[Deck] Death and Taxes

Hi @ll,

I want to give you a short "report” of my testing the 3-colour type of DNT (RW + G splash for Noble Hierarch).

I think the mana acceleration is what you want to have in DNT, but there aren´t enough card slots. I tried 3 Noble Hierarch but to get the full benefit you need 4 imho. But you lose so many tricks if you go for the 4 Noble Hierarch it´s not worth it. So I switched back to the “original” RW build with 1-off Fiend Hunter.

May be one of you guys has different experiences with the 3-colour build.

Cu

3-color D+T really has not had a reason to exist for a number of years. Back when the available creatures in white were crappy (up until about 2011), there was a strong incentive to go for two or even three colors. But there are so many good creatures that have been printed in the last few years that we can not even come close to fitting in all of the ones in white alone, much less the best ones from other colors also.

So, when I read Nina's words, I have to strongly advise her (him?) to stop using the Eidolon or at least use more lands capable of producing red mana. Honestly, the Eidolon is a card that punishes decks by inflicting extra damage for their actions. None of the other cards in D+T do that since it is essentially a control deck. The Eidolon is even somewhat antithetical to the entire strategy at work here. Considering its prohibitive color requirements, and the fact that you have only four lands capable of producing that color, I don't know how it was not stuck in your hand most games. I would be petrified to even tick my vial to three with that deck.

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On another note, can anyone report experiences with Warping Wail yet? Have you been able to cast it when you need it? Has it lived up to its potential? My own testing has stalled as I am only able to play casual games atm.

I played it at my last legacy weekly. Vs Burn and Rug Delver it didn't come in, vs Storm it won me games (we played some extra games for fun) and I felt very secure w/ it in my hand.

I lost vs Miracles but I was mana screwed / didn't have strong starts. But it still did some very relevant things g2 (countering a Council's Judgment, killing a Snapcaster that he was Jace-bouncing).

I think that what we want with Warping Wail is for it to pull its weight, or nearly pull its weight against stuff like Delver decks, Jund, Shardless, and random while delivering a powerful tool to beating the decks it seems to shine against (Miracles, ANT, Elves, Show and Tell). Either a person or all of us together will need to report findings, even if piecemeal, to figure out if that is happening.

warping wail has been decent for me in some cases, counter a terminus, kill some random dudes like shaman or delver, but still didnt test it enought, i m using it only in the sideboard.

slightly off topic here, i´m getting my D&T 100% foiled ! but i can´t decide wich basics foils i m going to run :/ any ideas ? which one do you guys run ?

the unhinged foils or the terese nielsen judge foils are both good choices.

Hey everyone, long time player but only very occasional poster here.

Been trying this stock list, featuring a main deck Wail + two in the sideboard:

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare

Non-Creature Spells;
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Warping Wail

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mutavault
9 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Warping Wail
1 Pithing Needle

Wail has been solid. There have only been a few scenarios where I've actually been sad to see it and it had little application in the matchup, but otherwise it's pulled its weight overall, especially out of the sideboard. The only problem I've found with it is when using its countermagic mode - we tend to either deploy threats or use Waste/Port often, so it looks pretty bizarre when you're not Wasting/Port/attacking with Vault. I feel if Wail catches on, people could play around it easily... But it definitely limits the opponent's options, which is what D&T is all about. Also annoying is when you have Thalia and Wail as well. This is fine vs combo where it essentially locks up the game as long as you have three mana up (finally having a diversity of combo answers, rather than just being permanent-based feels kind of amazing), but in normal scenarios vs. fair decks it can be quite awkward. In another note, I've never had problems casting the card so far, but thoughts on how the optimal monowhite manabase to support Wail should look like is much appreciated.

My conclusions so far is that it's quite good, but it has just enough friction with the generic main deck plan that it should be relegated to the sideboard, but definitely at least as a two-of. Sideboarding it in vs. the mirror and Elves as you cut crappy Thalias feels great.

