4 Card Blind

9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Havenwood Battleground, Anurid Scavenger, Fume Spitter

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck
OTP I can play Scavenger before you get Lodestone Golem. I can't play Fume Spitter because I can never get to my main phase with Havenwood Battleground untapped, since I have to sac it in my upkeep to keep Scavenger in play. You can't play Mayor because of the Lodestone tax. If you attack me, I block and can kill Mayor with Fume Spitter. If you try playing Mayor before Lodestone, I just kill it with Fume Spitter and we are at the same place, so we draw. OTD I can only play Fume Spitter which isn't good enough. DL

2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon
I can play Fume Spitter but it can't beat a 2/2. LL

3. Reeplcheep: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau
OTD you play all your creatures and attack me to 16. I play Battleground. On your turn you attack me to 8. On my turn I play Scavenger. On your turn you attack with everything, and I block Tireless Tribe with Scavenger and go to 1. On my turn I put Battleground into my deck and play Fume Spitter. On your turn you attack, but I block Tireless Tribe with Scavenger and Vengevine with Fume Spitter, and before damage sacrifice Fume Spitter to kill Rootwalla, which means I take no damage. At this point I can loop Fume Spitter and have stabilized, so I eventually kill all of your creatures and you. OTP it goes the same. WW

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Eye of Ugin, Crystal Vein, Thought-Knot Seer, Endless One
I can't get both of my creatures into play before your Thought-Knot, and can't beat a 4/4 with one creature. LL

5. FTW: Hickory Woodlot, Urza's Saga, Ramunap Excavator, Mayor of Avabruck
I loop Fume Spitter to kill any 1/1s you make, and my 3/3 outraces your 2/3. WW

6. PJim: Peat Bog, Crystal Vein, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Nether Spirit
Choosing sacrifice a creature with Rankle each time means I can't win the race. LL

7. dte: Emrakul, the aeons torn, Howltooth Hollow, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Peat Bog
Even though I can get cards back from my discard pile I don't think I can hold you off for long enough. LL

8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider
I can't beat you down fast enought. LL

10. maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide
Anurid Scavenger has protection from black so Grist can't kill it and its tokens can't block it, so it kills Grist. Looping Fume Spitter takes care of any 1/1s that might try to race. WW

11. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights
Heavyweights are large and have trample. LL

6W 1D 13L = 19

I was really hoping people's decks would be more like last week's entries but that really didn't pay out.

Asthereal's scores for round 4:

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck <-me
2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon LL
3. Reeplcheep: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau WL
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Eye of Ugin, Crystal Vein, Thought-Knot Seer, Endless One WL
5. FTW: Hickory Woodlot, Urza's Saga, Ramunap Excavator, Mayor of Avabruck WL
6. PJim: Peat Bog, Crystal Vein, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Nether Spirit DL
Not being able to cast Mayor when I have to go T2 Golem hurts me here. I should have remembered: don't put internal conflicts in your deck. Ever.
7. dte: Emrakul, the aeons torn, Howltooth Hollow, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Peat Bog LL
8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider WL
OTP I make Golem T2. You can't Drake T2 because of tax and have to tick up Reef, which if my math is right is too slow to not die to Golem.
If you tick up to 3 and Drake it, the flyer kills you. If you tick up to 4 to Murder Golem, you die just before you can cast it. OTD I'm too slow.
9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Havenwood Battleground, Anurid Scavenger, Fume Spitter WD
OTP you only get Spitter and Golem takes it. OTD you get both threats and we trade both threats. Or we stare.
10. maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide LL
11. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights WL
OTP EDIT I make Golem and you can't make Heavyweights. But you can cast Gian, but if you do that, you have to sac Vein for it. Afterwards I either win the race or we trade and you can't stop Mayor anymore.
OTD you make Heavyweights and I'm in trouble.

