[Deck] Goblins

OK, So I went back to Rwg with Thalia main and went 3-0-1 at my LGS.

List

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Prospector

3 Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin-street hooligan
1 Stingscourger

3 Thalia, guardian of traben

4 Gemplam
4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
1 Krenko

1 SCG

4 Waste
4 Cavern
1 Port
1 Karakas
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Mountain
6 Fetch

SB

1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice o the Void
1 Rest in Peace
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 TSH

R1 BUG
G1 He plays a bunch of DRS and a Goyf. I build up my horde and eventually drop SGC and start blowing up his board pieces. SGC runs the game.
He's on a creature-heavy build, so I side out Thalia and bring in Grave hate.
G2 I keep a slow hand of Vial and Matrons and Ringleaders. He TSes the Vial T1. I'm sorta in it, but he eventually builds a board and I have a Ringleader put 2 Relics on the bottom of my library while only netting me a Gempalm. THen he cast an E Plague and that's all she wrote.
G3 He's beating me down with 2 Goyfs when time is called. I go into survival stalling mode to get the draw. I try to fill my board with chump blockers, but he has the removal. I topdeck Relic like a champ and wind up not losing. Yeah!
Draw

R2 TES
G1 I'm on the play and lead with Vial. He Probes me then makes me discard a Lackey. No worries though. I just rip Thalia T2 like a champ and slam her down for the W.
G2 is much like G1. I start building my board then topdeck a Thalia around T3 and win.
W

R3 RUG Delver
My opponent is new to Magic and Legacy. He's so all-over the place that I actually almost lose G1 just because his misplays are so distracting they're making me misplay (I missed a Vial trigger T3 and stuff like that). A blind-flipped Delver almost gets me, but I turned the tide. G2 I just ran the board.
W

R4 BUG
G1 I just play the long game. Krenko gives me some inevitability and I win.
G2 she has too fast of a start and I wait too long to play my Krenko.
G3 I just keep building and building and building while she stalls out. Gempalms, Matrons and Ringleaders keep pace with her Strix, Shardless Agents and Ancestral Visions. Yup.
W
3-0-1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

OK, So I went back to Rwg with Thalia main and went 3-0-1 at my LGS.

List

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Prospector

3 Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin-street hooligan
1 Stingscourger

3 Thalia, guardian of traben

4 Gemplam
4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
1 Krenko

1 SCG

4 Waste
4 Cavern
1 Port
1 Karakas
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Mountain
6 Fetch

SB

1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice o the Void
1 Rest in Peace
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 TSH
[...]
3-0-1

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Congratulations on the good finish and thank your for the tournament report + decklist.
As a sidenote: the decklist is one good example of how a THALIA-built can look like. This is exactly decklist has proven to be successful according to my analysis and your result feels like a confirmation for that.

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I'm planning on attending a tournament next weekend and I want to stick to the decklist I played some weeks ago.
It's a version of the CLASSIC 4-Ports approach with some minor tweaks to fit the local metagame.

//Mana (22)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Ports
9 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Core (22)
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
(-4 Warchief)

//Others (16)
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Explanation
I'm expecting to see mostly Storm-Combo deck and some SnT-variants. The rest would be some Threshold Decks, Esperblade, Miracle Control, Jund, BUG, and a few BW or Mono W Death&Taxes-like decks.
I wonder of I should drop the storm-hate altogether to add some Pyrokineses + X. The only thing that keeps me from doing so is the fact that my MD is already well-prepared vs. aggrodecks (Jund, D&T) and that I would probably side OUT some Tarfires for Pyrokinesis then.

Oppinions?

Has the single snow covered mountain any use or it could be another mountain ?

I believe that playing a 4 port build with only 22 lands and no skirk prospector is a bit greedy. I would probably replace a port with a mountain or add a prospector, or both.
If you're playing 4 maindeck tarfires i suppose there is no reason to add pyrokinesis to the sideboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Oppinions?