Hi everyone, I am a legacy player in the Baltimore area and although this is my first post, I have been a follower of the DnT forum for the past few months. I've been playing legacy consistently for almost a year now and play exclusively Death and Taxes and was wondering if it would be cool if I posted a tournament report here of my 18th place (missing top 16 on breakers) finish at a local legacy 5k? I had a decent range of match-ups and the tournament had roughly 90+ players so a pretty decent sample size.

You don't need to ask permission for that! I'd, for one, enjoy reading it :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marungo

Hi everyone, I am a legacy player in the Baltimore area and although this is my first post, I have been a follower of the DnT forum for the past few months. I've been playing legacy consistently for almost a year now and play exclusively Death and Taxes and was wondering if it would be cool if I posted a tournament report here of my 18th place (missing top 16 on breakers) finish at a local legacy 5k? I had a decent range of match-ups and the tournament had roughly 90+ players so a pretty decent sample size.

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i would like to see it too :) gongratz on that finish and now target that top8 ;)

Thanks everyone! I'll post the report later tonight

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

warping wail has been decent for me in some cases, counter a terminus, kill some random dudes like shaman or delver, but still didnt test it enought, i m using it only in the sideboard.

slightly off topic here, i´m getting my D&T 100% foiled ! but i can´t decide wich basics foils i m going to run :/ any ideas ? which one do you guys run ?

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I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors and SneakShow has got Show and Tell, but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently, so you are likely to use your Ports and Wastelands aggressively, which in turn means you won't have your colorless sources available. And it costs 3 Mana under Thalia which is just bad.
The only matchup in which I think really shines is Elves because Port, Wasteland and Thalia are all quite useless and it's a matchups in which you don't want any sorcery to resolve (Climpse, Zenith and Natural Order will out-value you very fast or simply end the game). At the same time it doubles as a removal for Wirewood Symbiote which is just the worst card for you.
Same is true for the mirror match where it handles Mother of Runes (which is one of the things the mirror will revolve around).

If you want your DnT foiled-out, you obviously gotta get all them judge foils (Wastelands, Ports, Karakas and Plains). Good luck with that! :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors and SneakShow has got Show and Tell, but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently, so you are likely to use your Ports and Wastelands aggressively, which in turn means you won't have your colorless sources available. And it costs 3 Mana under Thalia which is just bad.
The only matchup in which I think really shines is Elves because Port, Wasteland and Thalia are all quite useless and it's a matchups in which you don't want any sorcery to resolve (Climpse, Zenith and Natural Order will out-value you very fast or simply end the game). At the same time it doubles as a removal for Wirewood Symbiote which is just the worst card for you.
Same is true for the mirror match where it handles Mother of Runes (which is one of the things the mirror will revolve around).

If you want your DnT foiled-out, you obviously gotta get all them judge foils (Wastelands, Ports, Karakas and Plains). Good luck with that! :P

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The reason why i m Playing Only in sideboard os bevause i want my main plan consistent as possible, but for testing purpouses i tend to side them um as much as i can to see in wich situations they are Good or not. So far has been decent from sideboard, Maybe 2 its correct, dont know yet.

And Yes i m going to start with Those :p i m currently selling some extra stuff so upgranding the japanese /korean ports and wastelands are already easyer, but its going to be fun for sure :)

(I had already written 90% of the report last night and when I awoke my computer had restarted in the middle of the night :( Worst news!)

Some things to note before reading:
- This was my first tournament with Vryn Wingmare in the deck. I didn’t ever think it was bad but I struggled taking out some of my flex spot creatures, but finally decided it was time.
- Armageddon was a last second decision. Like, morning of the tournament.
- Doing this mostly based off of memory so specifics are sometimes had to recall.

Here was my decklist:
Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
Spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
Lands:
9 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadin Port
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Warping Wail
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Absolute Law
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon

Onto the actual report!