Total: 20 points

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asthereal

11. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights DL
OTP I make Golem and you can't make Heavyweights. But you can cast Giant and we stare, as I can't allow you Heavyweights, which would race Mayor.

---

Casting Giant under Golem would require sacrificing Vein, at which point you can trade profitably. 3-3, I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asthereal

8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider WL
OTP I make Golem T2. You can't Drake T2 because of tax and have to tick up Reef, which if my math is right is too slow to not die to Golem.
If you tick up to 3 and Drake it, the flyer kills you. If you tick up to 4 to Murder Golem, you die just before you can cast it. OTD I'm too slow.

---

Also, I am not sure you are too slow OTD:
T1 land / land
T2 reef1 / golem
T3 reef2 / WoP 15
T4 reef 3 / WoP 10
T5 if WoP steals golem, (s)he dies from drake before killing you or killing drake (see below *). so reef 4 / WoP 5
T6 pass / attack, murder golem (WoP 3). play mayor.
T7 WoP cannot steal mayor or dies from drake, and cannot let it survive.

*T5 WoP seals golem/WoP 7
T6 reef 1, A 15 / WoP 4
T7 Reef 2, A10 / WoP 1
T8 Reef 3, A5 / WoP dead

8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck WL
2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon LL
3. Reeplcheep: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau LL
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Eye of Ugin, Crystal Vein, Thought-Knot Seer, Endless One LL
5. FTW: Hickory Woodlot, Urza's Saga, Ramunap Excavator, Mayor of Avabruck LL
6. PJim: Peat Bog, Crystal Vein, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Nether Spirit LL
7. dte: Emrakul, the aeons torn, Howltooth Hollow, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Peat Bog LL
9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Havenwood Battleground, Anurid Scavenger, Fume Spitter WW
10. maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide WL
11. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights WW

6w = 18 points

Gilded Drake was a spectacular dud (except against silkster and RoosterCocoa, apparently).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

Also, I am not sure you are too slow OTD:
T1 land / land
T2 reef1 / golem
T3 reef2 / WoP 15
T4 reef 3 / WoP 10
T5 if WoP steals golem, (s)he dies from drake before killing you or killing drake (see below *). so reef 4 / WoP 5
T6 pass / attack, murder golem (WoP 3). play mayor.
T7 WoP cannot steal mayor or dies from drake, and cannot let it survive.

*T5 WoP seals golem/WoP 7
T6 reef 1, A 15 / WoP 4
T7 Reef 2, A10 / WoP 1
T8 Reef 3, A5 / WoP dead

---

Disagree, WoP can cast Drake on turn 4, as Reef can activate itself and Pit contributes a mana. So WoP has 15 and wins if Drake attacks, allowing time to murder Drake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJim

Disagree, WoP can cast Drake on turn 4, as Reef can activate itself and Pit contributes a mana. So WoP has 15 and wins if Drake attacks, allowing time to murder Drake.

---

Indeed, Reef is better than I though. I did not realize you did not have to tap it to use the stored mana.

On the other hand, WoP vs maxx doesn't look right to me. Attacking with Tar Pit costs 3 counters (plus a turn of counter making), Casting Rider costs 2 counters (plus a turn of counter making). Grist can always go +4 over 4 turns if attacked with Tar Pit to grow and make dudes, and can always go +1, +1, -2 to kill Rider, losing both Insects it makes, but it will have a head start with Insects at the start of the game.

So casting Rider isn't productive, attacking Grist with Pit is actively bad, and attacking maxx directly with Pit is losing the race. I think it's 6-0 to maxx.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJim

On the other hand, WoP vs maxx doesn't look right to me. Attacking with Tar Pit costs 3 counters (plus a turn of counter making), Casting Rider costs 2 counters (plus a turn of counter making). Grist can always go +4 over 4 turns if attacked with Tar Pit to grow and make dudes, and can always go +1, +1, -2 to kill Rider, losing both Insects it makes, but it will have a head start with Insects at the start of the game.

