Done.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
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Done.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Why do you search for TSH here? He already has Counterbalance and Jitte in play. Because of the lack of Caverns I would have gone for a Sharpshooter (to defend against Jitte going active, and can be vial'd in on your next upkeep if you are ticking Vial up, or whenever if you leave Vial at 3), or Ringleader if what you want is value. The game doesn't hinge on them keeping ONE artifact in play. His Jitte, Shackles and Wurmcoil all present problems to you, and all of them can be addressed by Sharpshooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice
Additionally, although Tuktuk Scrapper could have been vial'd in (had it been in your list), I don't think it by itself would have turned the game around for you.
I'm not quite clear from what you are saying what happened here. Why not just keep the Relic active for when he goes off and things are returning from his graveyard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice
I think that CotV could have been a decent card here too (over Ringleaders/Incinerators), since LED makes his deck MUCH faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice
Yeah, keeping the relic active was important. And yes, RIP does much the same thing, but is almost impossible to misplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice
At the time he pulled that out of the bag, I really did not know what to do. I think I understood the game was lost and I really do not think there was anything I could have done to change that. Those are the moments I wish for STP.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
I will openly admit I have had people expalin to me before how dredge works. But their idea of explation is show me 3 cards and say this does this real fast and then move on. Of all the decks I have played against, this is one one I understand the least and can get my head around the least. So a misplay on my part? I am not surprised. I really need to know that deck better. Again that is why I am playing each week now. More you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Maybe yes, but I had no thought to do that. Will keep it in mind for next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Yea, I see that. I like RIP too as it costs the same and it is persistent. All you lose is the draw ability. Dredge does not run enhancement hate unless it sides it in does it? Pithing can't hit it either as it's not an activated ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
In short, knowing what to side out and in is still my biggest weakness, time will change that.
What to matron for and what to SB are two of the biggest decisions the deck has (along with when to mulligan, Cavern or Vial on T1, and when to switch from control to beatdown in a game).
I find it helps to think of things in terms of being good vs aggro, midrange/control and combo. The sorts of cards we want counter archetypes, not specific decks (except SnT...).
vs Creatures (Pyro)
vs Graveyards (Relic/RIP)
vs Combo (CotV/Thalia)
vs Control (Grip)
vs SnT (CitR/Angel/ORing)
And the same way you think about your SB cards being good in specific matchups, our MD cards are also good/weak in specific matchups (this is your most recent list):
1 Skirk Prospector (bad vs aggro, mirror)
4 Goblin Lackey (bad vs aggro, mirror)
4 Goblin Piledriver (bad vs creatures)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (bad vs creatures)
2 Mogg War Marshal (bad vs creatureless)
1 Stingscourger (bad vs creatureless)
3 Gempalm Incinerator (bad vs creatureless)
1 Tin Street Hooligan (bad whenever they don't have an artifact...)
4 Goblin Ringleader (bad vs fast combo)
4 AEther Vial (bad vs fast combo)
1 Krenko, Mob Boss (bad vs fast combo)
4 Goblin Matron (never take out)
4 Goblin Warchief (never take out)
1 Siege-Gang Commander (never take out)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Mountain
Thank you for that. I think I will have to start compiling all the advice and putting it into a kind if cheat sheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Also, question. With the white splash what are peoples thoughts on trading out Pyro for STP? Pyro can take care of some things, like Mystic that is unequipped or a bunch of elves. STP can stop some of the bigger things, like a critter with a bunch of Jitte tokens, Griselbrand and other big hitters.
I think it works like this, Against Elves and Mirror I would want Pyro and against most other things I want STP. What are others views on this?
I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
So it seems that we still perceive the MU differently. I'm still not convinced that those 4 "Phase 1"-cards will get you there consistently. Plus, it appears that you are breaking the MU down to the equipment/SFM while I find Snapcaster+StoP and multiple Lingering Souls just as frustrating.
What are your comments on those cards?
Admittedly I didn't test the MU with a 4-Port build, but I can imagine that Ports will be able to deal some damage to them too.