R1: vs. 12 Post (L) (0-2)
Wasn’t 100% sure what I was playing against. Baltimore is a pretty tight Legacy community, but I did not recognize my opponent. I had never played vs. 12 Post before but I felt like I knew what I was doing
G1: I mulligan to 6 and keep a solid hand with Thalia and some other okay creatures, but with port being my only disruption. When he opens on Cloudpost, I know I’m in trouble. The game goes long and I actually beat him down to 5 with Thalia, Stoneforge, and Batterskull before Emerakul comes down, annihilates, and gets picked up by Karakas
Sideboard:
In – 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Council’s Judgment
Out – 2 StP, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Mother of Runes
G2: No luck for me. I mulligan to 5 and while I apply pressure and knock him down to 8 before he stabilizes, I still don’t have a wasteland. Eventually he has a turn involving Amulet of Vigor that allows him to play Titan and Ulamog in one turn all while leaving up Eye and mana to activate. My first draw after he does that? My first Wasteland of the match.
Record: (0-1)
(Side Note: I don’t feel like the match-up is impossible or awful, I was caught off guard and also got slightly unlucky)

R2: vs. R/w Painter (W) (2-0)
I don’t know if this is the consensus, but this match-up feels like we are heavily favored as all we have to do is disrupt the combo and then our creatures outclass their creatures. As you will see in game 1 you can make a lot of mistakes (not recommended) and still win.
G1: I keep a 7 and establish a board of Thalia, Wingmare, Mother, Revoker (Grindstone) and Crusader. I knock him all the way down to 8 before doing everything possible to allow him time to win. I make poor attacks, completely miss the interactions Welder can get going with a Painter and an artifact in the graveyard, and don’t swing for lethal when there is no reason not to. Thankfully Port is there to rescue me, keeping him low on lands and eventually I alpha and win. I end the match by apologizing to my opponent for winning when he played far superior
Sideboard:
In – 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Warping Wail
Out – 1 Mother of Runes, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I think)
G2: I feel like they cannot win if I disrupt the combo, hence my sideboard decisions. He opens with a turn 2 Magus which I slightly bait by opening on Port. I then play a plains and a Thalia, followed by a Revoker, and the game is elementary from there. I get down beaters, keep him off of mana after I kill the Magus in combat, and vial in a Revoker on the top on board when he is hellbent without either combo piece on the board.
Record: (1-1)

R3: vs. MUD (splash red) (W) (2-1)
Before the tournament I noticed a few people in the room were playing the new “Eldrazi” MUD deck with Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer. Thankfully my opponent, a local player, was on normal MUD since the other version feels like a much worse match-up.
G1: I keep a solid hand with Vial, Thalia, and a Stoneforge. I use 2 Wastes and a Port to keep his dangerous plays off of Sol Lands to a minimum, and eventually get a Batterskull on a Flickerwisp to swing for lethal.
Sideboard:
In – 1 Council’s Judgment, 1 Pithing Needle
Out – 2 Mother of Runes
G2: Not used to boarding vs. MUD AND keep a shaky hand, but it’s all irrelevant. He has Sol Lands a plenty, Wurmcoil (which I do plow), followed by Lodestone and Forgemaster while I am stuck on 2 lands.
G3: I have a great 7 with Thalia, 2 Revokers, a Vial, and 3 lands (1 Port, 1 Waste and a plains). I revoker his turn 1 monolith, get a Stoneforge out, topdeck a Jitte, and really just dictate the whole game. It ends with a Crusader holding a Jitte swinging for far more than lethal.
Record: (2-1)

R4: vs. Lands (W) (2-1)
Again, unsure about the consensus, but playing in Baltimore I feel pretty good about the Lands match-up, especially post board.
G1: He keeps a hand without Loam or Exploration initially and I punish him with Thalia, Avenger, Crusader, and another beater. Unfortunately I only get him to 1 before a loam, fire, Tabernacle, and a maze of Ith slow me down. I still have a 5 turn window where a Waste, Port, or Flickerwisp (I had 3 of each remaining in the deck), just win me the game by removing maze, but I miss entirely, and he eventually cobbled together enough lands to kill off all my guys and swing 3 times total (blocked once) with Marit Leige.
Sideboard:
In – 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Rest in Peace
Out – 3 Stp, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 4 Vryn Wingmare
I really don’t like plow in the match-up. I understand I’m in the minority, but I just don’t think we are consistently wing games where we plow a Leige.
G2: Not a particularly close game. Again he has no Exploration, and my Vial allows turns putting out Revoker on Diamond and playing Stoneforge. He actually whiffs on a loam and misses a land drop and it’s pretty easy to beat him down.
G3: Really tough and grindy game. He has Exploration finally and Loam while I have a Vial, Mom, Stoneforge, and an Avenger. I flood the board, using a Flickerwisp on a Maze to push him to 8 with a second Wisp in hand to help swing for lethal when he dredges into Chasm and Tabernacle and lands both in the same turn. The game from here is draw (play a land) go for a while with him dredging loam and eventually ending a turn with the combo on board and the aforementioned lands with him at 2 thanks to Chasm and the other Flickerwisp helping to push through damage. I untap, sacrifice the Wisp, tapping 2 to keep a Germ and Avenger alive, tap my 4 remaining lands (all plains) and cast ARMAGEDDON. People around the match silently freak out at how big a blowout it is and he nods and concedes.
Record: (3-1)

