All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

When you find out which card it is, let us know because I definitely want to play 4 of them in all my decks!!!

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So does everybody else. That's the problem. 56 card format for the win.

Why is DTT broken right now? Because it's very powerful and it slides into the blue shell. How do we know that both considerations are true? Because nobody plays it outside the blue shell. Nobody plays Dig Through Time in the absence of Brainstorm.

The next question becomes at what level will DTT settle in most of the lists that play it? 2, 3 or 4? It won't go into all blue shell lists only because some lists do not want the :u::u: requirement even in the mid-game.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

DTT may be broken but like many cards in the "may be broken" category it has the "screws up your draw in the wrong opening hand" problem.

I wonder what card fixes bad DTT draws easily and thus enables it as a 3 and 4-of despite it's unwieldy cost early in the game and the near impossibility of casting 2 of them until the game has become quite mature? What card finds it easily and provides additional fuel for it in the finding process? What card could that possibly be?

Hmmm. It's a conundrum.

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I'm sure lots of people would play that format and that it's pretty popular, except for like 9 or 10 that get angry on forums.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I'm sure lots of people would play that format and that it's pretty popular, except for like 9 or 10 that get angry on forums.

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It's more than 9 or 10...but people have better thing to do that to argue here...

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

The Skull is arguably the BEST comparison card to Brainstorm, because it is/was a beloved but broken card that fueled many different archetypes.

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It's a poor comparison. Games are not determined by who is able to resolve Brainstorm first.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

So does everybody else. That's the problem. 56 card format for the win.

Why is DTT broken right now? Because it's very powerful and it slides into the blue shell. How do we know that both considerations are true? Because nobody plays it outside the blue shell. Nobody plays Dig Through Time in the absence of Brainstorm.

The next question becomes at what level will DTT settle in most of the lists that play it? 2, 3 or 4? It won't go into all blue shell lists only because some lists do not want the :u::u: requirement even in the mid-game.

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Yeah, what an wicked format in which spells with :u::u: costs are only played in decks containing Islands *eyesroll*

Nobody plays DTT in the absence of Brainstorm? Ever looked at Moderns Twin or Scapeshift? Intentional ignoring of facts, hu?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Why is DTT broken right now?

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- being brutally undercosted due to cheap feeding methods, aka fetches + cheap spells (espcially cantrips in general)
- any attempt of interacting with the DTT player results in fodder for them

Delve into CA is an utterly retarded mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Barook

- being brutally undercosted due to cheap feeding methods, aka fetches + cheap spells (espcially cantrips in general)
- any attempt of interacting with the DTT player results in fodder for them

Delve into CA is an utterly retarded mechanic.

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We haven't seen a whole lot of Tasigur's Cruelty have we? The more board advantage oriented delve cards like Empty the Pits, or Sibsig Muckdraggers haven't really made any kind of splash either.

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Originally Posted by Raystar

It's more than 9 or 10...but people have better thing to do that to argue here...

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Apparently, they don't.

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Originally Posted by rufus

We haven't seen a whole lot of Tasigur's Cruelty have we? The more board advantage oriented delve cards like Empty the Pits, or Sibsig Muckdraggers haven't really made any kind of splash either.

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Empty the Pits is pretty meh, Sibsig Muckdraggers's effect is crap and why would anyone play Tasigur's Cruelty over Hymn?

I am glad many of the knowledgeable people of this forum agree with me that dig is totally borked. I think Wizards at the time thought dig safer for legacy cause cruise decks kept dig decks in check...or perpaps ppl were still figuring out the right shell for it. But there is no doubt it my mind that in snt...miracles...blue midrange control...it's nothing short of broken. It's not just raw card advantage it's also card selection...at instant speed...and is fueled by simply playing magic.

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Originally Posted by eays

I am glad many of the knowledgeable people of this forum agree with me that dig is totally borked. I think Wizards at the time thought dig safer for legacy cause cruise decks kept dig decks in check...or perpaps ppl were still figuring out the right shell for it. But there is no doubt it my mind that in snt...miracles...blue midrange control...it's nothing short of broken. It's not just raw card advantage it's also card selection...at instant speed...and is fueled by simply playing magic.

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I about crapped my pants when I saw Dig just because of the implications for my favorite pet deck (Spiral Tide). I can confirm that Dig is utterly busted in that deck and probably every other as well. I'm still waiting for WOTC to learn their lesson regarding mechanics that make spells free and/or cost a whole lot less than they should. I mean, how many more mistakes do they need to make to avoid such obvious blunders? It only takes one mistake per mechanic - every Cascade spell besides Bloodbraid Elf was balanced (Bituminous Blast) or just straight bad (pretty much everything else). But that one card wrecked two formats, finally getting the banhammer in the second. Phyrexian mana is the same story only replace Elf with Misstep.

