Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You beat me to the idea. It's never a bad idea to board in Flash and Flying creatures, since most decks would just SB-out Bolts and Swords when they see Miracles. Since they cannot Blast/Spell Pierce this bad boy, you are almost guaranteed to hit your opponent's Liliana/Jace when you play it EoT. Oh, and it's an emergency blocker against a Flipped Delver, can't do that with Snapcaster.
I was referring to 12-Post specifically. Mindcensor is a bad Clique in general, and you want the static ability to be doing serious work to justify it. In my Modern list it's basically the 4th and 5th, non-legendary copies of Vendilion Clique, and only comes in against Pod, Tron, and Scapeshift. If you think that you can stop fetchlands out of midrange decks with it, you're looking at 35-41% chance that they hit 1 of their 5 or 6 compatible duals, respectively, assuming they have 50 cards in deck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Poron
This should be enough along with the third Entreat.
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Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
Just accept 12 post as an autoloss.
12-Post is very nearly a lost cause, but there are things you can do to not lose every time. In order to win, you basically have to play the game close to perfectly. That's a given. In addition, you also have to have pretty reasonable draws. The kicker is that the 12-Post deck must draw poorly or even very poorly in order for you to have a shot. There are many games that come close (for example you have them on a 2 or 3 turn clock), but they topdeck that Titan in the last turn and you just die. These games are frustrating, but that's just how the matchup is.
The best cards in the matchup hands down are Venser and Vendilion Clique. Their deck doesn't have a whole lot of threats, so using Clique to bottom one (or better yet, having Karakas) will probably leave them without gas for a reasonable while. The problem with Clique is that they run Top. Top can allow them to prepare for a potential Clique by floating their threats rather than drawing them in their draw step. If you are on a "Clique plan" in a particular game then you need to make sure that Top doesn't land or is dealt with (sometimes this even means Needling Top).
Venser is great for a variety of reasons, but works best with Karakas. Cloudpost comes into play tapped, so being able to bounce their Cloudpost every turn will leave them unable to do much. They can usually only cast one threat per turn, so Venser is also great at stalling them from the stack as well (if for example they already have too many lands in play by the time you assemble Venser + Karakas). Venser becomes especially important if they have a Cavern of Souls since Primeval Titan cannot ever be allowed to resolve. If you don't have Karakas then Venser only buys you one extra turn (which isn't really much in this matchup) but if it's all you have then be sure to make the best of it.
Force of Will is great for a ton of reasons, either forcing through your own spells or stopping them from casting Titan. Unfortunately, if they cast turn one Expedition Map, you will probably have to FoW it. If it resolves then best case scenario is that they get Cloudpost and worst case scenario is that they get Cavern of Souls and blank your FoW anyways. If Primeval Titan resolves then you are going to lose. More Counterspells and REBs are also good in the MU. It's usually correct to aggressively REB their Brainstorms since they can sometimes get stuck without enough Posts to cast their bombs. REB is additionally great against Repeal and Show and Tell.
Blood Moon and Pithing Needle are both great additional cards, but neither will win you the game on their own. Pithing Needle usually hits Eye of Ugin, but Top, EE, and Oblivion Stone are reasonable to name. Other good cards to have are Disenchant/Council's Judgement effects because sometimes you can catch their Top or Map, and you may need to get rid of a Needle or EE.
Counterbalance + Top is good, but it probably needs to hit the table early. You are usually fine tapping out in the first few turns, so it's probably worth it to establish lock as soon as you can. Counterbalance doesn't really do a lot if they've already been allowed to cast multiple one drops. If you are on a "turbo Entreat plan" then it's important that they don't resolve an EE on zero or else you'll spend a ton of wasteful turns trying to get it off the board, so Counterbalance can sometimes help there as well.
Expect them to board in a boatload of FoWs and Swan Songs, additional EEs, and additional Repeals (and sometimes Oblivion Stone although I believe that's older tech). I think most lists these days are running a Trinket Mage package. They will likely board out some of their Pithing Needles, Crop Rotations, Moment's Peace, and random utility lands.
Removal is horrible against 12-Post, their creatures are Ulamog, Emrakul, 4 Primeval Titans, 0-2 Trinket Mage, and 0-2 Oracle of Mul Daya. If anything except the Trinket Mage or the Oracle resolves then you just lose. Even Oracle alone sometimes just means that you lose. Removing the creatures doesn't stop the advantage that they've given. Humility is also horrible since it nullifies your Cliques, Vensers, and Snapcasters but does nothing to stop them from Ulamoging into the win.
