I've played 4 Deathrite with 4-5 basics, and I never had issues with mana outside of the occasional miss on mana # 4 or 5. Sad Hero or Batter in hand. I endorse DS in this archetype.
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I've played 4 Deathrite with 4-5 basics, and I never had issues with mana outside of the occasional miss on mana # 4 or 5. Sad Hero or Batter in hand. I endorse DS in this archetype.
Agreed. I've cut lands off of green sources a non zero amount of times, especially post board when I brought in disenchant for mox diamonds
As for Deathrite, I think it's just hoogland trying to be an innovator. The card is absurd. The real only reason to not play it is if you're worried about Deathrite showdowns where your opponent can cut you off of mana with their own
This is my approach to Lands in any deck at this point. Have a Rip/ETutor in the side, and most of the rest of the MU is just playing chicken with their Manabase while advancing your board in such a way that they want to respond in more ways than they are able to.
Also, Blossom counters Lands pretty well. Winning may be difficult, but they can't counter it with PFire very well (the fire replaces your health), it blocks Lage all day, and it overwhelms maze. We can talk all day about the weird boardstates, but pure and simple, it takes a lot for them to beat blossom without a decay/grip.
Sorry about being MIA the last few days!
@Ganfar: I agree. Lingering Souls is a great card and I use three copies. If DRS hoses it once, that's still 8 more tokens that can come out with 2 on the board. I also love Collective Brutality. I was curious about 1 in the main of his new deck list. I've been running 2 in the SB.
@CptHaddock: Oops, didn't even see Kambal had a 3 toughness. Is it even worth running a one of if Recruiter can't target it?
@Tescrin: Yeah I figured maybe we could open a discussion about Beaters for this deck. Tombstalker would fill the void in looking for as a beater that gets turned online early from all of our cheap discard and kill spells. However the Big Fish and Stalker do not play nicely with Bob. Right now, other than Batterskull I've been using Gideon AoZ as a big dumb beater. I just get nervous when playing against STP. I also found your BB play against PFire decks very interesting. Thanks for that!
@Zauzich: I feel like Jeff is being stubborn with DRS. It would definitely help in the Lands match up. However, RIP or even Surgical Extraction could come in and change the game. I just don't see a reason not to use DRS if the Mana allows for it. I also run 2 Fulminator Mages in the SB that I bring in against Lands and Infect. They also carry a Jitte very nicely
Has anyone had any success with Yahenni's Expertise? I feel like it might be solid against decks that run TNN. It's 1 Mana more than Toxic Deluge but you can slam down a threat for free that can only be Stifled. I haven't seen too many copies of Stifle being run either
[beater]
I was just trying to help you figure out a way to use the grave. I do think Mirran Crusader is a good choice, but he still gets stalled by TNN. One that dodges all non-red removal is Stillmoon Cavalier, and he gets passed Lage, TNN, Goyf, KotR, Gurmag, Stalker, Grisel, D&T, and more. The most he hits for without Equips is ~4, but he dodges Plow, Push, Decay, Vindi, Pulse, and Lily-Lost-Hope. He *does* make you weaker to -1/-1 effects so that should be considered. That said, that doesn't stop the TNN brigade and he's 75% of a non-blue TNN (can't block goyfs/kotrs, etc.. dies to Bolt/Forked Bolt/PFire.)
Personally I'm using Elspeth + Blossom tonight [gideon seems ok, but hear me out.] I've been having issues closing out Fair MUs, so I have those + Moorland Haunt in Esper to see if that's enough god-damned tokens to seal the deal. Elspeth is basically Equips 4 and 5, but creates dudes and beats Jace. The +3/+3 and Flying is pretty relevant when you send a SFM roundhousing through the air as a 4/5 or something. By using repeat-token-makers I don't feel threatened by Charms/ZP's because the best they can do is clear the board this turn at CDA, and then try to make up for it. Even if you give it to a flyer you have already, a 5/6 Spell Queller or a 4/4 Fae Token is an unfortunate reality for the opponent.
[sweepers]
I haven't thought of doing that yet, but seems ok. Massacre is also fine. Cast it for free against TNN decks while covering your Maverick/D&T MUs. No one runs massacre outside of storm because they want to hit Elves/Infect I think; but if you want to ruin someone's day, Massacre for 0 mana and dropping a threat seems OK. Yahenni's could be better though since it'll hit Leo. Depends if you run any X/3's that could survive it I guess.