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I would certainly run 4 Gempalms before I ran 4 Tarfire. And maybe a 2/2 split on Warchief and Cheiftain would work for you. I keep thinking about running the lord split just because it gives you a little more versatility, plus it gives you a little natural resilience to E Plague.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

As a sidenote: the decklist is one good example of how a THALIA-built can look like. This is exactly decklist has proven to be successful according to my analysis and your result feels like a confirmation for that.

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Although, didn't you base your results on decklists from this thread? So just by virtue of this being jrw's list that he has already posted and had success with, you're using his previous results to confirm that his current list is good?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I would certainly run 4 Gempalms before I ran 4 Tarfire. And maybe a 2/2 split on Warchief and Cheiftain would work for you. I keep thinking about running the lord split just because it gives you a little more versatility, plus it gives you a little natural resilience to E Plague.

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Agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Oppinions?

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Much the same as what other people have said, I would run the 4th Gempalm and 1st Sharpshooter over the 3rd and 4th Tarfires. And with Warchief, well, I guess you could consider it to be a form of testing (running none of them). Warchief helps the deck to be MUCH faster. Chieftain has to stay in play to have his effect. Warchief gives you the benefit as soon as you cast another goblin. Can you keep track of when you would have preferred them to be warchiefs?

I look forward to your match writeup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Although, didn't you base your results on decklists from this thread? So just by virtue of this being jrw's list that he has already posted and had success with, you're using his previous results to confirm that his current list is good?

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Essentially, yes. Every further success of the Thalia built confirms the assumtion that this configuration is indeed a "winning list".
To clarify: I didn't mean to say that I worked out the THALIA list with assitance of my precious data, cause I didn't. It's mostly Jon here who keeps playing that 3-colored-Thalia-version over and over again, so his knowledge and fine-tunings to the list probably helped improve it.

Quote:

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And with Warchief, well, I guess you could consider it to be a form of testing (running none of them). Warchief helps the deck to be MUCH faster. Chieftain has to stay in play to have his effect. Warchief gives you the benefit as soon as you cast another goblin. Can you keep track of when you would have preferred them to be warchiefs?

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That's exactly what I was aiming at. I want to test Chieftain (and especially a 0-Warchief configuration) to see if I miss Warchief and to see if Chieftain can do the job. It's not like I didn't test that in some playtesting games ( I did and Chieftain was amazingly strong) and in theory Chieftain should be better vs aggro-stratgies (which I expect to face a lot). It might be problematic to compare the cards situation-by-stuation, because I think I would play (and plan) different depending on what card is in my hand (Warchief or Chieftain) e.g. you could pull off some combat-trick with Chieftain's pump-ability that you can't do with Warchief - and thats just one example. Also when you know that you don't have Warchief at all (i.e. the cost-reducing ability) you might approach MUs and deckbuilding differently (having 0 Warchiefs is only one of the reasons for not running Sharpshooter in MD).
Still, I will try to adress this issue in my next report.

on Gempalm #4: Thanks for the advice, but cutting Tarfires is not an option (unless I have some number of Pyrokinesis in my board). That's probably just me and my style of playing the deck, but I don't feel comfrotable with Gempalm # 4 and neither do I like Sharpshooter in the MD (partly for the same reason that they are too clunky to be an reliable removal-spell).


Thank you guys, for sharing your insights with me.

I meant to say this before but didn't. I do like how you have moved Sharpshooter and the Artifact slot into the SB, since those cards are typically dead in several matchups and can easily be cards you SB in rather than out. I feel the same way about Skirk Prospector (in that he can be a starter or on the bench), so I'm less comfortable that you have cut him completely. Aren't you making the Stoneblade matchup way worse with this configuration?

