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No, I'm describing Modern + duals + Force of Will and Daze + an absurd number of OP threats (Show and Tell, LED related mayhem and the Elves combos come to mind immediately).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Legacy is only all about Brainstorm and Ponder if WotC continues to let it be all about Brainstorm and Ponder.
And Ancestral and StP and the actual card Counterspell. And Preordain, Jace, Library, Green Sun, Loam, Recurring Nightmare, Sol lands, Cradle, Sanctum and the decks they fuel, and the list goes on. There's a ton of Legacy outside Ponder and BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
You are talking about Preordain + SDT taking the slots and turning Legacy into UW Blade mirrors? (Hyperbole)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
If that happened Jund would rule the meta. I don't think it will happen that way though. I think Preordain will take 4 of the slots and then we're up in the air as to where the shell goes from there. I think the meta would be substantially less blue, probably back towards the 50/50 thing we lived with from 2008 to 2010.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
So killing a lot of decks, reducing viable options and streamlining decks is just fine for the mere 20% drop of blue in the meta? Why is 50% blue fine and 70% isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
You're not killing a lot of decks you're just making them less consistent. In the process you're re-opening the option for decks like Zoo and Suicide to re-emerge and for decks like Jund and Maverick to compete on a more even basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It's not about what percentage is correct it's about not making one vector of play a no-brainer which is where we are at the moment. The vector you really want to use is blue cantrips to support whatever else you're doing. There is one very effective hate deck against that which is widely played, which is Death and Taxes. However D&T is not consistent enough to make more than rare appearances in the DTB section. Same for Elves, which is also widely played.
What's missing in this meta and has been for quite awhile is effective creature swarm strategies. That's because using cantrips to find 3 very powerful creatures is better than playing 3 very powerful creatures plus another 3 to 4 sets at the next tier down. It's the cantrips that cause the problem. You're always going to have 3 or 4 creatures that are the best. If that's all you have to play because you can reliably find them then very few other creatures will ever be played.
Because Blue is evil and everyone one here is sure that attendance would skyrocket if the monster is slain. Also, Miracles and Storm are basically the same deck, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
That's Brainstorm's fault. Exactly what the card and the color blue does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Is there a possibility to unban cards instead banning cards? Could be interesting as well. Unless something dramatic happens BS will never be banned.
Which decks specifically has Brainstorm pushed out of the meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
EVERY deck that would be efficient without it's inclusion are only made less attractive by its inclusion in the format. Thus having it in the format is likely to increase the number of decks playing or at the least, splashing blue for its inclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
remove brainstorm and its not likely people are splashing blue for ponder...maybe in modern but not legacy
The only way to really rebalance the banned and restricted list is to have a mass unbanning and then start chipping away at it like new.
If only they had a way to test this without affecting tournament play?... oh wait they do... MODO...and since its online the format adapts faster too.
I would argue the amount of decks that going to be "Splashing Blue" are in fact very low. Most decks are at the core Blue that is splashing other colours so the argument that Brainstorm would lead people to splash and play it I think is fundamentally wrong. People are interested in more than just Brainstorm and the lists we see reflect that. Ponder, Daze, Force, Probe, this class of cards together make a core of cards that is much stronger than the sum of its parts. People have little incentive to splash for Brainstorm if they are not in need of it. People though are incentivised to play that core of cards. Brainstorm in this regard is another cog in a mechine and not itself the mechanism of the formats destruction.
I'll meet halfway. TNN and Terminus are annoying and somewhat obnoxious, but they really require a lot of support and setup before that. I wouldn't miss either, but I think they're fine.
I think that banning Show & Tell and Counterbalance would be enough to make non-blue consistency engines worth playing, because there's a lot less "whoops I lose because I can't interact with this." Further, neither discard nor hatebears are as effective against either deck as they are against decks like Storm (which needs raw cards in hand to an extent, and is churning through mana).
The presence of both forces non-blue decks to devote more of their sideboards to deal with one or the other or both, diluting their matchups elsewhere. Most non-blue consistency engines are grindy by nature, so they should be able to grind out blue fair decks with higher card quality before getting an advantage engine online. Nic Fit is a good example -- the deck is very solid and actually pretty consistent, but has to completely warp itself to have a decent shot against Miracles or S&T, even BUG versions.