Unfortunately, the ports aren't really that useful in the matchup. I find that ports shine when we can drop a lackey or some two drops and then port stalls the opponent from getting in the game for a few turns. Stoneblade isn't disrupted much since they can use fetchlands to shelter their mana (T1 fetchland guarantees T2 Stoneforge) and Brainstorm prevents the ported mana from being wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I find that StP and Snapcaster are only really problems if you care about your goblins in play :) I play fairly conservatively, ASSUMING that they will be wrathing my board once or twice before I win. So I try to build my board and my hand at the same time. Good cards to deploy: Lackey (basically I use it as a decoy to threaten them with, since they have to respect it a little), Vial, MWM, Ringleader, Matron (for Phase 1 cards). Warchief is ok too, but it will usually trigger a wrath so I'm hesitant to tap out for them.
And while Lingering Souls is a tiny bit annoying, Sharpshooter does a number on them. You can generally annoy them unless they are threatening you by wearing equipment. I think that we just present more threats than their deck can handle, and their counter-threats are much more easily handled by our deck.
I have a question. Confusion in the Ranks was starting to look REALLY REALLY good. Then I realised Show and Tell dropping an opponent's Omniscience and the sideboarded Confusion in the Ranks creates a double trigger (CitR Triggers itself, and Omniscience entering the battleifeld would be trigger number 2). First trigger would go off without a hitch, but what about the second trigger? Does it have an invalid target since its no longer controlled by an opponent and fizzle? Or does it reswap?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
You can't give anything away once you don't control it any more, so the second exchange trigger fizzles.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost_ronin_soul
On that line of thinking, can someone play off Omniscience in response to Confusion activating or say O ring if your running that?
Yes, people can play instants in response to ORing, Angel of Despair or CitR triggers.
Is it just me, or are there a lot of rules questions in the Goblins thread? I feel rules questions could be asked elsewhere.
Confusion in the Ranks is actually a brilliant card name, because it really can be very confusing. I wouldn't recommend playing it unless you understand exactly how it works.
It is also one of the better answers to Show and Tell that Goblins has access to, but it is not without weaknesses:
- Omniscience decks can sometimes Cunning Wish in response to the ETB trigger.
- It does nothing if you have no creatures in play. This should never happen, but it does happen anyway. Some Show and Tell decks play creature sweepers in SB.
- It does nothing against Hive Mind.
- It does nothing against Dream Halls, opponent can just Show and Tell > Dream Halls > Enter the Infinite.
I mean to test Iona, Shield of Emeria next time I get the chance. It does nothing against Emrakul, but I have Stingscourger for that one.
It can block and trade with Griselbrand, or keep the lifelink in check while naming blue. Not optimal, but better than nothing.
It think it is a autowin against the monoblue Enter the Infinite decks, at least that is my evil plan. I will report here if it works out...
Amazing. I didn't think of these versions of SnT.dec (HiveMind & DreamHalls) when I was pondering about Angel of Despai vs. Confusion in the Ranks. considering those decks makes Angel strictly better than Confusion in the Ranks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
Which they could also do if you brought in O-Ring/Angel etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
It does only nothing if they bring in a creature AND you have no creature's on board AND you can't cast any creatures next turn, a whole lot of AND's imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
Fair enough but neither does any of the other options since the pacts are all instants. Well Iona could help with a 1/5 (well nobody plays the white pact right? so 1/4) chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
Edit: Ok Angel would help if they cast Show n Tell to bring in Hive Mind and don't have a Pact in hand.. but why would they cast Show n Tell then? They don't need mana for Pacts, they don't need to fear discard against us.. (at least against non-black-splash-Goblins).
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
Another plus, it's stifle-proof. O-Ring/Angel can be fought with 1 Stifle, for CitR the Show n Tell player would need 2 and be able to cast both of them.
If you have CitR there are only 2 cards (at least 2 I can think of right now) which will be a problem for you.
Hive Mind - but thats true for the other solutions aswell (execption of 25% with Iona).
Sneak Attack - same as for Hive Mind.
Most Hive Mind decks play 4 red Pacts and 4 blue Pacts, with a lesser splash (let's assume 3 total) of green/black Pacts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
If Iona names blue, 4/11 of pacts are shut down, and so is any further digging for Pacts with cantrips. Then, if you also have 5 lands or a Skirk Prospector, 8/11 of Pacts are shut down.