R4: vs. 12 Post (L) (0-2)
Ugh… I ran into 2/3 players in the 91 player tournament playing classic 12 Post and also get so close in 2/4 games.
G1: He mulls to 5 while I keep a loose hand in the dark with 2 wastes, a thalia, plow, and vial, and 2 other lands. He plays Glimmerpost which makes me happy, then crushes my dreams with a turn 1 needle on wasteland. The worst part in my first 5 draw steps are legitimately 5 lands and I never actually do anything.
Sideboard:
See round 1
G2: I apply pressure with Avenger, Vial, a Crusader, and Mom and aggressively Wasteland to try and kill him ASAP. It almost works, but 3 wastelands later and him at 3, he tops into needle on my port, chasm in the same turn with 2 cloudposts remaining. He then goes to 1, plays another Cloudpost, then sacrifices the Chasm, Glimmerposts up to 5 and plays Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I put him to 2 with Avenger and just hope for one more turn, but All is Dust crushes that dream.
Record: (3-2)

R6: vs. Miracles (W) (2-0)
I know this sounds silly, but this was my first tournament win against Miracles. I know the match is not impossible, but you gotta play really tight to win and I would always make a mistake or get a little unlucky.
G1: He mulligans to 6 and doesn’t have top. I play really tight and super conservative, having a Thalia and Sword forced, but landing another Thalia with a Mom and Karakas. I beat him to 6 before I get Terminus’d and Clique’d in response to my Vial=2 activation. I topdeck an Avenger off of that though, and although the game grinds on for a while after that, eventually my slow deployment of creatures overwhelms him.
Sideboard:
In - 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Council’s Judgment
Out – 4 StP, 1 Jitte
G2: He has top, but I play tight and really start to see how I have improved over the past year with the deck as I see him getting overwhelmed by my Sword of Fire and Ice, timely Wasteland on Volcanic Island, early disruption with Thalia, Wingmare, Waste, and Mom, and my own emphasis on protecting Thalia; something I was very poor with for a long time. I end up winning with a vial’d in Flickerwisp (those are so good in the match-up) that beats him to 2, forcing him to spin a top and terminus, to which I follow up with a Revoker on top and lock him out.
Record: (4-2)

R7: vs. Miracles (W) (2-1)
Didn’t really wanna follow one grindy match with another but thems the breaks! He had a fully altered Miracles deck and was a cool guy.
G1: I get shut down early on with 2 forces on both vial and Thalia. I get some threats down, but he has plows and snapcasters, and while I get him to 3 I run out of threats and he gets Counter/Top down with a Jace before I give in for time’s sake. He also blew me out at 1 point with main deck Spell Snare
G2: Tough and grindy game. I get a Cavern and Thalia down and follow-up with Karakas, and although he does blow me out with Snare again, I beat him to 6 before he is forced to Terminus. Eventually he gets Counter/Top down and manages to use 2 Plows to catch Thalia and I feel like the game is slipping away. However one turn he coucil’s judgments and only has 3 mana up. I draw and cast ARMAGEDDON with 1 floating. He tops, brainstorms, and tops, but it resolves, then I follow up with Vial and he has to decide if he wants to spin top to counter it. He does, but he misses land drops for several turns while I hit twice and land a Thalia. He never plays another land and I pull it out.
G3: Not as grindy or interesting a game. Basically he misses a land drop turn 4 and I waste him and play Thalia off of Cavern. Eventually I use a Vial to get Wingmare out too and despite having top, he never finds a third land and dies to the aforementioned creatures and a Flickerwisp on the last turn to move a Snapcaster out of the way to swing for lethal.
Record: (5-2)

Although I finished 18th (kinda salty a few days later haha!) I was really proud of how I played and how far I have come playing DnT. I love the deck and next time I’m aiming for Top 8.