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Originally Posted by rufus

DTT may well be stronger than treasure cruise. I've been cynically wondering whether the rarity keeps them from banning it right away.

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Extremely unlikely. It didn't stop them from banning it in Modern alongside Treasure Cruise. Heck, it's only recently that it's started to gain steam in Legacy; its monetary value (which wasn't really that much) was basically entirely from its play in Standard at the time of the last banning announcement. And it's not even in the top 10 most played cards in Standard, so it's sure as heck not going to get banned there.

Ok so consensus is dig is busted. I would not be sad to see it gone before it becomes the format defining card and a staple which certain spikes are too attached to.

I have another card that bothers me and while I don't think it would ever be a banning candidate. ..what do ppl think of gitaxian probe? I might get hate for this but i hate this catd.Complete information is so powerful in legacy and to get it for free...it seems like a under talked about all star card with a rediculously powerful effect to have for free.

Once real Aggro becomes a thing again, you will think twice before putting Gitaxian Probe into your non-combo deck.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

I'm still waiting for WOTC to learn their lesson regarding mechanics that make spells free and/or cost a whole lot less than they should.

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They learned the lesson back in Saga block, they just "forgot" (stopped caring) it after Lorwyn.
Free/reduced spells come up a couple times between the Saga untap and Cascade, and the worst (most busted) one was Tombstalker
The masques free spells saw some play but none were busted on their own (though invigorate + infect is bad, but that is on infect).
The shoals did not do that much o their own.
Even the first set of delve cards were not that busted.

Once we get into the NWO sets they pretty much do not care anymore, and do not look at eternal at all, as they would require competent developers who care about more then just Limited play. Paying attention to the past, even the obvious mistakes requires to much effort for them now, which is bad since they have proven the old saying about not learning from the past a couple times since then. It sometimes feels like they are trying for some wet dream Maro had of a completely creature focused Casual Kitchen Table Magic with high variance causing games to rely more on luck then skill/strategy, which ends up getting Magic classified as a Gambling Game and killing organized play.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Once real Aggro becomes a thing again, you will think twice before putting Gitaxian Probe into your non-combo deck.

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It's a good point Julian. It's really good in current Meta but perhaps not future ones if something causes mid range...combo...control not to be dominant forces.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

I about crapped my pants when I saw Dig just because of the implications for my favorite pet deck (Spiral Tide). I can confirm that Dig is utterly busted in that deck and probably every other as well. I'm still waiting for WOTC to learn their lesson regarding mechanics that make spells free and/or cost a whole lot less than they should. I mean, how many more mistakes do they need to make to avoid such obvious blunders? It only takes one mistake per mechanic - every Cascade spell besides Bloodbraid Elf was balanced (Bituminous Blast) or just straight bad (pretty much everything else). But that one card wrecked two formats, finally getting the banhammer in the second. Phyrexian mana is the same story only replace Elf with Misstep.

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It's not like Gitaxian Probe is much better. The card is annoying as hell, but not really banworthy. Note how nobody plays Peek, despite being an instant.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Once real Aggro becomes a thing again, you will think twice before putting Gitaxian Probe into your non-combo deck.

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That one would require a good chunk of bans. Or printing hyper-aggro cards that don't go into blue decks - while still making Terminus unusable via bans.

So, basically, never?

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Originally Posted by Barook

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Once real Aggro becomes a thing again, you will think twice before putting Gitaxian Probe into your non-combo deck.

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That one would require a good chunk of bans. Or printing hyper-aggro cards that don't go into blue decks - while still making Terminus unusable via bans.

So, basically, never?

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Was unsure if original comment was sarcastic, unsure how to interpret. Barook's reply contains many shared sentiments...

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Once real Aggro becomes a thing again, you will think twice before putting Gitaxian Probe into your non-combo deck.

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Originally Posted by Barook

That one would require a good chunk of bans. Or printing hyper-aggro cards that don't go into blue decks - while still making Terminus unusable via bans.

So, basically, never?

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Burn, Lamb of Aggro, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

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Originally Posted by LOLWut

Burn, Lamb of Aggro, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

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Don't disagree, also do not think that was the intended example of 'aggro'. But yes, Burn is an aggro deck, sometimes blurred lines with combo (I disagree).

When one says aggro, Zoo and Affinity, maybe even Merfolk, are the flag bearers of choice and recognition.

So, even with Burn being a thing ever so sporadically often, G.Probe keeps on trucking. Thus, it is not the aggro answer that was being sought/contemplated.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

So does everybody else. That's the problem. 56 card format for the win.