I also think that it's possible that you're oversideboarding for the storm matchup with the 4th Mindbreak Trap. The storm decks I face run Duress and Cabal Therapy, so having multiple reactive answers isn't the best. Couldn't that be something like a random Angel or Despair or Confusion in the Ranks to make SnT respect you more?

I know you do not want to cut the Tar's so this is more of a food for thought. What would happen if the Tar's where Warchiefs on top of the Chieftains?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

I meant to say this before but didn't. I do like how you have moved Sharpshooter and the Artifact slot into the SB, since those cards are typically dead in several matchups and can easily be cards you SB in rather than out. I feel the same way about Skirk Prospector (in that he can be a starter or on the bench), so I'm less comfortable that you have cut him completely. Aren't you making the Stoneblade matchup way worse with this configuration?

I also think that it's possible that you're oversideboarding for the storm matchup with the 4th Mindbreak Trap. The storm decks I face run Duress and Cabal Therapy, so having multiple reactive answers isn't the best. Couldn't that be something like a random Angel or Despair or Confusion in the Ranks to make SnT respect you more?

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Yes, the Stoneblade MU will indeed play out differently without Skirk, Sharpshooter and Tuktuk in the MD. My plan for that MU would then be to have an early Tarfire for the early SFM and then tap my opponent down with Port so that he wont get Batterskull online. The MU will definitely be worse though, because my list is less able to build up a critical mass of Goblins as soon as B-Skull or Jitte are in play. Maybe 4 Chieftain + 4 MWM can do some Magic here - I will check that out.

About storm:
First, there is a variety of Storm decks in my Meta: Spiral Tide, ANT, TES, multi-Tendrils-storm, TinFins and sometimes even Belcher. If I don't have at least 8 cards dedicated to the storm-combo MU I can just as well leave them out entirely. On top of that I want to split-up my hate to "force them" to have both - BOUNCE and DISCARD - after G1 (at least TinFins, TES and ANT). Belcher has no way of interacting with a Mindbreak Trap (other than winning via Goblin Charbelcher, without ever playing more than 2 spells a turn); TES will not always take it's time to go off protected; and Spiral Tide doesn't even have discard, which means that their counters are just as effective against MBT as they are against CotV.
As I said: I'm not completely sure if 8 cards are enough to beat storm combo (after all I don't expect to have a positive MU against the deck now) - that's why I ways considering dropping Chalice and Mindbreak Trap entirely for 4 Pyrokinesis + X. The X could then be some Angel of Despair/Confusão nas Fileiras. However, my gut feeling tells me that Pyrokinesis would be a too-much card for my current configuration.


@ Dice_Box:
What would happen is that I would not play the list because it would be too clunky and because I want to be equipped for a variety of aggro-decks (which is the reason why I'm running 8 spotremoval after all). I'm not saying that it's a bad ide in general to have that many Hastelords, but I don't see that happening for my metagame.

Cool. I understand. Played tonight, burn deck tho so nothing to report here.

Just a crazy idea, maybe we should run punishing fire/grove combo. It gives us so much game against alot of the fair decks. I think the punishing fire is bad against combo but we have sideboards for that.

I don't think that we should change our decks to improve matchups that are already favourable to us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

I don't think that we should change our decks to improve matchups that are already favourable to us.

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But is it a good deck to play if your metagame is not infested with combo?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

But is it a good deck to play if your metagame is not infested with combo?

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Head .... hurting......

Combo is goblins WORST matchup. So after careful consideration, I'd have to say that yes, goblins IS a good deck to play when it's bad matchups are present in lower numbers.

Combo is a pain. I had a single turn last night and watched Elves combo out on their second turn. You just can't race something like that. Storm, Elves, Blue and City turn two SnT. Some decks just are back for us.