Hey, good report. You are a good story teller.

I happen to think that the 12-Post Eldrazi matchup is miserable with standard tech sideboards (and just as miserable in game 1 no matter what, obv). When I was more active in my local scene, this deck was rampant. So was D+T though. I found that a couple Armageddon combined with a single Winter Orb, which could be tutored for, was about as strong a sideboard as I could ask for without devoting lots of space. The matchup never went into purely favorable territory, but I did steal a number of matches by tutoring for Winter Orb to buy time. Then I had the option to stall until I top decked one of my Armageddons. Also, Mangara is very good in this one.

Miracles was not around then. I think this tactic is sound Miracles tech, honestly. I hear that deck is popular. I think you have to think about cataclysm for the broader meta though.

IMO, GW or GWx D&T is just maverick. They evolved the deck to be mana-denialy and embraced Green.

If you want acceleration, I'd probably just go Chrome Mox. 2x Chrome Mox in place of Plains would give you acceleration, usually not see 2, and doesn't dilute the deck.

The 12-Post matchup is a walk for RW taxes. Not unloseable but probably something like 75%-25%.

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Originally Posted by Adan

I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors [...]but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently,P

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No it's not? Hoping they don't discard your hate bear, Kill you T1, or just go off through your hate is very much in their favor.

Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.

Do I really need to go on?


I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.

I haven't had the opportunity to test wail. This being said I am very hyped to try it. It's 1-2 of in the 75 by just looking at it. I like having a mix of permanent and spell-based answers to decks, and the card definitely .

This is my 75 with flex spots removed. (-1 mainboard, -3 sideboard). My main 60 has been pretty solid for the past 2 years (occasional upheavals to try weird shit like wingmare, which I think is pretty bad still, regardless of results that people have put up with it).

I am thinking something like a maindeck wail, sideboard wail, sideboard trading post and a sideboard ensnaring bridge. I have wanted to try trading post in this deck for a while just because of all of our artifacts. It's probably terrible. Don't be me. Play good cards.


4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
8 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Spellskite
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Serra Avenger
SB: 1 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing

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Originally Posted by tescrin

No it's not? Hoping they don't discard your hate bear, Kill you T1, or just go off through your hate is very much in their favor.

Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.

Do I really need to go on?


I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.

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It honestly feels like you're sugar coating things a bit here. In my opinion we shouldn't be looking at using a 2-mana instant to stop things like ponder but instead should looking at having a thalia-effect in play and having them under lock and key to an extent where them tapping 2 mana to cast Ponder is going to the most they can get to do. If we are to be succesful in this we will likely need stuff like ports and to have used our wastelands aggressively, not hold up 3 mana to counter things. It just seems less effective. Also, yes, countering a miracle can be great, but at the same time I feel like we beat miracles primarily by having enough threats and not over-committing them. Having 1-2 of these is 1-2 fewer creatures (unless you can persuade me that we are cutting plows, vials or equipment for this in our main deck?) we will have to recover from a terminus.

Look, I'm not trying to devalue the card, I'm feverishly looking forward to testing it out but I will be doing so from the sideboard and I'm quietly skeptical about it. There are plenty of unanswered questions that feel like they get lost in the feverpitch of this card. How often will the C-requirement be a problem? Like how often will you bring it in against the mirror in hopes of getting frisky with Mom but then see your only C-source wasted? How often will you be sitting with it in hand vs Storm with a mana base of port, plains, plains and not tapping their land for turn after turn while they cantrip and eventually discard your wail - that you have been signposting - and kill you? I could go on.

I hope to be proved wrong, and yeah once I get the chance I will be testing it out for sure. But yeah... color me skeptical.