In theory, at least. Testing is needed.
Correct. Casting Show and Tell would be a bad play in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
That is a very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
And Dream Halls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
Actually, Sneak Attack is a problem only if they have mana to go: Sneak Attack (Confusion trigger on stack) > Emrakul (trade with Goblin) > Griselbrand (trade Goblin for Emrakul). But then, before they can swing with Emrakul, Sneak Attack is traded for Confusion, so if Goblins player has R open and a goblin in hand, he is safe. In theory...
I'm not familiar with Hive Mind so I take your points as granted that 4/11 pacts are shut down. Reaching 5 lands or having the 1off Prospector allready in play before they can go off.. well..can happen.. doesn't have to.. But yeah.. Iona > CitR vs Hive Mind (if they're not stupid) & vs Dream Halls.
So..which is more common? Hive Mind, Dream Halls or Sneak Attack, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omniscience?
I know on which I'd bet ;p.
And yeah..forgot to list Dream Halls and you're right.. you kinda could declare Sneak Attack as "solved" by CitR aswell..
so all in all I still think it's the best sb-slot for the matchup since it's the most "catch-all" answer.
So if I need to fight these decks it comes down to the question, do I want to use some sb-slots for the matchup only -> take the strongest card -> CitR.
Or do I want a more flexible, broader sideboard -> use O-Rings (if playing with a white splash anyway) as a weaker solution.
Your most common SnT MUs are Sneak Attack and Omniscience builds. Hive Mind is pretty rare because it loses to Spell Pierce, Daze, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and Hymn to Tourach. When it hits the MUs it wants it's a beast. Goblins can't beat it and shouldn't even try. We can't really disrupt it's game and we have no answer to its win condition. But that's fine. It's a rather uncommon deck that we happen to have a terrible MU against, so just don't worry about it. Or just run Thalia MD and hope to steal G1 with her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
And I still hate that SnT is making the rules nightmares of CitR a thing. I'm never going to run that card. It's too narrow and too big of a headache for yours truly.
It shouldn't be. What you need to know is this: when its hits play, you steal your opponent's permanent and trade for one of your permanent with the same cardtype. You don't have to b able explain that to your opponent (because he will most likely not believe you anyway). For that reason I bought a Portugese playset of Confusion in the Ranks (Confusao nas Fileiras) - just to get a judgecall whenever the cards hits the battlefield. The judge will be able to explain how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Bolded for truthiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I completely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
There are so many categories of matchups I want SB cover for (Graveyard decks, Combo, Tribal) that I can't afford to devote several slots to a specific card like Show and Tell or Engineered Plague or Energy Field. Oblivion Ring is a 'bad card' in the sense that in any given matchup there are much better SB alternatives available like CitR or Krosan Grip, but O-Ring has much broader matchup applications (vs a swathe of less widely played decks), so I think it gets the nod here despite the awesomeness level being much lower.
If Show and Tell suddenly becomes a much larger part of my metagame, then maybe it's worth devoting specific SB slots to the matchup. Until then, I think that using our last SB slots on more flexible cards is better. (of course, O-Ring is only an option for Thalia builds, so it's really a discussion specific to that archetype).
There is a quote on the front page:
I read this and I think, we only have 15 to 18 cards in our board. If running the 18 card board with Thalia then O ring is by far the better side card to run. If might not be the best card in a single situation but the card can defuse other heavy hitters, like Jitte, Grissel, Batter and a bunch of others. You can also use it in SnT as a great hitter. Not the best no but unless you know they are dropping one of the possible enhancements and your holding Grip I really don't see how someone would not just play off the tiggers anyhow.Quote:
This little exercise is really opening my eyes to how control-oriented sideboarding is. Where Zoo has Price of Progress and Fireblast to burn out their opponents more quickly just about every other deck's sideboard is based around making the deck more defensive.
Now while some will argue that we have hate for those cards already. I think if we are really trying to be more defensive, well there is no harm in taking all the options we have. I mean that is why we run CotV yes? Because it is one card with a wide range of defensive uses.