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Serious question (that I expect to be ridiculed for...)

Do you enjoy playing or watching Vintage?

The nature of 'Eternal' formats is that they will typically, over time, become more and more narrow because the cards that are 'the best ???? ever" are harder and harder to supplant. It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy' as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. I'm going to be frank - this is an idiotic metric. I've been playing Limited for 2 Decades now, whether a casual, I just bought a starter-kind, or a sanctioned format-kind, and more often than not, every time I see a card that I used to love playing in Limited, it is so far from being playable in any constructed format ever that it's laughable to think that a format is somehow defined by having a huge percentage of playables.

I get it - there are people who experience emotional anguish every time someone casts Brainstorm against them. Or more often than not, when someone does it at a table in a room they aren't even in, since they don't actually play anymore because of the trauma the 1CMC Instant has caused them. But, to be blunt, the same thing happens every single time someone casts Ancestral Recall in Vintage - someone is playing a card that is head-and-shoulders better than the rest of the cards in their deck. I enjoy that people cast Preordain, not because they necessarily want to, but because it's the closest analogue to the best card in their deck that they can legally play.

Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, Blue was traditionally the color that was given the strongest effects in the game for many, many years. The fact that so many decks play with Blue cards is an intrinsic function of the games LEGACY. And the continual gnashing of teeth about it has been a Religion for many people for years now.

So, fine. Prepare your sermons, fire up the congregation, and continue to run this thread into the rut that requires special rules on this site to handle.

As for me and my house, I really just wish they'd unban Imperial Seal.

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

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I think you're mistaken.

Seal would make storm and (fast) combo decks omnipresent. That card + Probe makes lines so easy to deduce for a decent storm player.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I think you're mistaken.

Seal would make storm and (fast) combo decks omnipresent. That card + Probe makes lines so easy to deduce for a decent storm player.

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I'm not convinced. Personal Tutor is legal and isn't played in Storm or Show and Tell decks despite finding half of the combo in the latter and everything except LED in the former. I'd be open to seeing it unbanned.

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Originally Posted by M+1

Maybe reevaluate your life, or relationship with the game in general?

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Keep he personal things for PMs. However... yes, I'm in a MtG hiatus ever since Treasure Cruise was printed, as the card reinforced my opinion that the game is turning to shit. But I still got a set of Savannahs and Heaths in case something happens.

@ Lemnear + Starscream: I'm not the one who defends cards based on his/her gusto, neither do I care about specific "decks" like e.g. "Miracles" or whatever. Also, this discusion is pointless, it's not like anybodyin DCI/Wotc cares, so you may argue however you wish to (or not), and nothing changes until the field will be 95% saturated with Brainstorm decks #enjoytheUSD500blueduals #sevenpeopleweeklies #roboticgameplay

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

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It's availability would prevent it from being omnipresent in decks as well. Though...I'd have to buy another 3 seals.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

#enjoytheUSD500blueduals

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At lest you are finally being honest about what drives your vitriol and blind hate.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

But I still got a set of Savannahs and Heaths in case something happens.

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At least you have kept the good stuff. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

Serious question (that I expect to be ridiculed for...)

Do you enjoy playing or watching Vintage?

The nature of 'Eternal' formats is that they will typically, over time, become more and more narrow because the cards that are 'the best ???? ever" are harder and harder to supplant. It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy' as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. I'm going to be frank - this is an idiotic metric.

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http://media0.giphy.com/media/11uArCoB4fkRcQ/giphy.gif

"Every mechanic has one busted card."

There are literally zero busted cards for their Mechanics in Dragons of Tarkir.
Khans has Cruise as an OP card, the other four mechanics had zero. Dig is good, but not broken. It costs 2 and is bad in multiples.
Convoke in M15 had zero.
There are no playable Devotion, Heroic, Inspired, or Bestow cards.
Detain, Extort, Battalion, Populate, Cipher, Overload, Evolve, Unleash, Scavenge, and Bloodrush see zero Legacy play.

Apart from Cruise and Dig, we've seen no card with a mechanic that really breaks into Legacy since Miracles. That's nearly 3-years, and Terminus isn't exactly opressive, just really good, like Delver, or Stoneforge.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

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The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

Vintage is far from being a format for everybody. Not everybody is a fan of Workshop, Dredge and different "Shades of Blue" (where combo, control and aggro share a good chunk of the same core). That's why it's doing just "okay" on MODO, despite key Vintage cards being comparably dirt cheap online.

