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I was actually thinking of more of BUG than Abzan lists, but yeah. Nath has the advantage over Resto of bring relevant on his own (not requiring a target) and bringing more board presence, particularly since his tokens interact well with Cabal Therapy. Also pretty nice against Liliana and anything else our opponent discards to (not that it's that common in Legacy, although I guess it's nice if our opponent cracks LEDs and doesn't just kill us imediately).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Entomber Exarch is a good card in Pod lists that you can easily underestimate. Most people won't try it because it looks like a Limited card, but a tutorable Duress can be extremely important, and there aren't any other good options. Stats often won't matter, you just want the Burning Wish / Jace / GSZ / Fireblast to be gone. The return from graveyard is a nice alternate mode to help grinding when you draw it. Same with Sin Collector, only a better Duress for less Mana but no value option. I wouldn't go into Restoration Angel territory with Pod, it sounds nice but is too vulnerable and slow. Nath is an awful card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Glad you see it the same way with Archmage, clear MD slot, won't mind a second copy in SB. I agree on Meren, she can be cut if you ask me. I wonder how Titania performed for you, seems like an odd choice in theory but I have no experience with her.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Undertaker
Phantasmal Image is a fixed card for me in BUG Pod. It has double synergy with Pod. It a) turns your 1-drops into the biggest thing on board with Pod and b) copies the mana cost of big things, so if you Pod it away you gain a lot of Mana. And if you have it hand it "steals" the mana cost of the biggest thing. This is especially powerful now with Eldrazi in the meta. Copy Reality Smasher, hit for 5 and then search a Grave Titan.
T3/4 discard on a 2/1 stick seems rather underwhelming when your opponent drops a T1/2 beater. Or plays Elves!. Or TES/ANT. Or a large number of different things. Especially since the opportunity cost was to give up a bunch of cheap interaction to facilitate said stick.
So what 3/4-drop do you suggest that is good against T1 beater, Elves and TES/ANT and a large number of different things?
Drop Pod so you have room for a proper removal suite or run 2 Pods in the standard list so you have more ways to churn out Rhino/Sigarda whilst sticking to the normal gameplan. That way you at least don't fuck up the usual good and 50/50 MUs whilst improving the decks' consistency. One of the main problems this deck has is that it's slow and has a hard time interacting with certain cards. Slowing the deck down even further and skipping on the cheap interaction only makes those issues worse. Heck, we might be better off turning into Explorers Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
But this probably falls on deaf ears. Pods must durdle.
Actually the "normal game plan" of Nic Fit has nothing to do with beatdown. The beatdown part is a recent addition and to be honest the rate of Top8s for Rhino lists is quite low compared to the attention the deck had for such a long time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think Nic Fit is way better positioned if it simply takes the control role instead of being a weird midrange-beatdown-control hybrid. The slowness is not a problem, it is a part of a control deck. Sure sometimes it would be nice to have a faster clock but if you sacrifice CA for getting bigger vanilla beaters you might not get to attack at all. It doesn't really matter if the life totals are 7 to 19 if you Deeded the board and swing with Sigarda or a Titan... The Pod deck that Top8ed MKM and 5-0ed MTGO does not care in the slightest about the life total of the opponent, it cares about surviving and grinding out card advantage with 2 for 1s and I think this is what Nic Fit does best.
Yeah great point, for my argument, I agree. Deck plays a 3 Mana 1/1 value creature and a couple of Persist minions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
You might find some clues here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
But I think we should just "quit" winning G1 against combo decks with Junk Pod Fit and just attack them with a proper sideboard.
This. We are the fair deck crusher. We have 15 slots in the sb to shore up the problem matchups. Focus on beating what we are geared to beat, configure the sb according to where we want help, save the cheerleader, save the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
And Moriz's sideboard sounds interesting (or how to make combo/control's life miserable) to say the least:
3 Duress
2 Hymn of Tourach
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Painful Quandary
1 Choke
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
I am not a fan of the 1 ofs. Some of those are fine but I like surgical and multiple ethersworn too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Alright, book time. Prepare yourselves.