So casting Rider isn't productive, attacking Grist with Pit is actively bad, and attacking maxx directly with Pit is losing the race. I think it's 6-0 to maxx.

---

WoP can just kill grist with the adventure OTP, and die OTD?

WoP OTD:
Grist, token (1) /tar pit
2 tokens, WoP19 / 1 counter
3 tokens WoP17 / 2 counters
4 tokens WoP 14 / kill griest WoP 12
WoP 8 / 1 counter
WoP 4 / 2 counters

WoP OTP
tar pit / 1 token
1 counter / 2 token W19
2 counters / 3 tokens W17
kill grist W15 / W12
1 counter / W9
2 counters / W6
Rider --> WoP wins.

3-3?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJim

Casting Giant under Golem would require sacrificing Vein, at which point you can trade profitably. 3-3, I think.

---

Oh that's neat, I forgot about that. Editing my results.

Me. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck
On the draw, T2 Mayor gets killed, then Lodestone stares down Bonecrusher. T2 Golem instead stares down Bonecrusher. If you force the trade then play Mayor, I play Heavyweights, you pass, Mayor flips and you take 8, you get a 3/3 and take 8, you get a third 3/3, then you have to block and 3-3-2 is just enough damage to wipe your creatures.
WD Found PJim's comment.

2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon
WD

3. Reeplcheep: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau
OTP: Needles; take 4. Make 8/8, pass. Shock the 3/1, and I kill in 3 hits, which is faster.
OTD: I've taken 12 before I can make a creature, so I can only hold the fort.
WD

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Eye of Ugin, Crystal Vein, Thought-Knot Seer, Endless One
The race to big 4 mana creatures.
WL

5. FTW: Hickory Woodlot, Urza's Saga, Ramunap Excavator, Mayor of Avabruck
I would assume that I'm fast enough here, especially since the Mayor uses the old flip mechanics that's vulnerable to upkeep Shock. I haven't done the math, but FTW agrees.
WW

6. PJim: Peat Bog, Crystal Vein, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Nether Spirit
Wow, this is really cool. LL

7. dte: Emrakul, the aeons torn, Howltooth Hollow, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Peat Bog
I think this is a turn 4 kill, which is faster than my turn 5 kill.
LL

8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider
All these people completely unafraid of land hate. Well done!
LL

9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Havenwood Battleground, Anurid Scavenger, Fume Spitter
OTD: Havenwood; Needles. Scavenger; 8/8. Spitter; hit 7. Spitter; hit 6. Spitter; Scavenger must block cause taking 5 loses to Shock.
WW

10. maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide
Man, this was losing to just about everything in my gauntlet, so I ignored it. :(
LL

8W, 2D, 10L = 26 points, no longer almost a perfect 50/50.

I'm really impressed by the diversity and a bit disappointed in myself that I missed so many of the decks here. I have a few ideas that I'm really looking forward to that are not great but probably playable except they're being held down right now cause they auto-lose to a few individual cards. I'm looking forward to more bans.

Edit: I see that I have a mismatch and Alphastryk. Amazingly, the fate of Magus of the Moon depends on this 1 point mismatch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silkster

2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon
WW

Edit: I see that I have a mismatch and Alphastryk. Amazingly, the fate of Magus of the Moon depends on this 1 point mismatch.

---

Reeplcheep caught that one. Magus means Needle doesn't get counters, so while you can Stomp it OTD, you can't then follow with a creature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJim

Reeplcheep caught that one. Magus means Needle doesn't get counters, so while you can Stomp it OTD, you can't then follow with a creature.

---

Yeah, I figured this out while lying in bed last night. I'm sad for losing more points, but I'm glad for a tie for third (if it sticks) so that more stuff gets banned.