If anyone has any questions about the matchup, just post them here or message me. I can say with a good bit of confidence that I've had more experience with this matchup than probably just about any other Miracles player.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Dzra
If anyone has any questions about the matchup, just post them here or message me. I can say with a good bit of confidence that I've had more experience with this matchup than probably just about any other Miracles player.
I can attest to that. :cool:
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Perhaps ridiculous, but if your Meta has many 12 Post Decks then how about Shared Fate? Exspecially with SDT. Worth to test it?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quick question about the 12-post matchup, has anyone tried Bribery? Or Extract? If so, how successful were they? (if you extract emrakul, you can still StP Ulamog and any Titans)
In another question, is anyone else excited about Dig through Time?
6UU, Instant, Delve, look at top 7 cards of library, put 2 in hand, rest on bottom. With a top out, that lets you look at your top ten cards eot for only 3 mana. That seems... really good, especially since Miracles doesn't use the GY all that much with the exception of Snapcaster if you're running him.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Dig through Time?
It takes forever to get 6 cards in the yard actually. Heck, even for old school Team America, featuring 4 Ponder, 4 BS, 4 Thoughtseize... I've been there and got Tombstalker stuck in my hand more often than not.
I'd max out on Jaces before I think about adding this card.
Then again Fact or Fiction is close to playable and at 2UU (delve 4, which is doable) DTT seems to offer a better effect... the idea of casting it at UU is very sweet indeed. At the end of the day, this will turn out as a danger of cool things kinda thing imo.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
klaus
It takes forever to get 6 cards in the yard actually. Heck, even for old school Team America, featuring 4 Ponder, 4 BS, 4 Thoughtseize... I've been there and got Tombstalker stuck in my hand more often than not.
I'd max out on Jaces before I think about adding this card.
Then again Fact or Fiction is close to playable and at 2UU (delve 4, which is doable) DTT seems to offer a better effect... the idea of casting it at UU is very sweet indeed. At the end of the day, this will turn out as a danger of cool things kinda thing imo.
That and Idk if I like having to remove card draw when I want to bring in RIP
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Ironically it is a very mild form of graveyard hate for Deathrite decks.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
13reaper666
Perhaps ridiculous, but if your Meta has many 12 Post Decks then how about Shared Fate? Exspecially with SDT. Worth to test it?
I have been to ~20 player tournaments with 3 Cloudpost decks, 2 Nic Fit decks, and multiple Deathrite Shaman + Big Spells decks enough to actually try this out. I played a second Blood Moon last time, and it was just so bad at basically every point in the game. I always wanted the one, but I had more than enough time to find it in every game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Extract doesn't really do anything and shared fate seems pretty scary since they'll be able to cast our Jaces and it's unlikely that we'll be able to cast anything of theirs in a reasonable amount of time. I've thought about Bribery before but have never actually tried it. They run Karakas and a ton of ways to find it and I'm not really interested in giving them free fatties. It's incredibly narrow for a card that might not even win the matchup it's there for.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Dzra
Extract doesn't really do anything and shared fate seems pretty scary since they'll be able to cast our Jaces and it's unlikely that we'll be able to cast anything of theirs in a reasonable amount of time. I've thought about Bribery before but have never actually tried it. They run Karakas and a ton of ways to find it and I'm not really interested in giving them free fatties. It's incredibly narrow for a card that might not even win the matchup it's there for.