For reference, the list I played:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
sb::
1 Notion Thief
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
I already briefly touched on the matchups last night, so I'll just reiterate that I ended a disappointing 3-5 total record across the two events, with losses to Sneak/Show, Elves, Grixis Delver, TES, and Dark Depths Maverick.
Let's look at that a little closer.
First order of business: Merit Lage.
The above list has absolutely no way of dealing with a resolved Merit Lage. It can potentially stop one from happening with Pithing Needle or Surgical (Loam past a DD / Stage vs Lands), but if you don't hit either of those cards and they make a 20/20, you gonna die. For reference, the only effective way that a BUG core has to deal with this problem is Venser, Shaper Savant. My out (which I did look for / play to) was to establish Recurring Nightmare with Baleful Strix, but this would've only lasted until he found Scavenging Ooze, so it was a moot point anyway. I didn't have a way to win the game once Merit Lage happened.
This is a serious problem.
Sneak/Show was a combination of a nut g1 hand from them and a misplay in g3 by me, so I don't think that I'm too concerned about that. I maintain that Slaughter Games isn't good enough in the current metagame -- the types of combo decks aren't correct for it, and we can't afford to dedicate 3 slots to a mono-Miracles card, no matter how much we want to beat Miracles.
Elves....what the fuck can you even do about this. For reference, from my earlier post: Elves won the die roll and killed me on turn 3 after going Cradle, tap for 4, play Cradle, tap for 4, Craterhoof, kill you. I'd Therapy'd away a Visionary blind on t1, and then called Natural Order on the flashback only to see the Hoof in hand. Game two I have Thoughtseize into Therapy, and he turn 2 NO's for Progenitus anyway. I see no appreciable way for Nic Fit to deal with this. I'm frankly not sure how other decks deal with this nonsense. I guess Force of Will? Deluge is a thought and is something I will be coming back to later -- but that's more of a general thing and isn't generally going to be amazing vs Elves, I don't think -- they're too fast.
Grixis Delver is one that I want to spend a little time on. Game one he used every last card in his hand to kill me, and it was just exactly enough. I sequenced so that my last play was a Pernicious Deed vs his two card hand, which was of course Force/blue. I had another Deed for the followup turn, but was staring at lethal. This was through Wastelands, Stifles, Bolts on Deathrite, and etc. It happens sometimes. Game two he had a Pithing Needle for my Deed. More on this. This was another match where I would've been okay if I'd won the die roll -- I was one turn behind, yet again. It's possible that there's something relevant there -- more on this later as well.
TES is TES. Game one I punished him severely for Infernal Tutoring for a Dark Ritual when he knew I had a Therapy in hand off a GitProbe. I played the Therapy the next turn via an active Deathrite (didn't have black without it) and ripped 3 from his hand. He never recovered and Deathrite drains + Vet beats killed him swiftly. Game two he goes off via goblins, I'm one card off from hitting Deed via Brainstorm (all 3 Deeds and Pulse were still in my deck for this line). Game three I mull to 5, and get a Flusterstorm+Deed hand. Not great, but it's 5. I Flusterstorm a Gitaxian Probe to protect my hand and hide information, but he blind Therapies my Deed anyway. It ends up not mattering - I flood out and he cantrips into a clean Ad Naus kill for Tendrils.
I somewhat missed the more physical interaction here. Flusterstorm is all good and all, but some kind of hatebear or stax effect is a better compliment to discard than counterspells are...or at least than soft counterspells are. The way this match played out makes me doubt the power of Abeyance, as well -- Storm is always going to have the information that we have it, unless we happen to get one floating with Top, but that seems pretty unlikely given the pace of the matchup.
So, let me go over some individual cards before moving on to the bigger meta-discussion:
-) Gitrog. This thing impressed the hell out of me. Every time it came down it either stabilized the game or put me very far ahead. The land saccing was never an issue, although I was aware of it being a little dangerous at times -- suggesting that Courser and Oracle of Mul Daya have some extra value here. It's also worth noting that Gitrog makes Brainstorm+fetch a little awkward -- you need to keep in mind that you're executing a draw 3, put one 1 back, essentially. I have no idea where or if we can find room for him in Rhino builds, due to the raw power of the various white 5-drops, but he's strong enough to be considered for sure. He's a shoe-in for all non-white builds, I believe.