If I'm honest, I use E-Plague. Name Merfolk and call it a day. Applicable to every deck you want -1/-1 effects, tutorable, and they have to answer it or they can't play another TNN/whatever. This makes it reliable CA, versatile as an answer to TES Gobbos, etc.. while I only (quite literally) dedicate a single card of hate for it (because I can run a tutor.) If I consistently have problems maybe I'll find a second/third effect to combine with it, like some ZPs that would fit with my token spam if it looks like it has legs. It's a brutal card that also deals with dumb shit like Thopter Foundry, Lingering Souls (since I'm running Fae/Soldiers), D&T (humans or whatever annoys me) and similar.
Worth considering. Against me instead of spirit you'd name Fae and call it a day as BB saps me a life a turn for no reason. You get the idea
This might just be me being new tot he deck and not having enough matches under my belt but when I played at my local shop I didn’t feel the need in a single game to have a heavy beater. I faced fish and 2x Bant that day using TNN. I simply went for my DnT instinct: Race it with flyers + equipment.
Was using Light and Shadow that day so a ground fight was not an option, that aside, I won every race easily except one game where my opponent had 2 TNN online, one of them carrying a Jitte. The 3 lifegain from the sword basically invalidates the single TNN on their side whereas I got damage through + recurred stuff like Kambal and Sanctum prelate on a regular basis.
If things got to much out of hand I just slammed down Humility. I was actually surprised said day how often I boarded in Humility. (might actually add a 2nd one to the SB if it keeps giving me positive results) The card feels really natural to this deck in combination with Lingering souls.
I drew the Hero of bladehold twice that day, so I can’t really commend the card to much yet, its also the reason why I keep him in the deck for now to test him more before I start drawing conclusions. I did however, had a game where I drew him and was thinking to myself that I rather would have had a Mirran crusader at that point.
You guys also seem to have bigger balls then me when advocating tombstalker stuff in a Dark confidant list. When I tested shriekmaw a couple of games it instantly backfired on me 3 out of 4 games on average, maybe I was unlucky, but I cut the card before the tournament and didn’t regret doing so. Taking 3+ damage in the face is just a bit to much for me =s.
Little sidenote: Kambal does not look like it but hes actually a beater on his own, the dude deals 6-8 damage on average in the games that I put him down, being able to recur him with the sword was also neat. He might be to slow to be considered an anti storm card, but versus more fair decks that cantrip allot hes a beast.
I'm not trying to innovate anything, just trying to apply good deck building as always. I spent a good deal of hours logging games with and without Deathrite. Adding Deathrite to this deck does not solve any problems we have. If anything it makes the occasional times we flood out happen more often because we are effectively adding a mana creature to our deck. Sure - it can drain some life, but that is kind of low upside. Unlike a lot of the fair decks in Legacy jamming Deathrite, we aren't trying to waste people off of their lands or play a pile of colors so we don't benefit from the fixing.
The real hard match ups with Deadguy are Lands and Elves. It sometimes helps against lands, but more often than not just dies to Punishing Fire, while also making our mana worse against wasteland.
In general I try to have reasons for the deck building choices I make. I top 8'd the MTGO Legacy challenge over the weekend with a BWg build splashing 2x Teeg in the board since that card is very good against Elves while also having applications against Storm and Miracles: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...5-29#decklists
I don't know about how you play the deck, but I very aggressively attack mana bases with 4 wasteland + multiple vindicates and deathrite cutting opposing deathrites off. I found it to be a fairly common game plan. And the fixing isn't the upside, it's the ramp of a black mana dork, combined with incidental grave hate, combined with the ability to close a game without attacking. I know people have played the deck without it, but it's too good for me to pass up.
If you look at the deck list I top 8'd the challenge event with you'll see I'm down to just two wastelands. The configuration I'm playing is essentially a Black-White midrange deck, no Vindicates either. Most of the fair decks in the format are playing Deathrite which makes cutting them off mana difficult and the unfair decks don't need much mana to go off, so attacking their mana is a not great plan most of the time in my experience.
Thanks for the insights JeffHoogland.
One thing you said in the testing replays that struck me is your philosophy on the deck being about lining up specific answers to what the opponent is doing and NOT about generically grinding them down. I've always been very much on the attrition plan, it's what I most enjoy, but I can see how your approach leads to choices like no DRS, main deck Gideon of the Trials, and 4 Scullers 0 Hymn. The deck is clearly flexible enough to accommodate either style and each can call for different lines even in identical lists/draws/board-states, something I'll try to keep in mind rather than auto-defaulting to grind mode.
Interesting build Jeff. I can't imagine playing without Deathrite but you are putting up numbers.