With a top in play they don't get to do anything you don't want them to. They never get Karakas, they never get both Jace, and mana to cast it. They lose the game. You draw infinite lands and an Eldrazi. You should straight up win every game you land it with a top in play. Shared Fate + Top seems just like the nuttiest combo. I get that it's a 6-mana combo that doesn't win you the game, or guarantee a lock half of the time, but against a deck with random colourless bombs, it should do enough. Top, Counterbalance, Whatever, Jace, Shared Fate would be an insane line of plays. You might actually win that game. Jace's 0 becomes Ancestral Recall. There is a card that actually makes Jace better. I didn't think that was possible.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Tested Dig through Time as a singleton against RUG Delver today. Was really impressive. Basically won me several games by casting it EoT. Looking through 7 cards is insane. Anti-synergy with snapcaster never came up (I play 3), as the graveyard gets filled with non-flashbackable cards 'quickly' enough anyway. Not a card that you cast in the early turns as you don't need to win quickly (as you would for instance when you play Delver decks), but you CAN cast it early if you want to, which is the great part. Instant speed really pushes it. Curious to test it against other decks, where I'm certain it will shine even more in the grindy matchups. Definitely don't dismiss this card too early.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Nihilis
Tested Dig through Time as a singleton against RUG Delver today. Was really impressive. Basically won me several games by casting it EoT. Looking through 7 cards is insane. Anti-synergy with snapcaster never came up (I play 3), as the graveyard gets filled with non-flashbackable cards 'quickly' enough anyway. Not a card that you cast in the early turns as you don't need to win quickly (as you would for instance when you play Delver decks), but you CAN cast it early if you want to, which is the great part. Instant speed really pushes it. Curious to test it against other decks, where I'm certain it will shine even more in the grindy matchups. Definitely don't dismiss this card too early.
It's just a bad Predict that weakens the CB curve even further. Card advantage is the least of our problems and adding a VERY conditional draw engine that only works in the lategame seems wrong. I would play FoF over this if I felt I needed more lategame.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Mackan
It's just a bad Predict that weakens the CB curve even further. Card advantage is the least of our problems and adding a VERY conditional draw engine that only works in the lategame seems wrong. I would play FoF over this if I felt I needed more lategame.
"Fact or Ficiton" get 1-4 of 5 cards for 4 mana; if you cast "Dig through time" for 4 mana you only need to remove 4 cards from the yard and get 2 out of 7.
As a single card it seems better than Fact or Fiction; its only weakness is in decks that might play 2-3 copies of FoF where there would not be enough graveyard to play the other copies.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'd rather play Sphinx's Revelation. And it's not close.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
I'd rather play Sphinx's Revelation. And it's not close.
Is Sphinx's Revelation good in this deck? Seems like if you cast it "late," you're probably drawing ~3 cards and gaining ~3 life?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
JimmyC27
Is Sphinx's Revelation good in this deck? Seems like if you cast it "late," you're probably drawing ~3 cards and gaining ~3 life?
No, I think that was the point.
If you're casting a revelation that nets you anything, you may as well be casting an entreat that wins the game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Originally Posted by
Teknique
No, I think that was the point.
If you're casting a revelation that nets you anything, you may as well be casting an entreat that wins the game.
If you're casting anything that expensive, it may as well be Jace or Entreat. People are always exploring new neat cards, and they still don't even run a playset of Jace.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
With a top in play they don't get to do anything you don't want them to.
I suppose that's true, but they run Top also. So if I have a Top + Shared Fate then I should win. If they have a Top out then I should lose. If neither of us have Tops then who knows, and if both of us have Tops then... it's a draw?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I suppose that's true, but they run Top also. So if I have a Top +
Shared Fate then I should win. If they have a Top out then I should lose. If neither of us have Tops then who knows, and if both of us have Tops then... it's a draw?
It's entirely draw dependant if you don't have a single player with a Top. If you both have it, no-one draws anything good until the top of someone's deck is just 3 good cards. They probably win because we play 9-10 Fetchlands, and they play very few. (Like, zero?) We'd need to find Green, and Crop Rotation to reset our Top. There's also more generally good Spells for them to take. They get a single Blue, and suddenly you cannot give them Brainstorms or Ponders. If they ever get double Blue Jace wins them the game. You MUST have Top + Shared Fate, and them on no Top for it to actually work.
I would not take it to a GP, but I will be taking it to the "Leeds monthly win £100 store credit at regular REL because we don't understand what REL is for" tournament.
Also; I did actually play Rev in here for the mirror match. It's not easy to counter out of the board, as it does get you around Counterbalance. I stopped playing it after never facing the mirror, but the point was mostly that 5-mana Draw 2 Cards is better than a situational Draw 2, because I can pour mana into it later to pull me out of Burn range, and just draw so many cards that I can bury people. It may actually have ended up becoming a Blue-Sun's Zenith at some point too, just so that it could be cast a few times throughout the game as a card advantage engine. You do the first one to draw 2, then later you draw 4, then later you just show it them and they concede.
But yeah, it's not good. Neither's this new card. I'd rather play the Draw 3 if we were going to be serious about this. That card is a powerful effect. We probably can't fill the Graveyard fast enough. We'd need to add more Cantrips, I think. Like, up to 10.