Assuming all results against maxx! are correct, these should be the standings for round 4:
1. dte: 45 - 4,5
2. PJim: 41 - 4,1
3. alphastryk: 38 - 3,8
3. GoblinSmashmaster: 38 - 3,8
5. Reeplcheep: 36 - 3,6
6. silkster: 26 - 2,6
7. maxx!: 24 - 2,4
8. FTW: 21 - 2,1
9. Asthereal (TO): 20 - 2
10. RoosterCocoa: 19 - 1,9
11. Wrath of Pie: 18 - 1,8

Two players tying for 3rd leads to extra bannings:
Crystal Vein
Elvish Spirit Guide
Emrakul, the aeons torn
Endless One
Eye of Ugin
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Howltooth Hollow
Magus of the Moon
Nether Spirit
Peat Bog
Rankle, Master of Pranks
Thought-Knot Seer
Wild Cantor

And the season standings look like this now:
1. PJim: 15,9
2. dte: 14,7
3. silkster: 13
4. RoosterCocoa: 11,9
5. FTW: 11,7
6. Wrath of Pie: 11,2
7. Asthereal (TO): 10,7
8. Reeplcheep: 9,8
9. GoblinSmashmaster: 9,4
10. alphastryk: 9,2
11. maxx!: 7,4

And in order to keep things going at this nice pace, let's lock the bannings in and get the next round going!


ROUND 5 OF SEASON 11: LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON has started.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 5, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 8th of December at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Urborg, Quicksand, Daughti Slayer, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S11R05 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding! :smile:

Sorry for the late results. Hopefully no big surprises.

maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck
OTP I have a 5 loyalty Grist with 2 tokens before you play any creatures, so I can just kill them as you play them one by one. OTD you play Woodlot, I play Grist and make a token. If you play Mayor now then I'll kill it, so you play Lodestone, then I make another token. You play Mayor and attack with Lodestone (blocked). I have to kill your Mayor now, but that leaves Grist at 3 with no tokens vs your Golem. 3-3

2. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Magus of the Moon
Magus doesn't affect me and Grist can easily kill your lone threat. 6-0

3. Reeplcheep: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau
OTP I make Grist, you go off and attack him, I block. I make another token (Grist is at 5). Next turn you can attack Grist with everything. The only way for me to keep Grist alive is to block Vengevine again, but then I can't make any progress and you finish him off shortly after. 0-6

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Eye of Ugin, Crystal Vein, Thought-Knot Seer, Endless One
OTP I make Grist and tick to 4. You can make a 2/2 Endless One, or pass the turn. If you played Endless One then I -2 to kill it. You then play TKS, and I made a token every turn to chump block until Grist's loyalty is high enough to ignore your attack, then -2 to kill TKS. Holding back for a bigger Endless One doesn't seem to help you, since Grist will be ready to kill the first creature you play either way. OTD you have a chance to attack before I'm ready. You play your 2/2, I play Grist and make a token (4 counters), you attack Grist (2 counters) and play TKS. Now I can kill TKS, but that leaves me with nothing vs your 2/2. Making a token instead doesn't really help my situation. 3-3

5. FTW: Hickory Woodlot, Urza's Saga, Ramunap Excavator, Mayor of Avabruck
FTW's math looks right. OTP I'm fast enough to kill your guys. OTD I'm not. 3-3

6. PJim: Peat Bog, Crystal Vein, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Nether Spirit
Rankle attacks Grist down to 1 or 2 on turn 2, and then I can't keep Grist alive. At best I keep a 1/1 vs Nether. 0-6

7. dte: Emrakul, the aeons torn, Howltooth Hollow, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Peat Bog
I can't stop you from making Emrakul or kill you first, and as soon as you attack I lose everything. 0-6

8. Wrath of Pie: Dreadship Reef, Creeping Tar Pit, Gilded Drake, Murderous Rider
dte worked out the math here and it looks like OTP I'm just fast enough against WoP's slow lands, but OTD I can't get there before Rider stops me. 3-3