I went to a tourney with my beloved Rwg list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

3 thalia
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 TSH

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
1 plateau
1 taiga
5 red fetches


//Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 grafdigger s cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 rest in peace
1 Pyrokinesis
2 krosan grip
1 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

The changes from my last turney were -1 piledriver -1 krenko +1 MWM +1 lightning crafter. The reasoning was the following: piledriver is bad except vr merfolk. MWM and Thalia are just way better 2 drops to fight aggro and control/combo respectivelly. If I want to matron up for the alpha strike I ll grab a chieftain instead. 1 piledriver can come in after board for MUs in which he actually does something. Lightning crafter is mainly a trial experiment. I like having another piece of removal + damage to face but I didn t want SGC because when u can keep vial @4 all game long is real good.

I did poorly, went 3-3
G1: BUG smallpox. Won 2-0
G2: WUR gheist. Won 2-1
G3: ANT. Lost 0-2
G4: WUR gheist. Won 2-0
G5: omnitell. Lost 0-2
G6: hive mind. Lost 0-2

I lost against all combo decks and won against the rest. Lightning crafter has been surprisingly good in holding back gheist, shooting 3/1 flyers and blinking matrons/ringleaders. I dont know whether he is as good as SGC but costing 4 mana is really good imho. I really liked the list but I wished all day long to see more thalia... I casted her only twice all day long... I may go up to 4 thalia. She is game winning and the opponent uses all his resources to remove her. I want to see one thalia every game but not being able to tutor for her makes me think that she should maybe be a 4-of. I felt very depressed being RAN OVER by every combo MU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fimo

I really liked the list but I wished all day long to see more thalia... I casted her only twice all day long... I may go up to 4 thalia. She is game winning and the opponent uses all his resources to remove her. I want to see one thalia every game but not being able to tutor for her makes me think that she should maybe be a 4-of. I felt very depressed being RAN OVER by every combo MU.

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First of all, thank you for the list, and the result-overview. I added your records to my datasheet.
Second, I think you are overestimating Thalia here. She might be game-winning vs. some STORM (mosty TES, Belcher and fast-self-mill.dec) combo decks, but you can't expect to break any other spell-dense deck only with Thalia in play. This is legacy after all and decks have a certain powerlevel and flexibility (very much the same reason why we don't auto-lose to E.Plague). Furthermore your opponents won't use "all their resources" on her, but it usually takes only 1 cantrip + 1 removal spell to get rid of her. Some decks (like SnT variants) even have the luxury of ignoring her entirely (unless you go nuts with your manadenial meanwhile).
I don't want to paint a too pessimistic picture of the card, because it's obviously a strong card per se. I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't overestimate her impact.
About combo-MUs: You can't expect to win a single game if you don't have the dedicated SB-cards to stop them. Your Maindeck basically only has Manadenial + Thalia as some sort of hate. By cutting Piledrivers entirely from the MD your list is less likely to be able to set up a fast clock. So it appears to me that your plan is buying time (with manadenial+Taxes), but giving your opponent more turns in return (by weakening your clock). This might work out if you have some decent SB card that you could topdeck meanwhile. That's especially true for the SnT MU. Storm is a differenty story. ANT is a very very strong deck - here it's the NUMBER of hatecards that matters. I know from experience that 8 hatecards + a very fast clock is the least thing you need to beat them.

I played also a little tournament last weekend with the following list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 sharpshooter

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 krenko
1 Siege-Gang-Commander

1 Tuktuk, Scrapper
2 Tarfire

Land
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls (only own 2, now 3^^)
3 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
1 plateau
1 taiga
6 red fetches


//Sideboard
3 Thalia
2 surgical extraction
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 krosan grip
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin King (Mirror/Jund)

I went 4-1:
G1: Merfolk. Won 2-1 (Pyrokenesis und Sharpshooter for the Win)
G2: UWr Countertop, Stoneforge, Punishing Fire . Lost 1-2 (CB, Into Stoneforge into StP, into Fire was to much), Thalia an double Wasteland got me Game 2, Game 3 was bad draw by me, he wins with 4/4 Angels)
G3: Helm of Awakening Combo Won 2-0 (Goblins are to fast for him, he needs to go of turn 2, got easy wins)
G4: Goblins Mirror, Won 2-0 Mistakes on his side, so easy wins)
G5: ANT Won 2-1, First game I told him how to win, second game he ist to low an life, so shooter finished him off while he trade cards for life, Game 3 fatal error by him, using Infernal with 1 Land on Hand!)