-) Edric. Only happened once, but he drew me about 7 cards in the game where he happened. The other games I was too busy trying to stabilize to be able to leverage him -- I believe this is more of a meta problem than a problem with the slot itself.
-) Tracker continues to impress. Early game he's a lightning rod for removal, or else he'll snowball the game horribly out of control. Midgame he's at his strongest, I think -- lategame he can still grant you an advantage, but he's not going to blow the game open when you're topdecking the way he will in the midgame -- which is fine.
-) Deadeye was awful, partially due to the metagame and partially due to the lack of Fierce Empath. I think that Consecrated Sphinx is still just so unbelievably strong that it's worth keeping him, but Deadeye is likely out, probably in favor of a ramp creature to combo with Gitrog or perhaps a Sorin.
-) I never missed Meren. I still feel awful about this -- and I in fact had a couple people ask me throughout the day if Meren was in my deck. I replied that she was not, and listed my reasons, and everyone immediately understood -- which kind of reassures me a bit that I'm right for cutting her. I reiterate that I adore the card -- the games where she gets to do her thing, she's a backbreakingly strong powerhouse. But at the end of the day, the meta that we live in right now is just terrible for her chances of getting to be relevant. She'll happily live in my box for now, and await the day where she can come forth and terrorize the format.
-) Sylvan Safekeeper is awful, at least in the States -- might be fine in EU, I dunno. Over here, though, all of the Miracles lists are running at least 1 - and sometimes 2 - copies of Council's Judgment. This renders Safekeeper a little waste of a slot. Teeg is likely still fine, especially if you're boarding in Surgicals to try to mess with their removal spells and Snapcasters anyway. Trying to assemble the Safekeeper/Teeg combo isn't worth it in NA, though.
-) Thoughtseize is incorrect to board in vs Delver. I was leaning that way in testing, but I wanted to try it vs randoms. I boarded both Seizes in vs RUG, 4c, and Grixis Delver, and every single match I decided it was wrong to have done so. Surgical, on the other hand, was 100% correct to board in. I'm not sure who first suggested that in the thread, but they were spot-on. It's an extra way of getting information about what you need to play around, while also messing with their graveyard synergies (goyf, goose, deathrite, angler), while also potentially removing their reach: vs RUG Delver I got to Surgical his Bolts, which made me feel a lot safer when he eventually dropped me to 3 life. I knew from looking at his deck that he had no other reach, so I was able to dodge him cantripping into burn for the kill. Definitely on board the Surgicals vs Delver train. Choo choo.
-) As noted in the TES match, Flusterstorm was very underwhelming and should likely be something else -- even something like Thorn of Amethyst might not be awful. I want something hatebear-y or stax-y -- some kind of permanent-based interaction. I think that being proactive with discard lends better to lockdown effects, and the degrees to which these combo decks are built to beat reactive control decks at the moment is not something that we're going to be able to stand in the way of with a couple of measly Flusterstorms or Abeyances.
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Okay, let's move on to the more meta-based discussion. Let's talk Nic Fit and Legacy as a whole.
There are 4 variations that I'm going to focus on. I don't play Pod or Punishing Fire, so I can't speak for them. I'm also including Ultimate Fit under the umbrella of BUG, although I acknowledge that Ultimate was an attempt at fixing some of the issues that I'm going to list with BUG. I would encourage you to read the expanded description blobs for each version even if you have no interest in that version, because I'm going to tie them together at the end and reference back to them. The hand that cuts my brother also cuts me.
Scapewish:
+Proactive gameplan
+Lots of sweepers
+Oops I win factor
+can be flexible with Zenith and Wish as dual toolboxes
-No backup plan anymore
-Linear plan can be disrupted easily (Surgical on Taiga, etc)
-Weak to Blood Moon (or weaker than most of us, anyway)
-Achilles Heel to graveyard combo in particular, with Storm also worse than average.
-Inconsistent, especially in the mana base.
Scape isn't what it used to be, but it's still a strong contender. It has two very major advantages in the current metagame / GP metagame: it's proactive as shit, and it has a lot of backup sweepers. Having a proactive gameplan is very important in the current legacy environment, I believe. Trying to effectively control this format is a lost cause, because every deck in the format right now is a combo deck, and we're bad at those. Miracles has a twindrive combo engine between Mentor+Top and Nahiri+Emrakul now. Eldrazi combines fast mana with punchy dudes to swing for large numbers on early turns. Lands has Merit Lage. Maverick has Merit Lage. Delver has always been a combo deck in disguise, but it's even worse now with Young Pyro and Gurmag. Painter exists. Elves exists. Storm. And so. The fairest deck besides us in the format is Shardless BUG, and that deck isn't even that fair: it's built around casting free spells and Hymning people out of the game.
This simply isn't a format we can afford to sit there and durdle in. We need to be the ones declaring the tempo of the game, aggressively moving it towards its conclusion. Scapewish is better at this than probably any other Nic Fit variant, due to its namesake synergistic kill package.
Furthermore, due to the prevalence of Miracles, Lands, Painter, and DnT, Pithing Needle has gained a /tremendous/ amount of ground. I saw more Pithing Needles in those two side events than I've probably seen in the last year combined. Needle is really good at stopping Pernicious Deed -- and yeah, we can get rid of it. We have Decays, Grips, Qasalis and Rec Sages, etc. However, the question "can we get rid of it" is very different from the question "can we get rid of it before they kill us?" Do we want to be using an Abrupt Decay on their Pithing Needle rather than on their t1 Delver or Deathrite? I very much doubt it. The fallout of this is that Pernicious Deed is very, very poorly positioned in sideboard games moving forward. Until something is done about Miracles and/or Lands on a meta-wide scale, we need to accept that Pernicious Deed isn't going to carry us the way we're used to it doing. This feeds naturally into another of Scapewish's strengths: the wish package gives it a tremendous number of additional backup sweepers that can cover for Deed when Needle happens.
Scapewish's problems, however, are serious. It can no longer provide a strong beatdown plan, which is one reason among several that I ended up selling out of the deck. When conceptualized, the deck was able to provide a very strong beatdown with Huntmasters and Thragtusks, and pressure the opponent. While the opponent was dealing with this beatdown, you could then ramp up in the background quietly and slam a Scapeshift that they were ill equipped to deal with, after having spent all of their resources on the creatures. Sometimes it worked the other way around, and they spent so much time attacking the combo that your creatures ended the game. Regardless, this core, fundamental dichotomy within Scapewish is no longer functioning due to the power creep of legacy's creatures elsewhere. This forces Scapewish to be a much more linear deck than it wants to be, which positions it square in the firing range for all of the disruptive elements inherent within the format, like Wasteland+Surgical vs Taiga out of Delver, Counterbalance+BEB/Snapcaster from Miracles (plus a horrible inability to pressure Nahiri into not Emrakuling you), etc.
This is in addition to Scapewish's personal achilles heels, in the form of graveyard combo decks, consistency problems, and random Blood Moons. In a perfect world, Blood Moon never matters. We don't live in a perfect world, and Blood Moon frequently hits at bad times. Scape's mana base has always been questionable as fuck due to the constraints of having to fit Valakut+mountains, basics, and functional duals/fetches into the same space. Reanimator and Dredge are both basically never-win, unfixable matchups due to the space taken up by the wishboard.
Rhinos:
+Path to Exile
+Rhinos are pack animals and are kind of a proactive plan
+Best Painful Truths version by a lot
-Miracles
Path to Exile is the best removal spell in Legacy right now. I say this mostly on the back of Merit Lage: giving your opponent +20 life is untenable if you wish to win the game at any point. Being essentially Daze proof (if we're not stupid with it) is a strong point, as well (although I acknowledge that there are other Daze-proof removal spells, certainly).
While Rhino Nic Fit as a deck isn't exactly the most proactive deck in the room, it's still better than some versions in that department. Chaining Rhinos sometimes happens and will usually win the game when that happens.
