Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Thanks for your explanation. I was thinking maybe cutting down ponders can also help hedge against chalice of the void, since there are so many running around these days, one less dead card in your hand. I have been experimenting between cadei's list but somehow 20 lands seemed too little or that i am not the miracles master he is. I feel that the correct number is 21 but the card slots are really tight. What would you advise cutting?

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I would not run any Miracles list with 20 lands without 4 Ponders - period. One of the most important functions of Ponder is to ensure you hit land drops. By playing less than 4 Ponders and 20 Lands there are situations where you will get punished. Even with 4 Ponders, I wouldn't be playing 20 lands in concert with mana intensive cards like Council's Judgment/Jace/Entreat but that's just my preference. I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I piloted my 3-Ponder-Hybrid list to 6-3-left round 10 to go home early at EW NA 2016. I never found myself wanting the 4th Ponder in any of the rounds I lost. I do think at 2 is too few, but 3 or 4 really comes down to the pilot's preference with what direction they want to take their build in.

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I agree with this. At the same time though, I also think it’s extremely difficult to evaluate cantrips for lists. You have to put in hundreds of hours into testing to get a good determination of how many copies of something like Ponder is optimal for the list you’re playing.

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Originally Posted by hyp3r1on

I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.

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Nah~, not Counterspell. If anything, should be a FoW, assuming you run 4. Counterspell at least allows you to 1-for-1, FoW is rather underwhelming against fair decks. In most builds, you're not favored against unfair decks game 1 anyway. The only reason people prefer to run the 4th FoW is because turn 1 Vial/Chalice, yet Chalice decks are on the decline. I'm definitely not saying that because Lossett runs 3 FoW.

If Chalice decks continue to decline, we can probably cut either EE or CJ.

For reference, I run 20 lands + Karakas + 3 Ponders. It's very hard to argue against results when many successful pilots don't run Karakas. Some say it's difficult to deal with DnT when Thalia is protected, but Karakas allows you to "timewalk" DnT when he doesn't have Vial on 2. Now Leovold becomes trendy, it's definitely possible for you to float a CMC 3 and bounce Leovold via Karakas (If BUG has decay, he would have cast it on CB already), not to mention it's another out against trendy br reanimator even under Chancellor (as long as it's not turn 1 sire of insanity).

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Hello guys,

I'm fairly new to the deck, as it's just a couple months since I picked it up. I'd like to ask you some questions, as you're all more experienced than me and for sure you can help me improve and understand more the deck. I'm sorry in advance if this is nothing new to you or it's something you find trivial.


- First of all I'd like to ask you why nobody doesn't play anymore the Daze version that let Claudio Bonanni lift the trophy in Lille. It seems to me that Daze could be pretty good right now, as the meta develops around highly costed spells, such as True Name Nemesis, Leovold, Show and Tell, Aluren, Sneak Attack. Also it seems to have and edge in the mirror. What's the reason behind it's disappearence from decklists?

- Second, what do you think about BBD's Louisville list? I'm asking that because the list seems really different from the ones I can lurk in this thread. No Entreat, no Council, full set of Ponder, just 2 Jaces and a total of 3 Mentors. Do you think it's a solid choice? What are its benefits compared to a stock list with EtA, Council, Predict, 0-2 Mentors?

Thanks a lot and sorry if you got botherd or bored reading my post :smile:

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Daze doesn't really synergize with most Miracles game plans; It sets you back one land drop and becomes next to useless in the late game; which is where a lot of games involving Miracles tend to end up.

Bonanni was doubling down on Mentor and was running a midrange game plan centered around it. If you want to apply this strategy then Daze works okay, but the meta has since evolved and people tend to be prepared for Mentor these days so going all in might not be as effective as before.

BBD's list is fairly standard 4 Ponder with Mentors. It aims for consistency and the ability to close games out faster than Entreat builds. As for lack of CJ, most players use EE instead as it's a much more flexible removal spell that doesn't require double white and is easier to cast when you're running lower land counts.

People have different reasons for running or not running the predict in their lists and there's no real consensus about it. There's some discussion on the subject some pages back.

Hope that helps!

