Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Played to a meh finish at SCG louisville today. Im very new to D&T, so I didnt feel bad about my 3-4 finish (especially since I got exactly one turn each game against ANT) but wanted to quickly mention Eldrazi.
Basically, I lost in two games, the second being much closer than the first, with my OP left at two life and myself unable to charge through. We played a just-for-fun game afterwards, and it was close but I pulled off the win. Jitte was huge, and i misplayed during the competitive rounds in game two when I could have cast Mystic and didnt, and then lost her to a Thought Knot Seer which plucked her from my hand.
Mana denial didnt come on fast enough for me, even when i ported lands, etc. Flickerwisp on the chalice then equipped with Jitte was great.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
So I am a total noob with DnT, and as i mentioned above, I got crushed by ANT, only getting one turn each game. I was kicking around ideas trying to figure out how to survive their nut draw post board, and seeing as our hate is all two drops (Thalia, canonist, rest in peace, revoker) with maybe the exception of a chalice on zero for petals and LED, I was wondering if a Healing Salve might not be a decent sideboard card. My thinking is that its a one drop that can be cast in response to Tendrils of Agony. Basically, the opponent will build a storm count of ten and then play tendrils. If we Salve in response, we gain three life, and live until the next turn while their hand is depleted.
Im just trying to think of a one drop that saves us until we get online and overwhelm them with taxation.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GrimoirePath
So I am a total noob with DnT, and as i mentioned above, I got crushed by ANT, only getting one turn each game. I was kicking around ideas trying to figure out how to survive their nut draw post board, and seeing as our hate is all two drops (Thalia, canonist, rest in peace, revoker) with maybe the exception of a chalice on zero for petals and LED, I was wondering if a Healing Salve might not be a decent sideboard card. My thinking is that its a one drop that can be cast in response to Tendrils of Agony. Basically, the opponent will build a storm count of ten and then play tendrils. If we Salve in response, we gain three life, and live until the next turn while their hand is depleted.
Im just trying to think of a one drop that saves us until we get online and overwhelm them with taxation.
For what it's worth, we wreck ANT all the time. Yes sometimes, we just lose, but most times we get a turn 2 to mess with them. I strongly recommend not ever casting Healing Salve. That card sucked even when I started playing in 1994 ;)
If you are really looking for an answer in a very combo heavy meta I recommend either Chrome Mox or Elvish/Simiam Spirit Guide (depending on your splash color if any) in addition to your Ethersworn Canonists. The alternate suggestion is to splash black for Thoughtseize. I prefer going green and using Gaddock Teeg, ESG and a full slate of Ethersworn Canonist if my goal is to knock back combo.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GrimoirePath
So I am a total noob with DnT, and as i mentioned above, I got crushed by ANT, only getting one turn each game. I was kicking around ideas trying to figure out how to survive their nut draw post board, and seeing as our hate is all two drops (Thalia, canonist, rest in peace, revoker) with maybe the exception of a chalice on zero for petals and LED, I was wondering if a Healing Salve might not be a decent sideboard card. My thinking is that its a one drop that can be cast in response to Tendrils of Agony. Basically, the opponent will build a storm count of ten and then play tendrils. If we Salve in response, we gain three life, and live until the next turn while their hand is depleted.
Im just trying to think of a one drop that saves us until we get online and overwhelm them with taxation.
So this is a question that comes up from time to time. The short answer to your concern is that your ANT opponent got exceptionally lucky against you and you can get away with just doing nothing. ANT does not go off properly on turn 1 very often. Your opponent probably knew that letting you get to two lands was trouble for him, so he pushed it and apparently succeeded. If your opponent does not know you are playing D+T, you can start by trying to hide this fact on turn 1. Don't play a Plains if you can help it. Maybe start with Cavern of Souls and name Goblin! Or just lay down a Wasteland. Or motion that you have a response to his Ponder and make like you are considering Force of Will. I do that kind of thing all the time, and it occasionally pays off.
Myself, I have never bothered with any kind of turn 1 or turn 0 anti-ANT hate simply because it is too narrow. Legacy hate tends to work best when it is very broad because of the overwhelming variety of decks that are out there. That is especially true of D+T since it is based upon incremental advantage in general. That said, I have been packing a single Chalice of the Void for Elves for over a year now, and that definitely comes in against ANT (not that I even play much these days).
Don't play Healing Salve. If you truly want a card for this, try Mindbreak Trap.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Thanks for the pointers. Haha, i know that salve is a weak ass card, i was just scraping for something thats one white and instant. Mindbreak is a great idea. I formerly was playing lands, and its so easy to get several lands and a mox down and to drop a sphere.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
So this is a question that comes up from time to time. The short answer to your concern is that your ANT opponent got exceptionally lucky against you and you can get away with just doing nothing. ANT does not go off properly on turn 1 very often. Your opponent probably knew that letting you get to two lands was trouble for him, so he pushed it and apparently succeeded. If your opponent does not know you are playing D+T, you can start by trying to hide this fact on turn 1. Don't play a Plains if you can help it. Maybe start with
Cavern of Souls and name Goblin! Or just lay down a Wasteland. Or motion that you have a response to his Ponder and make like you are considering Force of Will. I do that kind of thing all the time, and it occasionally pays off.
Myself, I have never bothered with any kind of turn 1 or turn 0 anti-ANT hate simply because it is too narrow. Legacy hate tends to work best when it is very broad because of the overwhelming variety of decks that are out there. That is especially true of D+T since it is based upon incremental advantage in general. That said, I have been packing a single Chalice of the Void for Elves for over a year now, and that definitely comes in against ANT (not that I even play much these days).
Don't play Healing Salve. If you truly want a card for this, try
Mindbreak Trap.
i would agree, if worries you too much turn 1 kill , mindbreak trap its way to go, i thought about that too if my local meta becomes more ANT oriented, since not only (possibly) prevents turn 1 kill but give us more resilience after a massacre or DoN.
but talking about elfs, i´m going to play BOM this weekend and i was in MKM madrid too a saw a lot of elves players, if i consider a bit more slots for this matchups wich are the best cards for this? chalice prove to be good enough to stick with a 1 of ?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Looks like someone made Eldrazi Displacer work:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378056#online
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
That was me. Only drew it once against burn in that league, 3/3 body was fine and the ability never came up. No idea if it is any good still
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Ah that's a shame. How was your sideboard and what were your matches?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I remember one time I was on Goblins & lead with Cavern on Merfolk because I thought my opponent was on belcher. Turns out he was on BUG Delver! Good times! ;)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bosque
For what it's worth, we wreck ANT all the time. Yes sometimes, we just lose, but most times we get a turn 2 to mess with them.
Yeah for what it's worth I disagree with this. Main deck we have 1 card they care about and post board yes we get a ton of pieces and sweet stuff but they have massacre which lots of times you just can't play around, and sometimes dread of night or bounce cards like echoing truth. I'm not saying I've never won or that I don't know what I'm doing in the matchup, I just disagree with your assessment that we "wreck" ANT. I think overall they're favored
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Fair enough, I didn't mean to imply it's a 12 Post vs Miracles type of situation because it isn't. I meant that sometimes we get the cards that make life difficult for them and it works, but sometimes they get a good hand and we get nothing and they win. For what it's worth I've won at least 2/3 of my games against ANT though, and I'm pretty terrible at this game.
In addition to Thalia, Revoker is a perfectly relevant mainboard card in the match (on LED), so is Flickerwisp out of vial on their turn to disable land for a turn, many folks are running Vryn Wingmare in the main, and Port and Wasteland can give you time to attack and win. Post board you're right they get more hate that can ruin us.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
We feel helpless when they have T2 wins on the play, but they feel pretty helpless when they are on the draw g1 and have to face a T2 Thalia. The match-up is probably about 50-50, and the dice roll is *very* heavy for the aforementioned reasons.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
We feel helpless when they have T2 wins on the play, but they feel pretty helpless when they are on the draw g1 and have to face a T2 Thalia. The match-up is probably about 50-50, and the dice roll is *very* heavy for the aforementioned reasons.
In the dark? Sure it's 50-50, but if they know we're DnT then I think they're a little favored like 60-40. Even on the draw they just cabal therapy Thalia and we lose. Plus the odds we have t2 Thalia are not really that high. Game 1 is not our best game. We have a better shot g2 or G3 and even then I'm not overconfident. I'm not saying it's an awful matchup, but it's not one of the ones I'm happy to run into because much of the time it's just a question of "do they have it?"
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
It works the other way around too though - if you know they're on ANT g1, you don't keep Vial, SFM, Mom, StP, Port, Plains, Wasteland - a very balanced hand vs fair creature decks, and one that you'd blind keep. It is frustrating to lose matches where you had zero ability to interact and I think those losses 'feel worse' and you remember them. But for better or worse that's an accepted part of the format and it's not like Thalia+Wasteland doesn't create those situations for other people.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
It works the other way around too though - if you know they're on ANT g1, you don't keep Vial, SFM, Mom, StP, Port, Plains, Wasteland - a very balanced hand vs fair creature decks, and one that you'd blind keep. It is frustrating to lose matches where you had zero ability to interact and I think those losses 'feel worse' and you remember them. But for better or worse that's an accepted part of the format and it's not like Thalia+Wasteland doesn't create those situations for other people.
on the play against ANT this is a very keepable hand? plains->vial->start porting and vialing threats, wasteland them etc. ANT is good, but typically needs lands during their main phase to function and isnt drawing into many of them (16 in the main?) I'd snap keep this hand.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
It works the other way around too though - if you know they're on ANT g1, you don't keep Vial, SFM, Mom, StP, Port, Plains, Wasteland - a very balanced hand vs fair creature decks, and one that you'd blind keep. It is frustrating to lose matches where you had zero ability to interact and I think those losses 'feel worse' and you remember them. But for better or worse that's an accepted part of the format and it's not like Thalia+Wasteland doesn't create those situations for other people.
That's fair. You can't prepare for everything and of course advanced knowledge on what the opponent is playing is always positive. I think that if both players know what the other is playing ANT is favored, if both are in the dark they're favored, and if ANT is aware alone then they're favored. So I think most scenarios they're favored overall. Again I think it's winnable but not one of our "good" matchups. I think overall it's only slightly in their favor.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Colin
on the play against ANT this is a very keepable hand? plains->vial->start porting and vialing threats, wasteland them etc. ANT is good, but typically needs lands during their main phase to function and isnt drawing into many of them (16 in the main?) I'd snap keep this hand.
If you're porting then you have basically no clock unless you draw well, and your disruption in the meantime is limited to one land. If you're playing 4 Thalia 3 Revoker X Wingmare as the really relevant cards - you don't have a great chance at drawing into one of those within just 3-4 turns, but you have a fantastic chance at drawing into one w/ 6 new cards + scry + further draws. Plus a StP means you're already playing with a 6 card hand. The only appealing thing the hand has is a Vial and I would consider keeping only if they mulliganed.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
But I would be interested to hear if other people also disagreed, FWIW.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Also, for people playing Imperial Taxes, Recruiters count as +3 relevant draws for both keep and mull, but are somewhat better for the initial opening hand because there's a guaranteed Vial.