But I think Legacy players talking about banning a 1/1 for U sound soft and whiny. If this is the format where you have to be prepared, even after the bannings I suggest, to prepare for turn 2-3 kills from Storm and/or Elves, or start your turn 2 knowing that if you pass you're getting Batterskull dumped in your lap, or stop in your upkeep to have your only land ported, we should be able to to deal with a conditional 3/2 flyer with no natural defenses.
"But maharis, why is Legacy better with no Miracles and with no Show & Tell?"
The same reason it's better with no Survival of the Fittest or Flash. (And there's no reason Miracles couldn't exist still, it would just be more vulnerable early). If these spells survive the stack, the path uphill is far more difficult.
QFTQuote:
What's missing in this meta and has been for quite awhile is effective creature swarm strategies. That's because using cantrips to find 3 very powerful creatures is better than playing 3 very powerful creatures plus another 3 to 4 sets at the next tier down. It's the cantrips that cause the problem. You're always going to have 3 or 4 creatures that are the best. If that's all you have to play because you can reliably find them then very few other creatures will ever be played.
But Lemnear has been told all of these things quite a few times. I don't think his mind can be changed by stating the same ideas again.
@Zilla: I don't know that this is a fruitful way to approach that question. While I am confident that you could point a finger at stuff like the Loam decks and Maverick which have spiffy card engines of their own, these are inferior to just having cantrips. The Gentleman's Agreement fiasco was particularly funny/foolish because they banned the wrong card. That is to say, Reanimator, Show and Tell and Storm are all still doing fairly well because Mystical Tutor was not the best enabler they had. But the point I want to make is that the decks don't so much get shoved OUT as they do never get IN in the first place. Hence, we never sear about them because they can't dent the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
This is incredibly disingenuous, and you should know thatQuote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Strictly speaking, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape are both 1/1's but no one evaluates those cards like that, they are more often 2/2-3/3 or 2/3, and are evaluated as such, the same thing with delver, sure it's a bit more conditional (it needs to flip as opposed to playing lands) but the condition it needs to flip is incredibly easy to achieve, in any format with good disruption, delver is a 3/2 flier.
Sure we need to be prepared for those things, but those things aren't backed with daze and force, elves isn't going to daze your toxic deluge, stone blade doesn't usually stifle your liliana, and storm doesn't typically hymn you, delver is going to, and, more often then not,when you do kill it, it's costed you a lot to do so.
You keep repeating the stupid idea that people will keep playing decks like Miracles even without Brainstorm to make a point? I commented on this bullshit already three times and gave reasons why it is nonsense. I don't know why you are running in circles here.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I don't get the idea why you think "creature swarm" should be a viable and successful strategy in Legacy. Is there ANY official guideline that kt has to be the case? It's YOUR OWN point of view. It's on the same level as demanding that Mill should be a successful strategy in Vintage and that WotC should ban all cards that oppress Mill from being competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I'm far too liberal in regards to strategies and them dying over the years as the game evolves to stick to the idea of a certain everlasting metagame structure. Vintage is nowhere near the format it was like 8 years ago as the only playable creatures were Goblin Welder and Darksteel Colossus for example. Ergo calling a format flawed, if strategies die out is idiocy. You guys didn't care as Landstill died, did you? You however make a big deal if Death and Taxes replaces Goblins as the formats prime mono-colored Vial.dec! You didn't gave a fuck as UG Madness died, but you cried as Manadorks (Hierarch/DRS) fueled TNN instead of KotR
I have indeed talked about possible outcomes and different scenarios several times, then the discussion abates just to pop up a few weeks later with the same flawed logic brought up by the same people (see FoolofaTook) and I opt to stop my repeating one-sided analysis which only met by "but color-equality!" or other casual bullshit and straight move to insults as those usually seem to provoke more clever responses than logic lines of thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I agree wholeheartedly, but I was responding to a comment that framed it in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Brainstorm doesn't really edge out decks - it just forces those decks to run Brainstorm also. Colors are so easy to splash in this format that running blue for the Brainstorm/Fetch engine is elementary. Whether this is a good or bad thing is most certainly a matter of debate (see 500+ pages of this thread,) but it is what it is. It can easily be argued that as many or more decks are propped up by the consistency of the Brainstorm engine than are pushed out by it.
