and eldrazi. Tusk is better against miracles and eldrazi, while meren sucks against miracles but is decent against shardless and eldrazi.
Lately all the Meren value has been negated by opponent's DRS..quite frustrating
I've been yelling up this tree for weeks now (re Meren, not re Tusk). The annoying bit is that when Meren DOES get online, she's backbreaking. The worst bit about Meren, I think, is that no matter what's popular in the metagame, she's ALWAYS going to have the same problems she has now. If you aren't running Swords to Plowshares, you're running Deathrite Shaman and potentially Scavenging Ooze. If it's not Miracles, it would be Esperblade. If it's not Shardless, it would be Jund. And so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I need to really take a long, hard look at Meren. I like the card a lot, it's a busted card for sure, it's Zenithable, it seems like exactly what we want. And the maybe 35% of the time she actually get online uninterrupted, she is. Then there's the rest of the time.
I hate to say it because, as you said, when they haven't complete control over our gy with DRS she IS devastating. It's the low consistency of the card that annoys me a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
You said it better though: if they don't have stp they might have a drs in play (although we can always kill it with the plentiful removal arsenal at our disposal).
If it helps, I moved off of Meren and onto a 4th Rhino. I've been trying to reduce my GY interaction as much as possible in G1. I'm still keeping it in mind for a SB game where it might be better positioned though. My only GY interaction now is Volrath's and Eternal Witness which are both too good to pass up, but Volrath's vs Deathrite Shaman is pretty awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I love Meren, but getting constantly fucked by Karakas and DRS isn't where I want to be. And, the card is a solid do-nothing against Miracles. It's only great in the other BGx matchups, and I might as well just grind them out with walkers since they also handle Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Recurring Nightmare has more setup and requirements, but actually can end the game.
For Lands, it's never a great matchup. Usually you need to hope they don't Port you before you can cast Sigarda. Sigarda backed by casting Rhinos is essentially your win condition. Nightmare shines since it helps loop Rhinos through Glacial Chasm locks in the control builds.
It's not a complete do nothing, it does hit for 3 damage some times. That's better than what Recurring Nightmare will hit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Walker builds seem interesting but I'm not a Sorin fanboy, he's certainly powerful and I enjoy that he's the most metal card in the game aside from Mogis, God of Slaughter, I'm just not looking for non tutorable 6 drops though and nothing at lower mana really excites me. What I like most is getting to play things like Xenagod and Slaughter Games out of Jund without having to splash a 4th color. I think there's something to that, but I just can't seem to get it to work yet.
I might go back to it. But I've enjoyed reducing rather than increasing my graveyard dependence. With the builds I've been playing with that are a bit more creature focused I already have more points of interaction for the opponent so extending to the GY and letting them meaningfully interact with me there too isn't something I've been too happy to do.Quote:
Recurring Nightmare has more setup and requirements, but actually can end the game.
Intresting might try that aswell, but sofar the matchups ive been in most players board in gravehate against me, i guess its because i play in main things like ooze, deathrite, witness, therapies, meren and when playing jund the punishing fire engine. (not always all those cards at the same time but in some conjunction)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would reather have GY interactions game one when my opponents usually have a random deathrite or ooze at the most that i need to take care of. Id rather put something else in round 2/3 and board out GY interactions if needed. but that might just be me. I mean miracles play Rest in Peace. so does some death/stoneblade decks. death n taxes n more. so might be a meta thing. =)
I still think having the second Sigarda ain't no slouch move, as well. Doubling up against Shardless, Jund, and Miracles seems tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoline