[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I am doing some testing with unexpected absence in a more white centric build and have been pleasantly suprizes. The card is great in a format with fetchlands against any opponent and is a good "counter spell" against removal on our guys.

Lilliana is hard to fit in with a more white centric mana base, vindicate might just be a better card and we don't play that,for the most part, but it is instant speed and has more applications....

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I'll 100% agree I miss Vindicate, but Liliana is really freaking good. I got to smash my SnT opponent the other night when they just dropped Emrakul off Show and Tell when I had Thalia out, so I dropped a land, then on my turn I dropped Liliana and wiped him out of the game.

Vindicate does have play, and it would definitely give a bit better of an edge against Jace decks, which sometimes I've had trouble with lately preboard since I just can't kill the Jace. Liliana against those decks can be great, except if I do ultimate them, sometimes they just keep the jace and I still lose.

I'll do more testing.

-Matt

Matt, Steve, thanks for the suggestions. I like the consensus that Smiter can replace Goyf, I was unsure because, well, it is Goyfe.. but I like the fact that RiP won't hose ALL my creatures.
I'll definitely be cutting the Inquisition for another Decay, and I'll see if I can find another Smiter, Library and some Aethersworn Canonist's by tomorrow. I'll post a report after the tourney.

No report but I did get a chance to test (very little); things went well. I'm going to be running with this list once it's all available online.


1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Smiter

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Toxic Deluge


On This and some odds and ends

I've been looking at the different things that were said and also at some of the metagame since my last post. I am going to forgo the Moxen at present as I think they may not be as helpful as they once were. There was a tournament locally today but I was unable to attend as I had to start work at 17:00 CST and it may have gone later than that.

I enjoyed the Smiter and the fact that it takes the possibility of a counter out of the equation. Although, that also removes my ability to bait a counter as well for something else. Knight has also continued to be of assistance and Cabal Pit was also more useful than Bojuka Bog for me, although I was testing vs a Bug control list. I am thinking of changing one of the Teeg's into a Riftsweeper, except I'm not sure if I want to have to find it or the Zenith to get it on the field (sidenote: would be useful against suspend).

I've lowered the number of Zenith as I'm not depending on it. The options are pretty simple: Ramp (where it is 1 of 4), Utility (Goyf, Bird, and Pridemage), and Redundancy (the rest of the non-mentioned greed critters). I figure that I won't need to use it as a utility spell as much as either a ramp or redundancy spell so a single should be ok... We'll see.

I'm opting for Toxic Deluge over Deed because they'll accomplish the same goal but, potentially at less mana as well as less of my board. Much of the format is X/1 with a couple X/2. The other things that I'd deed are Goyf, Knight, and Smiter. Things like Counterbalance should be able to be controlled with Decays/Charms where I won't lose my board as well.

Pithing Needle is a cover to both the Sneak Attack decks as well as Jace/Planeswalker decks. I don't think I'll being it in against aggressive decks with abilities since I have enough removal to deal with those.

Sword of Light and Shadow is both Pro-White (miracles match to attach to Teeg) as well as Pro-Black (have to decay sword before creature). The additional bonuses of Raise Dead and Healing Salve have their place, but they're probably not as important. Unfortunately there is no Black and Blue sword at this time since I'd use that over this most likely.

I did not get a chance to test Monastery because I forgot about it... First time back and all. Had I remembered, I'm pretty sure I could have killed the Jace 2 turns earlier in one game. I'll have to go back and watch my replay to confirm though... Hope it saved.

Some Questions that I'm wondering about

People are recommending Cannonist right now. Is that really that good vs the decks of the format? I've seen A LOT of Show and Tell based decks and am wondering if it's better to have them pay an additional mana (Thalia) over being limited in the number of cantrips they can play to search (Cannonist). Or, is it more for the Jund/Bug matches to remove the advantages from both Blood Braid Elf and Shardless Agent. I'm just wondering other people's thought(s) on the subject.

What're people's thought(s) on Haunted Plate Mail? I've been eyeing this since I started looking again and think it would be great vs Control decks in general. They wipe your board, you swing for 4 damage and then play creatures. They have to Swords/Terminus this unless they want to bring in artifact removal.

Has mana denial been a thing lately? Can it be? I haven't seen it to be and it seems as though every deck is either able to run off of 0-2 lands or is running Deathrite Shaman. So I'm thinking no... just wondering if that could be a yes... hopefully.

EDIT - With so many blue decks main-boarding Misdirection, would it make more sense to swap some number of duress in place of thoughtseize. Also, the previously mentioned idea of Chain of Smog may become more appealing as you can copy the spell back to them as you become the target. Also useful if you're using Smiter(s) vs the deck as your discarded Smiter(s) to copies will count as their spell and go directly into play.

Does anyone else think tHat the rise of blue nemisis decks is good for us? The tempo desk will be adding more 3cc spells into the mix for us to crush. Lilliana will be putting in some work! And if she needs help we have everything from infest to the new toxic deluge. If it gets really bad we can always resort to sudden spoiling.

Liliana is not a good answer against TNN. Even if you +1 her, TNN can always get her out of edict range. So you need to land her when they have an empty board, other than TNN. Sure, at least she can hit him, unlike our other 8 removal spells, but you need to be sort of ahead to pull it of. Plus TNN is more of a midrange or control card than tempo. It is bad for us, because it gives TNN decks inevitability against us.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

What does that mean?

I'm saying we're not running her as the mainstay of the deck, she's just value. Don't give a long line of ? without explaining what you want me to explain.

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How do you run her differently than other decks?

You sac a creature and then tick her up. BUG does this as well.

sdematt

I read your report from SCG seattle few pages back and noticed one thing: against reanimater you kept 2 abrupt decays after boarding. What for? also why not bring in Gaddock Teeg? I found him very good in games where they resolve a griselbrand and you have a stp. Because if stp gets countered at that point you fall back too much and the game is over. Whereas teeg stops that

I keep in 2 decays so I can hit Pithing Needles and Animate Deads if I need to. Gaddock Teeg does zip against Reanimator.

In my mind, I have to have a line of play where I get Gaddock Teeg first, then they get to Reanimate, then I get to STP them, then they get a bunch of life and do it again. They play Flusterstorm which gets around Teeg, and Teeg isn't shutting off any reanimation. I'd rather search for Ooze than Teeg.

-Matt

I've been reading but actually haven't been playing much but I did a chance to play today. The Grad Prix Trial wasn't the biggest one but it was very meta based. I won't write on how it went because my two lost were just because i played very greedy haha... rust. Anyway here's the list and my opinion on some of the stuff recently discussed:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Smiter

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquistion
2 Liliana of The Veil
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marshflat
2 Windswept Heath
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains
3 wasteland
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

3 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chains of Meso...
3 Thorns of Amethyst
2 Humility
2 Pericious Deed
3 Golagari Charms




First, I'd like to talk about Smiter. Yes he is good against bug, uwr, rug, and sometimes jund. The one thing i didn't like about him that is going to make me go back to Tarmogoyf is the fact that he's 3 multicolor and when confidant flips him, it punishes. Tarmogoyf in my opinion does make is more GY vulnerable but what he does it provide pressure and a faster clock, thats what I like about him over the smiter. I tried smiter today and he had his moments but there was times where i wanted to side him out a lot. So... in my opinion, he might be a good sideboard idea.


Then... I prefer Thorn over Thalia. It's harder to get rid of for combo and whatever else you bring it in for. I shut burn and TES down and thwy never caught back up.

Lastly. I like Ian's idea of Toxic Deluge. DnT is a serious problem and Goblins in my opinion can be a problem. The nemisis merfolk deck also will become a problem.

For anyone looking at toxic deluge... Infest has been gold for me for at least the last year. I have been running it along side golgari charm to stop tribal/small dude.dec pretty hard.

Deluge is a good card but I am still deciding if it is better than infest for decks that can play it, us, and I am not sure.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

For anyone looking at toxic deluge... Infest has been gold for me for at least the last year. I have been running it along side golgari charm to stop tribal/small dude.dec pretty hard.

Deluge is a good card but I am still deciding if it is better than infest for decks that can play it, us, and I am not sure.

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What do you guys think of Massacre instead of Toxic Deluge or Infest? I mean it hits the most Tier 1 Decks like Maverick, DnT, UWr Delver, Esper Deathblade etc.
Sure it doesn`t hit Goblins or Elves but hey it`s a free mass removal? Especially against UWr you can play around Daze and Pierce with it...

Just thoughts...

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

What do you guys think of Massacre instead of Toxic Deluge or Infest? I mean it hits the most Tier 1 Decks like Maverick, DnT, UWr Delver, Esper Deathblade etc.
Sure it doesn`t hit Goblins or Elves but hey it`s a free mass removal? Especially against UWr you can play around Daze and Pierce with it...

Just thoughts...

Greetings

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Here's what I don't like about it--if they slam Teeg it's dead. Toxic Deluge kills -everything-.

Another finish, 8th of 22 in Spain:

Creatures [17]
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instants [7]
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries [9]
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Garruk Relentless

Artifacts [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


//BOARD
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

Running the Vindicate over the Liliana, considering in this deck, it seems like you're not breaking the Liliana symmetry at all (and mostly, neither are we).

Liliana is a HUGE headache for Miracles, but I'm wondering about trying Vindicate again for chuckles just to try it again.

-Matt

Smiters, SFM + Batterskull, Toxic Deluge...I'm intrigued by recent developments

What's the best way to combat the recent uprising of Death and Taxes? Generally I side in Golgari Charms and Deeds and call it a day, but I'm tempted to go for a Charm/Deluge split.

Massacre and Infest are great options, but they share the same reason why I haven't wanted to use them. They're both -2/-2. Majority of my creatures are X/2. The ability to remove majority of problems (Mom, Clique, 3/1 Progenitus, etc) and still be able to keep mine has great appeal. I also may need to raise it to a higher value since there are situations where I will need it to operate as a pseudo Pernicious Deed.

@Petree, Majority of lists are running creature removal to deal with the different hate. Majority of our lists do count on "bears" to disrupt while increasing clock going so you're probably on the right path to stop that habit of jumping on a clock and commit to the disruption. I'm tired of Pyroclasm setting my opponent back on track.

How was the Chains?
Are the Humility for the SnT matches?
Why not Oblivion Ring? Sneak Attack?
Is the Maze still working out or could you have replaced it with an alternative?

-In other questions, Has Nic Fit been played much? IS that still a thing? I saw one list but I haven’t seen numbers for it getting played.

Got 13th at SCG Los Angeles. Is it just me, or is SCG getting shittier and shittier with deck names? Don't even bother to put "Dark" with "Maverick" anymore. Anyway, my deck is Junk even though SCG mislabeled it.

Lost to Shardless BUG game 3 after mulling to 5 with a bad mana setup while he got a very aggro hand(2 drs, 3 goyf, 1 strix).

Lost to Oops, All Spells after somehow talking myself out of a turn 2 teeg game 1 after "Gitaxian Probe, pass". Surgical against no protection took game 2. Game 3 I mulled to 6 on the draw and kept a hand I probably shouldn't have, 1 iok, 1 surgical, hatebears, no lands. He passes turn 1, but I didn't get the land and he had the pact.

Beat 2 DNT, 2 SNS, UWR Delver, RUG Delver, and Tin Fins.

Grats on the finish! wish I could have made it one state over…

I am having a hard time not switching to Jund today…The Lilliana synergy is just too storming with punishing fires, the red spell also keeps them safe from other lillianas and helps kill walkers itself!

I haven't sleeved anything yet but I did check to see if I had the duals for the switch…. and I do...

Jund's very good(and was positioned very well in SCG LA) and has a similar feel to Junk. Trying it out can't hurt.

I don't want to do it based on principle.... I have a long standing grudge against BGr over BGw since the days of aggro loam. It might just be time to go over to the dark side for a little bit.

Okay,

I am back to brewing…. Thinking about playing red made me feel so dirty… I must have been coming down with something…

I really feel like swords > bolt in a midrange deck and SFM > punishing fires for long game advantage. The card advantage is hard to overcome between hymn and bloodbraid elf but that is why I might be back on the knight of the reliquary train.

Things we can do that they can't: tutor like crazy. With GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic and Knight of the Reliquary we can look through out libraries and find exactly what we need.


Creatures 16
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Teeg

Planeswalker 2
2 Lilliana of the Veil(could be 1 garruk)

Instant 7
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Sorcery 10
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Inquisition
3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam

Artifact 2
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

Land 23
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Maze of Ith
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
6 Fetch lands

And Here we are with the main deck!
I added the Knight/Loam synergy with the horizon canopy+monastery for recurring draw and beats. Monastery also owns Jace pretty hard.

The creature base is meant to be able to pick up a jitte and run with it, except for knight of the reliquary, which is meant to do mean things. 4 swords/3 decay are to keep annoying 1 drops off of the board(mom, DRS, delver) and still hit things that need to die. 6 discard plus teeg is to give combo a run game one, without goyf maindeck it will be more difficult though. I cut goyf because at the end of the day, I feel like he hasn't been pulling his weight in most match ups.

The board will be my usual choice of cards:

1 Sword of fire and ice/Light and shadow
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Extirpate
3 Golgari Charm
3 Thalia
3 Smiter
1 Quasali Pridemage

Now i am off to test and be inspired again!

I am looking for room for 2-3 smiter at the moment….