Rhino builds are the best Painful Truths decks in the format, largely due to the strength of their removal suite. I wasn't originally sold on Truths because I was opting out of spot removal -- with spot removal in the deck, though, Truths becomes a shining star.
The only drawback to the Rhino builds is the atrocious Miracles matchup. If this was a lesser matchup, like Elves or Sneak or whatever, then sure, fine, no problem. But being a dog in the 3rd most populous matchup in the format (behind Delver and Eldrazi) is rather unacceptable. There are many facets to this problem, not the least of which is that we plan to sideboard out 11-12 cards for the Miracles matchup. This results in us warping our sideboards very heavily -- we need to run enough cards in the board to bring in vs Miracles, but we still need cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. This means we run things like Abeyance because they flex between Miracles and Storm, but they're kind of lackluster vs both of the decks that we bring them in vs. I understand Abeyance can be good, has uses, etc -- but compare Abeyance to Ethersworn Canonist vs Storm. One of them annoys them and makes them go around it, the other, for the same mana cost, royally screws their game plan: they have to take two turns to Wish for and cast an answer, and hope that we don't have the ability to discard the sweeper they Wished for. The problem, of course, is that Canonist doesn't come in vs Miracles, so we can't run it.
This is a very serious problem, to the point of being debilitating to the variant. It's also Rhino's ONLY problem, in my opinion. The deck is very well rounded and can fight just about anything else in the format effectively. Path, DRS, and Surgical coupled with discard gives the deck a fighting chance vs Reanimator, even, which is traditionally a terrible matchup. I do worry slightly about Rhinos Eldrazi matchup, but that can be fixed easily enough -- we just need to decide to fix it.
Colorless / Diamond
+Thought-Knot Seer
+Ugin, Kozilek 2.0, Ulamog 2.0 top-end
+Warping Wail hits the entire format, basically
-Mana instability
-Shardless matchup is awful
-Lands matchup is awful (Merit Lage in particular)
The colorless versions still haven't really come into their own, although I remain dedicated to making them work because there is just so many right things going for them. Thought-Knot Seer is incredibly powerful, and gives Nic Fit an edge in combo matchups in g1 scenarios that it can't really get with any other version, while still being insane vs everything from Shardless to Delver. Ugin is unbeatable for many decks, and is a Pernicious Deed that hits planeswalkers, which is something we've always wanted. Kozilek is a 12/12 draw 7 counterengine, while Ulamog is a double removal spell that triggers on cast, not resolution, and ends the game very swiftly regards of blockers.
The problems here include a shared mana instability problem with Scapewish -- instead of trying to fit in functional mana + basics + Valakut, we have to worry about functional mana + basics + cloudposts and utility lands for Primeval. The version also sports poor Shardless and Lands matchups, and shares BUG's issues with Merit Lage. You can Crop Rotation for a Stage of your own to make your own Merit Lage, but they'll always win that war -- they have much easier access to Karakas, and can protect theirs while destroying ours. Nic Fit sometimes struggles in general with certain Shardless hands, even if the matchup is overall fine. Those hands usually involve Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil, and both of those problems are exacerbated by playing the Colorless build. We try to punish this by sideboarding Obstinate Baloths (which also help in the questionable burn matchup), but that is just RNG based: we need to happen to have one in our hand by turn 2-turn 3 for it to matter.
BUG (including ultimate)
+Strongest sideboard options, including Glen Elendra Archmage and Vendilion Clique
+Brainstorm and Consecrated Sphinx give BUG a lot of consistency and card advantage
+Baleful Strix is crucial to the Eldrazi matchup
+Strongest fair.dec matchup
-Struggles with burn, as has every BUG deck since the beginning of time
-Problems with lands, especially Merit Lage
-Power level is debatable
-Not very proactive
BUG's sideboard options are very strong right now, possibly the best for any version, especially with regards to the Miracles matchup. The BUG versions sport the highest internal level of consistency across all Nic Fits due to the inclusion of Brainstorm, and possess the most powerful 6-drop in NicFitdom in Consecrated Sphinx. Coupled with the core card advantage options that we already run in other decks, BUG has the highest amount of card flow by far, which makes the deck a lot more consistent across matches.
BUG/Ultimate have a very favorable matchup vs Eldrazi due to the presence of Baleful Strix, which is a card they very much struggle with. Between Veteran and Strix, they need something like 4 more Warping Wails than they have. Taxing their already stressed removal is pretty great. Additionally, due to BUG's card quality and flow, it possesses an incredibly strong fair.dec matchup. In testing I've felt very favored vs Miracles with Ultimate, and Shardless is a joke, as are all of the "lesser fair decks" like Jund and other out of flavor fan favorites.
On the flip side, BUG struggles with Burn to a degree not found in other Nic Fits. Ultimate still has this problem, even with the addition of Siege Rhino. Lands is atrocious -- we don't have anything close to resembling enough pressure for that matchup, and they can freely make a 20/20 without us being able to answer it beyond possibly blocking for a turn or two. Setting up Nightmare or Meren with Strix might stall for a couple turns, but they'll eventually Bojuka Bog us and turn that option off.
BUG has always struggled with power and actually being able to end games. Ultimate was an attempt at fixing that problem, and I think that it worked fairly well. Consecrated Monster is another attempt at fixing the problem without splashing a 4th color, and the jury is still out as to whether it was successful. In general, though, BUG struggles with ending games and being proactive about doing so -- this is the tradeoff for being more consistent and having better card draw options. You spend time drawing cards while the opponent is developing a board state, and then bad things happen.
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Summary:
Rhino is closest to the best version that we have, but its Miracles problem is downright debilitating and gives me a lot of pause when considering what version I want to play at Columbus.
Scape is probably the best Grand Prix version if you're unwilling to gamble the first two-three rounds and/or don't have byes. Its strong, proactive gameplan can push through a lot of random nonsense, and its sweeper package will help prevent losses to said random nonsense.
Colorless is basically a "Potential" meme. It has all of the right possibilities, but working on combining them into a functional whole has been very irritating. A functional Colorless list is going to be near the top of the Nic Fit hierarchy, if not at the top: the problem is working out the list.
BUG is arguably more of a metagame predator than any of the other versions, which are already metagame predators. It's much more consistent than other versions, but if it is consistently mediocre, that's not really going to help us.
A couple brief words about Ultimate Fit specifically: Some of my struggles this weekend were to variance (as noted, die rolls are the bane of my existence, as are mulligans). Some were to the expected metagame, which was much more random noise and garbage combo decks than I expected, and I didn't have any extra stuff with me to swap around my list to compensate (which is admittedly my fault for not bringing any of those pieces). Regardless of the reasons behind the struggle, the list that I took to these side events was a GP contender. It was something that I was strongly considering playing at Columbus. Was is perhaps the key word. I still think the deck is a reasonable choice and could be the correct one -- but I want to go back to the drawing board over the next week or two and see if I can come up with something better (a functional Colorless list or a Rhino list without the Miracles problem are at the top of my choices, with the Reanimator version just under those, actually). This is mostly because I don't know that the problems I had with Ultimate are really fixable per se. Sure, I can run a different sideboard with some better combo options. I can mix up my sweepers a bit, maybe sideboard (or mainboard) some extra ones to help out with Grixis Delver with sideboard Pithing Needles (which is super terrifying). I don't know what I can do about Lands in Ultimate.
Tying back to losing the die roll and being one turn behind -- it's possible that we want to be 4 Vet 4 DRS -- the full 8-pack. I don't THINK it's probably right, but I want to at least toss it out there for consideration. I've had enough of those scenarios where I'm one turn behind my opponent that having the extra 1-mana accelerants guys might be worth it.
A quick note on the way out, here -- the Delver decks are metamorphosing, a little. They're getting a little bigger, presumably to fight Shardless and Miracles more effectively. They're running Vendilion Clique and True-Name Nemesis now. Not a lot of copies of them, certainly -- something like 2 TNN and 1 Clique, or some such. But it's worth noting that they're in the meta now. They're certainly not going as big as we are -- but True-Name in particular is noteworthy because that's a card that can steal games from us if we're not careful.
I'll have more thoughts later after I unpack and ruminate a little.
@Arian, I have to agree with you in regards to the following subjects:
-Meren
-Tracker
-Safekeeper
I think that you have perfectly summed up what you have elegantly said about them, so +1.
I'm so SO tilted for a couple miracles matches I have done today that I have decided to shape the sideboard in a more radical fashion:
-2 Abeyances
-3 Games
-1 Deluge
-1 Teeg
-2 Canonist
-2 Surgicals
-1 Sorin
-1 PoP (at least)
-x Discard spells
No more grip because 1-2 are not enough to remove top against miracles, since they always brainstorm or ponder into a following top to play.
No more Safekeeper (it was a cool trick of a card but too situational).
Instead: 2 Abeyances + 3 Games are a massive move against combo/control decks and on paper it sounds to be the non plus ultra approach to fight the miracles deck. I hope so, at least.
I would love to live in a world where this is true, and I agree that when Nic Fit was capable of being a control deck, that was when we were best. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that we are currently incapable of being a control deck against most of the format. We can generally control Shardless. We can kind of/sort of control Delver. We can kind of/sort of control Painter and some of the other, slower combo decks. Trying to out-control Miracles is a goddamn joke. Trying to control Lands is fundamentally impossible. Eldrazi is a weird toss-up match where who is control vs who is beatdown varies depending on each player's hand. We can't control Aggro Loam. We can't control Burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Maybe that means that Nic Fit is just a fundamentally bad deck nowadays. Maybe it means we need to try harder to adapt to the times. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that we cannot exist in a pure control space and reasonably hope to win tournaments.
Good analysis, obviously Pod being the other option, but Im no expert here.
Not every list is running Coucils Judgment, so I dont think Safekeeper is a totally dead card in Junk, because as such, you could argue the walker plan is toast as well. Overall, I agree with most of the points though.
It is not "pure" 1-ofs, some of the effects are overlapping in some ways or some other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Throw some discard along the way and your opponent can really start digging their own yard...
Yeah, as I mentioned, I don't play Pod or PFire so I can't talk about those.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
All of the Miracles lists I saw at the GP and all of the Miracles lists I've seen / played vs at Mythic have been on Council's Judgment. I'm sure not every person is running the card, but all of them around me have been, which I can extrapolate to suggest that it's a card that will be in at least a strong majority of lists. Obviously nothing is ever absolute -- I'm just drawing conclusions based on percentages.
I don't think the walker plan is that great, either, to be honest. I don't know what a great plan is, really. About the best you can really do, I think, is keep forcing them to 1-for-1 you and hope that your threat density outpaces their answer density, and that they don't hit a Jace and start burying you.
That's one of the reasons I'm so attracted to the colorless build -- it has the best Miracles matchup that I've found out of all Nic Fits at this point. It's not foolproof, obviously -- it has a hard time pressuring Nahiri, and fast Mentor hands can sometimes run it over. But on par, Colorless does best vs Miracles due to Ugin and the Eldrazi titans being a top-end that's very, very hard for them to effectively deal with.
@Arianrhod - Do you think it's a possibility to speed up our clock? Maybe with PoP as people have been discussing, or some other better board presence?
The Jund builds have an extra benefit in that they can run Kolaghan's Command, which kills those needles you're talking about along with a huge amount of other miscellaneous garbage. In particular K-Comm helps a lot with Scapeshift because it kills Inkmoth Nexus, which is otherwise a horrible problem for most lists.
I didn't say pure. I just want more copies of the cards I need so I have a higher likelihood of drawing them, especially since we don't have blue cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
"Nothing is ever absolute" WOAH theres a paradox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
GB 8 Post seems to be where you want to be when it comes to oversaturated miracles meta. Nahiri is stupid and I wish it hadn't been printing. everyone is fanbitching super hard over it and I hate it.
How many K-Comm do you play in Scape ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
If you wanna beat Miracle all day / every day; just play stax...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
The brown list provided in my sig should be a good starting point. It is so one sided that we ended up testing post board for miracle (with me not using the side) and I was still winning by far...
But well this deck also has its own issues.