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I know, I am playing only 11 2cc, but it works.
I really like the idea of putting Thalia into the maindeck, but at the moment I have no good working mana for this plan.
Fimo's mana looks pretty good, cause I like to play thalia with as much Ports as I can, the are working great together.

@Gobolord: thanks for all your data output, it is a great help for tuning the deck for the local metagame.
Any chances of more data about the mono red list (Titze Style), using Thalia in the Sideboard? THis ist working fine for me, but in my sideboarded games, my opponents have always only one target, remove the thalia from the game, so I can go with fimo.

Next changes to my decklist will be one more Cavern maindeck and adding Confusions in the Ranks to the Sideboard (+3 -2Surgical -1Stinscourger), maybe CotV as Sideboard, but only if I ran Thalia main.
I lost twice to TinFin in the last month, so having another piece of hate against combo matchups seems nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldamion

.

@Gobolord: thanks for all your data output, it is a great help for tuning the deck for the local metagame.
Any chances of more data about the mono red list (Titze Style), using Thalia in the Sideboard? THis ist working fine for me, but in my sideboarded games, my opponents have always only one target, remove the thalia from the game, so I can go with fimo.

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Thanks for the input. WIth your list and the result-overview I have exactly 300 records.
Thanks to everybody who provided his decklist + results so far. Keep that up! I'm looking forward to collect more data for further analyses.

@Eldamion:
My analysis doesn't cover the SB for two reasons:
First: the variety of SB cards across decklist is too large to ever get sufficient amount of data.
Second: It wouldn't even make sense to take them into account because we rarely (if ever) get to know what SB card is used for which game.

So, unfortunately I can't provide any information about the success of decks with Thalia in the SB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Second, I think you are overestimating Thalia here. She might be game-winning vs. some STORM (mosty TES, Belcher and fast-self-mill.dec) combo decks, but you can't expect to break any other spell-dense deck only with Thalia in play. This is legacy after all and decks have a certain powerlevel and flexibility (very much the same reason why we don't auto-lose to E.Plague). Furthermore your opponents won't use "all their resources" on her, but it usually takes only 1 cantrip + 1 removal spell to get rid of her. Some decks (like SnT variants) even have the luxury of ignoring her entirely (unless you go nuts with your manadenial meanwhile).

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I think this is an extremelly interesting point. I actually cannot explain it myself why "control" people fear so much thalia but I can feel that as soon as she hits the table she becomes the main focus of the removal spells. If you are playing against control and you have only warchief and thalia on the board, most of the times it is thalia that gets hit by the removal. I agree that it is a misplay but somehow people cannot stand the idea of having a prolonged tax effect all game long. She messes out so much the math and mana curve of control players that they prefer to hit her instead of other goblins. She is a psychological burden that most people cannot stand. I tend to agree with you, thalia is not THAT strong on paper but when you actually play with her she feels THAT important.

Regarding combo MUs I think that having mana denial works better than trying to put up a "fast clock". Our clock will always be 1-2 turns slower than theirs on average even if you have a quite aggressive hand. Hoping to mana screw them has worked better for me than trying to be "fast". T2 piledriver, T3 attack for 10 damages is good but it is weaker than T2 thalia, T3 attack for 5 damages against most combo not only storm. In general, I think that messing up with their game plan works better than trying to be faster. And piledriver is not THAT fast. Aside from merfolk I cannot think of a single MU where I would prefer casting a T2 piledriver instead of T2 thalia or MWM. I may be exagerating but I dont have much love for pily lately....