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

Vintage just has not been very accessible. It's not dead and it's popular now.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Terminus isn't exactly opressive, just really good

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:eyebrow:....:rolleyes:....:confused:

It's the single most opressive card in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

:eyebrow:....:rolleyes:....:confused:

It's the single most opressive card in Legacy.

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...for Elves. Not for everyone.

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

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Originally Posted by Barook

The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

Vintage is far from being a format for everybody. Not everybody is a fan of Workshop, Dredge and different "Shades of Blue" (where combo, control and aggro share a good chunk of the same core). That's why it's doing just "okay" on MODO, despite key Vintage cards being comparably dirt cheap online.

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

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The format would clearly become much more diverse without Brainstorm and Ponder.

The tragedy of the blue shell is that it has invalidated a huge number of cards that are powerful enough in a vacuum to play in Legacy but not powerful or synergistic enough to get one of the limited slots available in the blue shell. It has taken a few cards that invalidate dozens of lists and promoted them to dominance, Terminus being the prime example but Delver, TNN and even Tarmogoyf belonging in that group.

The beauty of Magic: The Gathering is that it is a configurable game in which players fight over an often chaotic board state, attempting to impose their plan for the game on the opponent. Legacy is rapidly merging into a stagnant game in which a few strategies progressively dominate and most are invalidated by the strongest cards in the few that dominate. The blue shell is what is causing that to happen. It makes the most powerful cards in Magic into sure things, reducing the need for synergy in the process since you might need a second option to carry your plan through but you will rarely need a third. Synergistic shells that rely on many cards are inherently inferior to a shell that can always find one of the best cards in the format when it needs it. You can't win consistently putting your second or third best option out against the opponents first or second. You can't win when the opponent can easily find and use a single spell that invalidates most of your strategy.

The power level of the cards has never been higher than it is right now. That's not the main problem. The ability to find the cards you need when you need them has also never been higher. That's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Finn

...for Elves. Not for everyone.

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

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+1

Scroll Rack Miracles might not be the worst but nobody has incentive to play a card like rack with BS legal.

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Originally Posted by Finn

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

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I can only agree.

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Originally Posted by Barook

The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

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Vintage suffers from the cost and accesibility of cards since nearly a decade and the rage-restrictions at the end of the secind Gush-Era hit tournament attendence with a sledgehammer as it narrowed the format more than it opened it up and turned the format into Workshop vs. Dredge vs. Anti-Workshop for years. WotC gave a fuck about the Restricted-List and format

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Originally Posted by Barook

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

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Problem is: We (pretty much) KNOW that Miracles and decks like SneakShow would vanish w/o Brainstorm/Ponder; We KNOW that Vintage took a real hit in popularity and ACTUAL tournament attendence; We do NOT KNOW if new decks emerge in Legacy if Brainstorm/Ponder were banned. I don't see anyone arguing with them "ragequitting" at all.

I just can't believe there's 562 pages in this thread that are truly anchored back to a single card. I randomly selected a generous sample size of pages and found something having to do with Brainstorm on every single one.

With that in mind:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/af/af19...73527f7073.jpg

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The format would clearly become much more diverse without Brainstorm and Ponder.

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No fucking evidence for that. Look at Vintage to see the opposite happened.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The tragedy of the blue shell is that it has invalidated a huge number of cards that are powerful enough in a vacuum to play in Legacy but not powerful or synergistic enough to get one of the limited slots available in the blue shell. It has taken a few cards that invalidate dozens of lists and promoted them to dominance, Terminus being the prime example but Delver, TNN and even Tarmogoyf belonging in that group.

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"The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!" Wow ... You don't say?! Should we go down the road of Modern and keep banning the "best cards" every 6 months?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The beauty of Magic: The Gathering is that it is a configurable game in which players fight over an often chaotic board state, attempting to impose their plan for the game on the opponent. Legacy is rapidly merging into a stagnant game in which a few strategies progressively dominate and most are invalidated by the strongest cards in the few that dominate.

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"The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!" ... Take: Two! Action!

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You can't win consistently putting your second or third best option out against the opponents first or second.

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Captain Obvious delivers: "The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!"

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The power level of the cards has never been higher than it is right now. That's not the main problem. The ability to find the cards you need when you need them has also never been higher. That's the problem.

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Congratz! You described the essence of an Eternal Format in which time brings new cards but never takes old cards away and the increasing options also increase powerlevel by itself. If that's a problem for you despite being the very nature of an Eternal Format, switch to Standard.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Problem is: We (pretty much) KNOW that Miracles and decks like SneakShow would vanish w/o Brainstorm/Ponder;

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You make it sound like that would be a bad thing, considering Terminus and S&T are two of the main oppressive forces in the format stifling innovation.