Did pretty bad last Saturday at a qualifier for Eternal Weekend. 2-3. Beat 4 Color Delver and Blue White Lantern Control (Field of Dreams in 75). Lost to Blue Black Landstill, Blue Red Delver and another deck I can't remember.
Highlight was vs Landstill. So I lose game 1 badly and I see a Spell Snare. In game 2, I land a turn 1 Bob via a Chrome Mox. It resolves. He goes land go. I go land, cast Cabal Therapy blind. It resolves. I name Spell Snare since I have a Stoneforge in hand I want to resolve. It hits a Spell Snare and I see Brainstorm in hand as well. I proceed to get Fire and Ice and win game 2. Funny thing....I only play 1 Cabal Therapy and he only plays one Spell Snare. lol. My singleton beats his singleton.
To support mega's point and counter jeff's: Yes there are a lot of DRS right now, but having a suite of Vindis, Wastelands, and your own DRS to stall their mana is a big deal. These decks are *stitched* together by DRS, and have shoddy all-duals manabases a lot of the time. The greed is palpable. Capitalizing on opponent's greedy plays is a route to free wins. In DGA they often can't even waste you back to effect, so they have more dead draws that don't actually cast their UU, GB, GBU, BB and other nonsense mix.
It's also not a plan you *have* to use. It's a route to winning that you get to use if you see your opp stumble on mana. Seeing them miss land drop 3 with a waste + vindi in hand, 2 lands and a DRS on board.. I mean.. that's a beautiful sight. Drop them to 0; have 3 mana on board with pressure, and a hand full dudes or equips or something. That may not happen every day, but I assure you it happens and when it does, you win with no effort. It creates a non-game where your opponent is top decking just to play their hand while you deal 4 a turn off a hatebear and a DRS or something.
That style of deckbuilding gives you options that are opportunistic, rather than having to conform to a linear plan. Vindis also happen to be a catch all against the menagerie of disruptive permanents.
EDIT: and it should be said that when you lack the selection of blue, versatility and raw power is good.
My greatast fear in Legacy now is the opponent goes deathrite turn 1 on the play.
I play a dualland and play a one drop.
My opponent kills my 1 drop and wasteland me. Gets to play teo thing on thier turn and I am far behind.
I always want to fetch a basic to avoid this. Dearthrite cab really make you far ahead in the game.
I will test tomorrow without Deathrite. Need to try it out
I've been running a deathrite-less version of this deck similar to Jeff's since the demise of miracles and I haven't missed DRS at all. The deck runs on a low curve, and struggles to close out games enough that I'd rather have more threats/answers in the DRS slot.
Bitterblossom to stuff Lands is a great idea , I'll have to try that out since that matchup is pretty brutal.
Bitterblossom is the real deal, especially when dropped T2. I've been vouching for it for a couple years. I pay no mind when someone opposite drops an early souls; you'll take like 4ish damage and then have board advantage. It also lets you consider things like Dread of Night. It is good against Topless, way better against D&T barring Crusader, hoses lands/depths, and is a maze of ith when you're behind. It's often must answer for fair decks and the advantage it accumulates takes over games. It's better against delver if you get to untap with it, and while a bit slow; it's a 7/8 turn clock by itself; on par with Delver/TNN/Clique.
It sucks that it pumps Goyf, but with Decays on the downswing it's even better than it was when I first started using it. Saying to your opponent "answer this or lose" is always a good thing, and Blossom is often difficult for your opponent to answer. Following blossom up with SFM->whatever is a good way to put them on the ropes. I've had blossom perform against Food Chain, Depths/Lands, D&T, DGA, Delver decks of all kinds, and even as the only card I got cast against old miracles and one of the only cards I got to cast against Moon Stompy decks.
I really think people underestimate it because it's slow; but it's also 3 mana less and causes far more pain.
Pumping goyf rarely concerns me. I play 4 plow, 1 push, 2 Gideon, 1 deluge, 2 councils judgment main (I play in a creature heavy meta) so I can hold off goyf just fine. I loved playing bitterblossom vs old miracles, but moved away from it when that phased out, not really thinking of how well it works vs lands.
BB plus Bob can be a little rough without top/library to smooth draws but it might be worth the pain. Overall it does exactly what I want cards in my list to do, create virtual card advantage. I'll have to figure out what I could cut for it though.
On the topic of Bitterblossom: Another small thing I enjoy is synergy with enightened tutor. I feel like the e-tutor sideboard package has fallen out of favor recently but I have always used one. A single "fun-of" BB in the main deck can be a somewhat consistent thing post board in the matches where it's exelent, as well as be a not embarrasing tutor target if you natual draw the hateful stuff first.