I like your humility and openess to discussion. Clearly, calling other people's opinions a "flawed logic" while bringing your own personal taste as a God-given knowledge is how a debate should look like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Your one-sided analysis have nothing to do with power of Brainstorm and the fact that the card is miles ahead of anything else available in Legacy pool is what should be discussed, not the casual bullshit like "I love to play with a card" etc. etc., 500 pages.
Do you pass on the ignorance of not-reading-but-commenting to your children or teach you them to comprehend what was written? "Swarm Creature Strategies should be part of Legacy", "All colors should be equal", "Miracles and SneakShow are playable wihtout Brainstorm" and "blue is bad for the experience players have" bears no personal taste or stupidity for you, but if I outlined several times the possible results of lost consistancy and hand-manipulation for decks like Miracles, Storm, S&T, Foodchain, etc. when it's personal taste only?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Explain me with sane reason why Miracles and SneakShow should be able to maintain and continue to perform well if their glue is gone? Why should anyone bother with clunky Miracles in their deck anymore if they have lost Brainstorm to get rid of them instead of running UW Blade which has basically no "dead" draws at all? I never heared any counterargument at all, which would be a start, but instead FoolofaTook and others just plain repeat their initial bold statements. Fantastic discussion culture #Sarcasm. Claiming that these decks stay viable but are only slightly nerfed is "flawed logic" for obvious reasons imo.
Dood, NO ONE is saying Brainstorm isn't MILES ahead in terms of cardselection. No one ever has, so don't make a point out of it. The point is, and ever was, that this fact IS NOT a ban criteria itself #StrategicDiversity #BackboneOfTheFormat #LikeMoxenInVintage
No, you still learned nothing. You're still arguing from a position of personal taste, like it or not. And your gusto is equal to any other's, it's not like you're bearer of ultimate truth.
There's no point for Zoo being viable and similarly there's no point for Miracles being viable, no "deck" is sacred. There are no decks, just legal cards. If BS is too powerful for Legacy, then it should get of the format no matter how would "Miracles" look like post-ban or whatever.
Well, maybe it shouldn't. Nobody cares.Quote:
Explain me with sane reason why Miracles and SneakShow should be able to maintain and continue to perform well if their glue is gone?
I give zero fucks if someone's pet deck will be lawful viable, chaotic average, lightly nerfed or totally dead. If the card is stifling the format, then it should be gone. There's other Magic than Brainstorm, the whole of the game's history should be a testimony of that. It's worth a reminder that until recently, the format was never reduced or polarized into Brainstorm decks vs. hatedecks. And it was much more enjoyable.Quote:
Claiming that these decks stay viable but are only slightly nerfed is "flawed logic" for obvious reasons imo.
No, you still learned nothing. You're still arguing from a position of personal taste, like it or not. And your gusto is equal to any other's, it's not like you're bearer of ultimate truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
^^ Take your own advice.
You don't care about decks being viable or dead and still whine like a little girl if viable decks without Brainstorm are limited. Schizophrenic? You also don't want to argue against my points in regards to "Miracles w/o Brainstorm is not a deck" which you attacked me first for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
also +1 to Star|Scream
Now there is a personal opinion... I have been playing Legacy since its inception, as you probably have, and I have never enjoyed the format as much as I do right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
For the record.
Maybe reevaluate your life, or relationship with the game in general?
So I think the right question to ask is: is 80% of decks running Brainstorm too much? Probably. So should Brainstorm be banned? Probably not. Why? It doesn't stifle diversity because all decks types that can and do run it. Color diversity and specific deck types don't need to exist in Legacy at an equal ratio. In fact, I don't think blue was ever 2nd tier in legacy and there is nothing wrong with that.
Anyways, to get to my point, if Brainstorm continues to put up 80%+ results then Dig through Time will/should get banned. Which would, I believe, indirectly decrease Brainstorm's dominance (and to a lesser extent ponder, g probe, preordain) in the format.
I've always been around since Legacy became a format and have to say that the only times I have enjoyed the format less was during the Flash era and the first rise of Counterbalance in 2009, before Alara.Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
I however don't think that this is Brainstorm's fault. I really don't care what happens to the card. I don't mind seeing it legal, but I also would be excited to see where we would end up if it was banned. The only cards I really care about right now are Top and Terminus, the two real oppressors of the format.