9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Havenwood Battleground, Anurid Scavenger, Fume Spitter
You've gotta be kidding me. Pro black?? Haha. 0-6

10. maxx!: Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Grist, the Hunger Tide
This is me :]

11. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Crystal Vein, Bonecrusher Giant, Boldwyr Heavyweights
OTP I have 2 tokens and 5 loyalty before you play a creature, which gives me enough resources to -2 both of them and keep my walker. OTD the Heavyweights have trample, which complicates things. I have Grist at 4 with 1 token when you play your first threat. If you just play Heavyweights first, I have to kill it, leaving Grist at 2. You can Stomp Grist from there for the draw. If you play Giant first instead, then I can't kill it or else I won't have a token left next turn for Heavyweights. Instead I make another token, and then you cast Heavyweights and attack with Giant. I have to block, then on my turn kill Heavyweights, leaving me with a 3 loyalty Grist and no tokens vs your Bonecrusher Giant. 3-3

3+6+0+3+3+0+0+3+0+3 = 21

I've got disagreements with GoblinSmashmaster (I think I do better), and Asthereal & silkster (I think I do worse). That would knock GS out of top 3, but since the next round is open already I'm pretty sure we should keep the bans locked as they are. Maybe I'm wrong about these matchups though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxx!

1. Asthereal (TO): Hickory Woodlot, Crystal Vein, Lodestone Golem, Mayor of Avabruck
OTP I have a 5 loyalty Grist with 2 tokens before you play any creatures, so I can just kill them as you play them one by one. OTD you play Woodlot, I play Grist and make a token. If you play Mayor now then I'll kill it, so you play Lodestone, then I make another token. You play Mayor and attack with Lodestone (blocked). I have to kill your Mayor now, but that leaves Grist at 3 with no tokens vs your Golem. 3-3

---

When Lodestone is in play, Asthereal can't cast Mayor, so you can just make lots of bugs and get arbitrarily high loyalty before winning. Should stay 6-0 in your favor.

I think you're right on the other two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxx!

I've got disagreements with GoblinSmashmaster (I think I do better), and Asthereal & silkster (I think I do worse). That would knock GS out of top 3, but since the next round is open already I'm pretty sure we should keep the bans locked as they are. Maybe I'm wrong about these matchups though.

---

Indeed I locked in the bannings, so what's banned stays banned now.

Against me PJim already posted it. I can't make Mayor when I have Golem in play, which is a flaw in my deck design that costs me.
Against Gobbo I think you're right. OTP you should win. This would have influenced bannings, but it won't now. :tongue:
And against silk I also think you're right. Casting Giant first forces you down to one token which you have to use to kill Heavyweights, after which Giant kills Grist.
I'll adjust scores in the doc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asthereal

Banned list for the Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon (season 11) (version current since December 6th 2021, after round 4)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...nspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged, Unstable and future "Un"-sets
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

And these individual cards...

---

Glancing at the rules, we should probably update this a bit. There's a new online-only set of cards this week, which we agreed last season aren't legal, but this isn't clearly reflected in this ban list. Keeping them not legal is almost certainly the right call, as the online-only mode is also going to power tweak normally printed cards and keeping on top of that would be an awful mess. It's worth spelling out properly, as unlike last time, some of the new ones would be seriously good in blind.

Additionally, the next Un- set is going to have black bordered Vintage/Legacy legal cards, which should be legal here. The pedant in me can't help pointing out that the current Un-set rule actually means that basic lands have been illegal this entire time. :tongue:

I suggest a change to:

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...nspiracy%22%5d
- All cards where all printings are silver-bordered, or have an acorn watermark.
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- All cards which are legal only in online formats (such as Historic)
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

or more succinctly:

Banned are:
- All cards which are not legal in Vintage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJim

or more succinctly:

Banned are:
- All cards which are not legal in Vintage

---

Unless I miss something, it seems hard to argue with the succinct version. As a bonus, the resulting cards are easily searchable.