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Originally Posted by hyp3r1on

I would not run any Miracles list with 20 lands without 4 Ponders - period. One of the most important functions of Ponder is to ensure you hit land drops. By playing less than 4 Ponders and 20 Lands there are situations where you will get punished. Even with 4 Ponders, I wouldn't be playing 20 lands in concert with mana intensive cards like Council's Judgment/Jace/Entreat but that's just my preference. I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.



I agree with this. At the same time though, I also think it’s extremely difficult to evaluate cantrips for lists. You have to put in hundreds of hours into testing to get a good determination of how many copies of something like Ponder is optimal for the list you’re playing.

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Very true. I'm running 21 lands (though Karakas is really half land half spell, but a land nonetheless) so perhaps 3 really is the optimal number for 21.

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Hello guys,

I'm fairly new to the deck, as it's just a couple months since I picked it up. I'd like to ask you some questions, as you're all more experienced than me and for sure you can help me improve and understand more the deck. I'm sorry in advance if this is nothing new to you or it's something you find trivial.


- First of all I'd like to ask you why nobody doesn't play anymore the Daze version that let Claudio Bonanni lift the trophy in Lille. It seems to me that Daze could be pretty good right now, as the meta develops around highly costed spells, such as True Name Nemesis, Leovold, Show and Tell, Aluren, Sneak Attack. Also it seems to have and edge in the mirror. What's the reason behind it's disappearence from decklists?

- Second, what do you think about BBD's Louisville list? I'm asking that because the list seems really different from the ones I can lurk in this thread. No Entreat, no Council, full set of Ponder, just 2 Jaces and a total of 3 Mentors. Do you think it's a solid choice? What are its benefits compared to a stock list with EtA, Council, Predict, 0-2 Mentors?

Thanks a lot and sorry if you got botherd or bored reading my post :smile:

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Daze is not as good as it sounds on paper. Even in games where people are casting big expensive spells, unless they are trying to curve out perfectly, they can (on incidentally do) leave a mana up. Also the rest of miracles operates on having lots of lands so setting yourself back a land drop can be a big deal some times. Daze would be good in a meta where card advantage didnt matter much and format was decided in the first 1-2 turns of the game.

BBD's list is close to what I have been playing since mentor was printed. In my experience, 3 mentor works better than any number of entreats. The ONLY matchup I miss having entreat is against Shardless, but the difference isn't advantage of entreat isn't that big, and the shardless matchup is still favored with this list.

Here's my list if your interested:
20 Land:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Predict
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 From the Ashes/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Kozilek's return/Staticaster
1 Mountain
4 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear

Thanks a lot icedagger and TheArchitect for your replies and help.

Given your feedback regarding Daze, what are nowadays the cards and way to build the deck that let you have an edge in the mirror, aside from the clunky Legend version?
I like a lot BBD's list and even more Wilson Hunter's list. EE, maxing out on Mentors, playing a low land count, all seem to me great ways to be ahead when you're facing the mirror. Am I wrong?

How would you build your deck to face the current metagame full of BUG, Death and Taxes, BR Reanimator and mirrors?

As I said, I love Wilson Hunter's list, it's really similar to the one I was playing with Dazes, but I wonder how he deals with all these Sultai decks without any Jace

I was thinking about Quasim0ff's and lordofthepit's Ponder shuffle problems. If MODO is as garbage a program as it is, then since all RNGs have to follow some sort of formula/code, perhaps the code for the shuffle off Ponder is somehow different for the code from a shuffle off a fetch or other search effect? That might explain why you're getting the same card drawn after a shuffle? Though I don't know if that explains why it doesn't always happen.

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

TGiven your feedback regarding Daze, what are nowadays the cards and way to build the deck that let you have an edge in the mirror, aside from the clunky Legend version?
I like a lot BBD's list and even more Wilson Hunter's list. EE, maxing out on Mentors, playing a low land count, all seem to me great ways to be ahead when you're facing the mirror. Am I wrong?

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To get an edge in the mirror, learning to play the matchup better is the biggest thing but also max out on instant speed permission (Blast, counterspell, flusterstorm, etc). Running a 4th snapcaster in the board is also not a bad idea.

Mentor is terrible in game 1 in the mirror, but makes game 2-3 awkward since mentor forces your opponent to leave in terminus or make mentor a must-counter.

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How would you build your deck to face the current metagame full of BUG, Death and Taxes, BR Reanimator and mirrors?

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The list above is what I would play currently. BBD and Wilson I am sure took the meta into account as well.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I was thinking about Quasim0ff's and lordofthepit's Ponder shuffle problems. If MODO is as garbage a program as it is, then since all RNGs have to follow some sort of formula/code, perhaps the code for the shuffle off Ponder is somehow different for the code from a shuffle off a fetch or other search effect? That might explain why you're getting the same card drawn after a shuffle?

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that's a possible coding bug (albeit a stupid one lol), yes.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Though I don't know if that explains why it doesn't always happen.

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lordofthepit's _two_ game sample size is laughably small. if people seriously think Ponder is bugged on mtgo, then someone should do an actual experiment.

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suppose the top three cards of your library are C1, C2, C3.

let A be the event that the card you draw after a shuffle is one of {C1, C2, C3}
let B be the event that the card you draw after a Ponder shuffle is one of {C1, C2, C3}

it ought to be the case that P(A) = P(B). that is to say: Ponder is not bugged in the way people are complaining; shuffling with Ponder has the same effect as shuffling any other way.

we'd like to estimate the mtgo-world values of P(A) and P(B) and compare them.

I recently experienced putting two mentors on top with brainstorm, spinning top and seeing something as well as the two mentors.

I shuffled and saw the same three cards (one of them was a one off!) shuffle again and see the exact same three cards. The chances are insanely low, statistically speaking.

So i just joined the ranks of miracle players and have read through some of this threat. I am looking to run something like this:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21465&iddeck=164628

Although i will be running 2 mentors 1 entreat main and play ensnaring bridge instead of moat postboard.
What do you guys think about this list?:)

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I recently experienced putting two mentors on top with brainstorm, spinning top and seeing something as well as the two mentors.

I shuffled and saw the same three cards (one of them was a one off!) shuffle again and see the exact same three cards. The chances are insanely low, statistically speaking.

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WotC must be trying out a new nerf to get people to stop playing Miracles since they very well can't ban anything from it.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

WotC must be trying out a new nerf to get people to stop playing Miracles since they very well can't ban anything from it.

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Unlikely, as these cards are used in many decks, not just the miracles...Conspiracy Theorist much?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Unlikely, as these cards are used in many decks, not just the miracles...Conspiracy Theorist much?

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One way to test is to see if other people running these cards in other decks are having the same issue? It could be tied to the deck hash or whatever.

Since you guys have mentioned it, the Ponders I'm casting in Delver decks online seem to be giving back the top card quite often too. But not every time so it could just be confirmation bias. I've also started ordering the cards, even if I'll shuffle, with the one I'll want most at the top.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Mentor is terrible in game 1 in the mirror, but makes game 2-3 awkward since mentor forces your opponent to leave in terminus or make mentor a must-counter.

The list above is what I would play currently. BBD and Wilson I am sure took the meta into account as well.

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Or..., because you hate DnT so much, you happen to have Sulfur Elemental in your SB... :)

Sulfur Elemental is huge in the mirror as well.

I loved the transformational sideboard of the 2nd placed in GP Chiba.

Mentor Miracle MD
Sulfur Miracle SB for Mirror and DnT

You then seal Entreat with EE for 0 always online

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

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Originally Posted by jwl3gg

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

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Yes you can pretty easily get by with those numbers.

More than get by, many of us run 2 and 2 by choice

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Originally Posted by jwl3gg

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

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Better than having 3 Tundras and 1 Volc.

I start seeing much more Spell Snare then Spell Pierce, what about Gideon AZ in the mirror?

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Originally Posted by Poron

I start seeing much more Spell Snare then Spell Pierce, what about Gideon AZ in the mirror?

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I'd be wary of going for 4cmc sorcery speed win conditions in the mirror, even if they're not hit with Pyroblast. It's certainly hard to interact with and might get you there, but giving the opponent a window to play a CB is risky. Not sure what you'd cut from the SB for it too? It is really strong vs other fair decks too, though.

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Originally Posted by jwl3gg

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

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You can take a look at this list : http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12681&d=273532&f=LE

2 Tundra and 2 Volcanic :)

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I'd be wary of going for 4cmc sorcery speed win conditions in the mirror, even if they're not hit with Pyroblast. It's certainly hard to interact with and might get you there, but giving the opponent a window to play a CB is risky. Not sure what you'd cut from the SB for it too? It is really strong vs other fair decks too, though.

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in the mirror there is just 1 card able to interact with a resolved Gideon: CJ. Not even an EOT ambush-Clique really gets you there.

With 2 Sulfur 1,2 Gideon and 1 Entreat Mirror might be much easier imho

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Originally Posted by Poron

in the mirror there is just 1 card able to interact with a resolved Gideon: CJ. Not even an EOT ambush-Clique really gets you there.

With 2 Sulfur 1,2 Gideon and 1 Entreat Mirror might be much easier imho

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Mentor and Entreat can answer Gideon pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by Poron

in the mirror there is just 1 card able to interact with a resolved Gideon: CJ. Not even an EOT ambush-Clique really gets you there.

With 2 Sulfur 1,2 Gideon and 1 Entreat Mirror might be much easier imho

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How much have you've actually PLAYED the mirror?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I went ahead and tested the shuffler in solitaire mode for two games with a deck designed to do nothing but cantrip into Ponder and Portent, and I feel pretty confident in saying that at least in solitaire mode, Ponder and Portent both work as intended.

http://i.imgur.com/BWkgmIH.jpg

I recorded the three cards I stacked with Ponder or Portent, as well as the number of copies of that card remaining in my library in parentheses. I shuffled on every instance and recorded the card drawn off the "blind" Ponder or Portent. In all eleven occasions, I drew a different card than the one stacked on top, and it does not appear that I am any more likely to drop the middle or bottom card either.

	Cantrip Cast	Top Card	Middle Card	Bottom Card	Card Drawn
Game 1	Ponder	Preordain (2)	Serum Visions (4)	Gush (4)	Treasure Cruise
Game 1	Ponder	Serum Visions (4)	Portent (4)	Portent (4)	Scalding Tarn
Game 1	Ponder	Dig Through Time (3)	Gush (4)	Gush (4)	Gush
Game 1	Portent	Flooded Strand (1)	Tundra (1)	Dig Through Time (3)	Treasure Cruise
Game 2	Ponder	Gush (4)	Volcanic Island (1)	Flooded Strand (3)	Flooded Strand
Game 2	Ponder	Gush (4)	Scalding Tarn (3)	Scalding Tarn (3)	Gitaxian Probe
Game 2	Portent	Underground Sea (1)	Preordain (3)	Dig Through Time (3)	Serum Visions
Game 2	Portent	Polluted Delta (2)	Serum Visions (3)	Cruise (3)	Preordain
Game 2	Portent	Underground Sea (1)	Serum Visions (2)	Dig Through Time (2)	Polluted Delta
Game 2	Portent	Ponder (2)	Gush (3)	Serum Visions (3)	Scalding Tarn
Game 2	Ponder	Thought Scour (2)	Treasure Cruise (1)	Gush (1)	Brainstorm

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Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to dig deeper into this concern. Looks like it truly was just paranoia :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Poron

in the mirror there is just 1 card able to interact with a resolved Gideon: CJ. Not even an EOT ambush-Clique really gets you there.

With 2 Sulfur 1,2 Gideon and 1 Entreat Mirror might be much easier imho

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This isn't how logic in constructing sideboards works. Sure, I'd love to have multiple Containment Priests in my sideboard whenever I play against Sneak/Reanimator. I'd also like to have Moats and Back to Basics whenever I play against Eldrazi; Humility whenever I play against Aluren; more disenchant effects against Death and Taxes etc etc etc. You only get 15 slots and when you're always talking about bringing in all these silver bullet cards for specific matchups - it doesn't make much sense.

As someone who actually played Gideon for a brief window around GP Columbus, I can tell you from experience it's not really worth the slot. Sure, it's decent against BUG Decks and situationally solid in the mirror but it's not really where you want to be at. I'd rather have access to an additional Vendilion Clique, a 4th Pyroblast, Spell Snares or even a 4th Snapcaster Mage postboard in the Miracles mirror. All these cards happen to be good against a wide range of other matchups. The issue with Gideon in the mirror is that he's only good when both players resources in hand have been exhausted. You never really want to tap out for a Gideon, let your shields down to your opponent resolving Countertop and getting something like an uncontested Mentor down. I'd always focus my efforts on playing specific matchups technically soundly then scouring for "unbeatable" narrow bullet cards.

^ That, well said.

BBD's article regarding the GP,
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...date=1-19-2017

Are there any guides what card is good in x matchups? Like what matchups are Entreat the Angels good for, and when to side it out etc.

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Originally Posted by jwl3gg

Are there any guides what card is good in x matchups? Like what matchups are Entreat the Angels good for, and when to side it out etc.

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In general, Entreat is a very good win condition against decks that lack soft permission, are grindy in nature and/or have difficulty dealing with multiple Angel tokens - Decks like Shardless, Jund, 4Colour Loam, Death and Taxes, BGx, Lands etc. Entreat is a lot more difficult to set up against decks that have access to stuff like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorms etc such as Delver or the mirror postboard. In most combo matchups you don't really want Entreat as a win con either, as you will typically win games with disruption creatures alone. Entreat is also a lot less preferred to Mentors against very aggressive decks such as Burn or Eldrazi as its harder to set up and a lot slower than Mentor.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by twndomn

BBD's article regarding the GP,
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...date=1-19-2017

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Thanks for sharing the article, nice to see an alternative view in how to play miracles.

I would say with the addition of mentor to eschew from entreat the angels, miracles can definitely be seen more a mid range deck than a pure control deck. Even if it means jamming counterbalances/mentors into dazes/pierces. Gonna try with BBD's approach and see how it goes. What are your opinions on this?

I would agree with you if it wasn't that you just see the usual 3-4 decks the whole tournament and for fair decks there is already Mentor.

Gideon is very strong against both 4color/Sultai Delver and the in the mirror. It simply is not your priority and it flips to counter Jace

1x is fine.. I agree that Clique has the priority though

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Originally Posted by Poron

I would agree with you if it wasn't that you just see the usual 3-4 decks the whole tournament and for fair decks there is already Mentor.

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What tournaments are you talking about, and do you play in many?

GP Louisville had 7 archetypes in the top 8.

yes and gp Columbus had 4 Miracles in the top 8 and GP Chiba had 3.

Miracles/Mirror is a very common matchup

I think an important point to make here is that some of the generalizations based on BBD's article are based on a metagame that is just now emerging. BUG decks were at a very high point at GP Louisville, probably higher than that of GP Paris, the last heyday of Team America. If Decay-based and TNN-based decks become the norm, the metagame as a whole just means things are slower. BUG delver prevailed over the tried-and-true shells of Grixis and that means overall less lightning bolts. Mentor excels in situations like these where, before, it was met with a simple bolt more often, and bolt also often answered JTMS in this sense. I'm not saying that mentor ate a bolt and died everytime, it still shone and the concept of midrange-miracles decks is nothing new, but in this new, emerging metagame, a card like Lightning Bolt will be played less overall, especially with this new 1 CMC removal spell that doesn't kill Jace. BUG decks will be overall on the rise and it's possible that the midrange-style of miracles can be used to fight against an overall slower and grindier metagame.

NOTE: I am not comparing mentor to entreat in this sense, simply highlighting why this style of miracles and mentor+Jace shells in general might just be better than ever in the post-Louisville realm of Legacy. It's possible that I'm assuming far too much as Legacy is a rather slow and immutable format, but that's my two-cents.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Thanks for sharing the article, nice to see an alternative view in how to play miracles.

I would say with the addition of mentor to eschew from entreat the angels, miracles can definitely be seen more a mid range deck than a pure control deck. Even if it means jamming counterbalances/mentors into dazes/pierces. Gonna try with BBD's approach and see how it goes. What are your opinions on this?

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I disagree that Entreat is objectively inferior to Mentor (as BBD believes). It all depends on the style of deck and the metagame for it. If you want to play Miracles as a hard-control deck, then ETA is a better finisher. If you want to play Miracles as a tap-out control deck, then Mentor is better. And like the above poster said, Mentor was a lot worse in a meta that had cheap kill spells, and since the meta is shifting from that Mentor is better positioned now.

I don't like jamming my win-cons without a way to protect them, which is why I don't like playing Mentor main. I'm fine jamming a CB into a Daze if I have a better followup next turn, but I don't want to lose a T3 Mentor to a Decay or Bolt because that's one less way I'll be able to actually kill my opponent rather than make them concede to the lock (which they don't do anyway).