Brainstorm doesn't kill decks. Terminus does.
Would having 80% of decks running Necropotence or Mental Misstep be too much? Both of those will work just fine "all deck types that can and do run" them, so they should unbannable by the same reasoning, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by solidbass
He's way ahead of you on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
Agreed with Julian
Brainstorm just power up Terminus when you start game with Terminus on hand, or draw it when not needed. Which can be connected with any card brainstorm is just:Quote:
Brainstorm doesn't kill decks. Terminus does.
- Enabler for bad draws with replacing 3 cards with better CQ on instant
- Protection key cards vs discard CA
Cards like necropotence as example are out of context as they don't fuel various strategies if unbanned and the same is somewhat true for Misstep as well. You had a better point if you picked Black Lotus as it serves various Archetypes (if we ignore the result, that games would be pretty swingy and full of random blowouts which is undesirable)Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Necropotence is perfectly capable of fueling engine combo, A+B combo, control, even sui aggro (and it has demonstrably done so during the periods where it wrecked formats), so I don't see the point of this post. The Skull is arguably the BEST comparison card to Brainstorm, because it is/was a beloved but broken card that fueled many different archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I don't think we should look at Necro based on how it worked in Aggro during Pro Tour NY Qualifiers in '96 or as a combo engine in Pro Tour Chicago in '99 if it's clear that the Card screams for Dark/Cabal Ritual all over which pairs poorly with what we consider "control" today. It's like pointing at Yagmoths Will and the fact that is was played in control desk as well as combo decks while it would be pretty obvious in which archetype of today the card really shinesQuote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
If Necropotence was still as powerful as it was back in the late 90's it would just get incorporated into the blue shell even with the :b::b::b: requirement. Other archetypes would use it also but they wouldn't be able to find it as reliably as a list with Brainstorm and they wouldn't be able to exchange chaff from the pulls as easily. It might push Ponder out of the shell though. Spending a lot of life to get a lot of cantrips, lands, extra Necros and the odd dark ritual doesn't sound like the best way to make use of it.
If a card is powerful enough to be worth playing in a vacuum at this point it's going to be better in the blue shell than anywhere else. Think Ad Nauseum, Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach for reference. They're all powerful outside the blue shell but which lists make the best use of them in top 8's?
The feel bad card of the moment for me seems to be dig through time. Does anyone feel like this card is to good? Am I crazy? It honestly feels as back breaking/game ending as cruise when it resolves in the decks is used in. Open to criticism on my opinion of course. Pay two mana for instant speed double tutor...is bad feels.
It definitely pushes the envelope. I find myself cutting other elements out of my designs just so that I can fuel this card better. That says a lot to me. The thing is that they tempered its power by saddling it with a double color requirement; UU. It is not really much of an issue at all when building or playing the card though. GG would be an obstacle, or WW or RR or BB, but UU is a natural event in the mana development of the decks that card finds itself in. It may as well be 1U.
Yeah, I think Dig through Time will get the axe. It's too good.
Remember then I freaked out in the Spoiler thread over TC/DTT and mentioned Tombstalker as clear hint that the Delve-Mechanic is plain broken next to Storm? WotC is really run by people not playtesting cards and mechanics at allQuote:
Originally Posted by solidbass
DTT may well be stronger than treasure cruise. I've been cynically wondering whether the rarity keeps them from banning it right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by solidbass
You have every right to by cynical as there is no sane reason to ban TC (because the delve-mechanic is obviously broke and too easy to abuse) and not the other dumb, also blue Delve-Spell as well. I mean, DTT had it's breakthrough in S&T variants right before TC was banned and it was about as easily abusable as TC in Delver to create cardadvantage/-selectionQuote:
Originally Posted by rufus
DTT may be broken but like many cards in the "may be broken" category it has the "screws up your draw in the wrong opening hand" problem.
I wonder what card fixes bad DTT draws easily and thus enables it as a 3 and 4-of despite it's unwieldy cost early in the game and the near impossibility of casting 2 of them until the game has become quite mature? What card finds it easily and provides additional fuel for it in the finding process? What card could that possibly be?
Hmmm. It's a conundrum.
When you find out which card it is, let us know because I definitely want to play 4 of them in all my decks!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook