Miracle Control

I'm not sure I agree with both of your assessments.

Entreat has historically been better vs BUG than the more aggressive Lightning Bolt strategies due to their higher curve giving more time to set it up properly, you can play the matchup a lot more proactively as you don't have to be concerned with any reach too, just what's on board.

VS Lightning Bolt decks, in my experience at least, you play it very differently to BUG by getting the board under control and the reach locked up with CB, just play to survive in the early game. In this context, when you're playing to get the game under control with CB, there will be windows to then land and protect a Mentor from a bolt, you can't do this with Entreat or VS BUG decks.

Given that, I think the opposite is true for this statement - 'Mentor was a lot worse in a meta that had cheap kill spells, and since the meta is shifting from that Mentor is better positioned now.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I'm not sure I agree with both of your assessments.

Entreat has historically been better vs BUG than the more aggressive Lightning Bolt strategies due to their higher curve giving more time to set it up properly, you can play the matchup a lot more proactively as you don't have to be concerned with any reach too, just what's on board.

VS Lightning Bolt decks, in my experience at least, you play it very differently to BUG by getting the board under control and the reach locked up with CB, just play to survive in the early game. In this context, when you're playing to get the game under control with CB, there will be windows to then land and protect a Mentor from a bolt, you can't do this with Entreat or VS BUG decks.

Given that, I think the opposite is true for this statement - 'Mentor was a lot worse in a meta that had cheap kill spells, and since the meta is shifting from that Mentor is better positioned now.'

---

I understand what you mean. Note that I'm evaluating a shell with Mentor+JTMS separate from that of Entreat shells, I think Entreat is better than both in the metagame that I presented, I'm simply describing a scenario where people are dropping bolts/blasts from their tempo shells and that this can be exploited via the combination of Mentor+JTMS in a shell that had not quite been explored as much in the past.

Entreat is KING in such a metagame, and I'm not arguing against that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minniehajj

I understand what you mean. Note that I'm evaluating a shell with Mentor+JTMS separate from that of Entreat shells, I think Entreat is better than both in the metagame that I presented, I'm simply describing a scenario where people are dropping bolts/blasts from their tempo shells and that this can be exploited via the combination of Mentor+JTMS in a shell that had not quite been explored as much in the past.

Entreat is KING in such a metagame, and I'm not arguing against that.

---

Fair enough. Though if BUG becomes a bigger part of the metagame I don't like Mentor + Jace as a 'shell'. Mentor suffers from being hit by Decay and Jace doesn't, to point out the obvious. You don't want half your threats dying to the premier removal spell, you want either all or none to be hit by it.

Alternatively, you can blank the decays by having Jace and Entreat as threats, which are much higher impact, but really are a very different plan altogether. This split of Mentor vs Jace/Entreat can be influenced a bit by how the format shakes up in the next week or two I guess.

Saying that, Jace is insane vs pretty much any BUG strategy and can be included on that justification alone. I'm a big fan of the 3-4 Mentor and no Jace lists, but I can see that changing.

You can't just do a straight swap from Mentor to Entreat. The land count and the cantrip count matter in this case. As with many different builds in Miracles, one small change can create a cascading effect resulting in many changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

You can't just do a straight swap from Mentor to Entreat. The land count and the cantrip count matter in this case. As with many different builds in Miracles, one small change can create a cascading effect resulting in many changes.

---

Of course, nobody suggested that. We were discussing win cons, deck philosophy and how they will play out vs other top tier decks. Fleshing out numbers is a lot more nuanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

You can't just do a straight swap from Mentor to Entreat. The land count and the cantrip count matter in this case. As with many different builds in Miracles, one small change can create a cascading effect resulting in many changes.

---

That's actually not true; In a 20L/w predict list, the mentors and entreats are pretty interchangeable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

That's actually not true; In a 20L/w predict list, the mentors and entreats are pretty interchangeable.

---

And that's the nuanced part of it, the rest of the deck built around the win cons will determine land count etc. I agree with you Quasim0ff.

Hei Guys

So we have some Infect Players in our Meta. I would like to know how do you board against them.. I think the Match up is fine after boarding but Preboard it's really hard sometimes:)

My List (Classic one)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Counterbalance
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Entreat the Angels

SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Blood Moon

What would you bring in? and Side out? (OTP and OTD)

I Side always out 2 Counterspells(Not sure about this on otp, but i think otd fluster is better and like 2 fows, 1 Jace, 1 Entreat 2-4 CB(I'm also not sure about how much CB's i should side out, because sometimes if a CB hit fast you can just win against infect..specially g1:P

Would be nice if anyone have some good advice:)

Greets Pascal

Blood moon is good against infect. They have 1 basic forest.

jup normally i don't play Blood Moon i just take them in because the Meta will probably change to a more BUG Based Decks.
I mean you can really take them out but i think it's sometimes kind of slow specially when they have noble Hierarch or the forest.(Good Infect Player are searching the Forest First)

Against infect I side out force and counterbalance and slow cards (jace, and some mentors). The matchup is a grind and you have to just snap+plow all their creatures while putting up some pressure.
Force is bad because it makes you lose the CA war. With so much removal, getting comboed is not much of a problem.
CB doest deal with 4/12 of their creatures and doesnt interact with the board. Its also a bit clunky.


Envoyé de mon SM-A500FU en utilisant Tapatalk

I never board out Mentor against infect.. He's pretty good sometimes. CB Is clunky but it can't get them:) So i think side out all 4 CB is wrong..I'm really not sure but it's nice to see other players opinion.

I cut all forces and counterbalances, as well as all jaces and then Mentor if I need to make more cuts.

I add all blasts, snapcasters, cliques, wear/tears as well as flusterstorm I have. I want to act like a jund deck post board, in that I just want to kill every single thing he has.

I would -4 force, -4 cb, -2 jace, -1 mentor for 3 blasts, 2 cliques, 2 flusterstorms, 2 w/t, 1 pyroclasm.

I don't like blood moon against them, but you might -1 mentor, +1 moon. They always fetch for their basic forest first, as that will let them cast both grip as well as hierach through b2b as well as moon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pdingo

Hei Guys

So we have some Infect Players in our Meta. I would like to know how do you board against them.. I think the Match up is fine after boarding but Preboard it's really hard sometimes:)

My List (Classic one)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Counterbalance
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Entreat the Angels

SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Blood Moon

What would you bring in? and Side out? (OTP and OTD)

I Side always out 2 Counterspells(Not sure about this on otp, but i think otd fluster is better and like 2 fows, 1 Jace, 1 Entreat 2-4 CB(I'm also not sure about how much CB's i should side out, because sometimes if a CB hit fast you can just win against infect..specially g1:P

Would be nice if anyone have some good advice:)

Greets Pascal

---

4 fow 2 jtms 2 cs 1 eta <--> 3 blast 3 fluster 2 wt 1 pyroclasm, maybe 1 cj 1 cb for 2 clique

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

4 fow 2 jtms 2 cs 1 eta <--> 3 blast 3 fluster 2 wt 1 pyroclasm, maybe 1 cj 1 cb for 2 clique

---

This is the most correct. There's like 50% of chance you'll eventually die to Nexus. You Need Flying blockers, in addition to wear//tear, in order to deal with Nexus. I would argue it's Still Not enough. You also want at least One non-basic hate to ensure that Nexus is Not the winning route for Infect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I cut all forces and counterbalances, as well as all jaces and then Mentor if I need to make more cuts.

I add all blasts, snapcasters, cliques, wear/tears as well as flusterstorm I have. I want to act like a jund deck post board, in that I just want to kill every single thing he has.

I would -4 force, -4 cb, -2 jace, -1 mentor for 3 blasts, 2 cliques, 2 flusterstorms, 2 w/t, 1 pyroclasm.

I don't like blood moon against them, but you might -1 mentor, +1 moon. They always fetch for their basic forest first, as that will let them cast both grip as well as hierach through b2b as well as moon.

---

This is pretty much how I SB, though I think I leave in some number of FoW because I would rather not die to an all-in BI. I also like to keep some number of CB since it does force them to have an answer, and revealing a Terminus is something that happens often enough.

I bring in:

+3 PBlast
+1 Blood Moon
+1 or 2 Wear // Tear
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 or 2 Mentor depending on how I feel that day

I currently have Meddling Mage in my SB but the last time I played against Infect I didn't so I don't know if I'd bring him in.

I'd take out:

-1 CJ
-2 Jace
-1 ETA
-2 or 3 FoW
-2 CB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

This is the most correct. There's like 50% of chance you'll eventually die to Nexus. You Need Flying blockers, in addition to wear//tear, in order to deal with Nexus. I would argue it's Still Not enough. You also want at least One non-basic hate to ensure that Nexus is Not the winning route for Infect.

---

I don't agree with this. The thing that kills you is not going into turn 5 and having spend all your ressources; This is also why I dislike having counterbalances in the deck. A fast counterbalance and no blindflips essentially does nothing.

I don't agree with land hate, at all.

(Also; Please refrain from "this is the most correct" and other absolutes. It discourages discussion.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I don't agree with land hate, at all.

---

I've won a couple Infect matches because they didn't expect the Moon (or couldn't fetch around it because their hand had too much blue). It's definitely more potent that it may seem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I've won a couple Infect matches because they didn't expect the Moon (or couldn't fetch around it because their hand had too much blue). It's definitely more potent that it may seem.

---

I've also won with Counterbalance against Eldrazi because I had Jace, Terminus, Force of top and they didn't have cavern....

It's slow, plays into daze/pierce, makes the rest of our plan pretty poor (Jund them into the ground - That get's SIGNIFICANTLY harder without shuffles). You shouldn't strugle from turn 5 onwards if your cards interact reasonable with their creatures.

I would be much more inclined to play b2b over Moon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I've won a couple Infect matches because they didn't expect the Moon (or couldn't fetch around it because their hand had too much blue). It's definitely more potent that it may seem.

---

Chiming in from the Infect side, I'm already bringing in Grips for those of you who leave in CB. As such, I'm generally thrilled to see you pay 3 at sorcery speed for an enchantment that I'm definitely going to have an answer for. If it were the only artifact/enchantment you played, then there might be some merit to it being unexpected. But as a common card in Miracles sideboards, I don't think you're catching anyone by surprise with this.

The rare corner cases where you get to lock someone out are when you're both slamming the Moon early and when your opponent doesn't have access to a basic forest or Hierarch. Think about how often you're going to meet both of those incredibly unlikely requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I don't agree with this. The thing that kills you is not going into turn 5 and having spend all your ressources; This is also why I dislike having counterbalances in the deck. A fast counterbalance and no blindflips essentially does nothing.

I don't agree with land hate, at all.

(Also; Please refrain from "this is the most correct" and other absolutes. It discourages discussion.)

---

Understood, I'll keep that in mind.

I am not sure if I made my comment clear in the last post. I like AnziD's SB plan against Infect a lot, which is similar to your SB plan anyhow. The problem is that, even if you kept an opening hand, full of counter and removal, i.e. flusterstorm and stp, it's inevitable for Infect to chip away your infect total, 1 or 2 infect counter(s) at a time, while you unload your removal. Once you have accumulated 6~7 infect and stopped any Invigorate/pump attempts, that's when Infect starts going for the Nexus kill. You might have StP/Terminus 1 or 2 Nexus before that, but there's always more, perhaps via Crop Rotation route.

From my experience, Infect players simply don't play around FtA, they just don't. They probably have Krosan Grip for CB, and happen to kill B2B, and they still use Noble to generate Grip mana anyway. My best blow-out was to:
1. Use Clique and others to deplete Infect player's counter magic.
2. Win the counter war and killed 3 Nexus via FtA at once.

Going by Cadei's list here

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21755&iddeck=167246

How would you board against lands?

For me i will board in 2 Wear/Tear, 1 Extraction, 2 Clique

I am not so sure what to board out though, any advice on this? I am looking at - 2 FOW, -2 counterspell, - 1 Council's Judgement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1987

Going by Cadei's list here

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21755&iddeck=167246

How would you board against lands?

For me i will board in 2 Wear/Tear, 1 Extraction, 2 Clique

I am not so sure what to board out though, any advice on this? I am looking at - 2 FOW, -2 counterspell, - 1 Council's Judgement

---

-4 Terminus, -2 counterspell, +3 clique, +2 wear, +1 surgical.

Terminus is mostly poor postboard, CJ are needed for the chalices they might play. Counterspell is mostly just poor, in that the spells they play are Spheres/chalices/trackers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

-4 Terminus, -2 counterspell, +3 clique, +2 wear, +1 surgical.

Terminus is mostly poor postboard, CJ are needed for the chalices they might play. Counterspell is mostly just poor, in that the spells they play are Spheres/chalices/trackers.

---

Thanks for the prompt reply. Hmm i guess siding out terminus is logical just that there is this guy at my LGS that plays slaughter games and targeted my STP once before.

Pardon another noobish question of mine, let's say you are playing against delver, there is nothing on their board but lands. You only have a top in play, with a few lands and a fetch. You see STP and a couple of lands. Would you in this case take the plow for some sort of insurance coverage or would you guys fetch for a win con against them, be it jace, entreat or counterbalance. Perhaps i am not such a good player yet, so my decision would be to keep the plow as an insurance for anything else they might cast. Just want to listen to veteran miracles players over here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1987

Thanks for the prompt reply. Hmm i guess siding out terminus is logical just that there is this guy at my LGS that plays slaughter games and targeted my STP once before.

Pardon another noobish question of mine, let's say you are playing against delver, there is nothing on their board but lands. You only have a top in play, with a few lands and a fetch. You see STP and a couple of lands. Would you in this case take the plow for some sort of insurance coverage or would you guys fetch for a win con against them, be it jace, entreat or counterbalance. Perhaps i am not such a good player yet, so my decision would be to keep the plow as an insurance for anything else they might cast. Just want to listen to veteran miracles players over here.

---

Depends on life total, handsize etc. ;).
Take the sword, there is nothing wrong about it.
Look again and if crap is following, fetch.

Do you have a fetch in play, and are otherwise not close to die?

if Yes to both, I'd look for snapcaster/cb.

*also if your land opponent sideboards into Slaughter Games, don't mind him. That is not something representive for any other person than him, and that card is just bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Do you have a fetch in play, and are otherwise not close to die?

if Yes to both, I'd look for snapcaster/cb.

*also if your land opponent sideboards into Slaughter Games, don't mind him. That is not something representive for any other person than him, and that card is just bad.

---

Agreed with all of this. There's definitely a lot of times were draw the "insurance" STP is right. I would be less likely to do that if I was against a delver deck with things like TNN or Lily/Jace. Against delver, anytime your not getting attacked you are winning, even if you are doing nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Agreed with all of this. There's definitely a lot of times were draw the "insurance" STP is right. I would be less likely to do that if I was against a delver deck with things like TNN or Lily/Jace. Against delver, anytime your not getting attacked you are winning, even if you are doing nothing.

---

despite this being a great counterargument, i think i would take the stp. its still a very high quality card that answers delver/drs/dudes. i'd be kicking myself later if i dont have the removal spell for their lethal attacker knowing that i shuffled away a removal spell that could have been. if i already have a plow in hand 'im more inclined to be aggressive with the fetch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1987

lands boarding

---

re: lands w cadei's list; rather than give you a "take these out put these in" i think its a good idea to discuss postboard expectations. this way your sideboarding can be more fluid, and therefore more accurate

recently lands decks have adopted ghost quarter in lieu of rishadan port. the upside is that in certain matchups, ghost quarter is basically strip mine. ghost quarter also hits basics, which gives lands "stronger" inevitability vs miracles. and, ghost quarter operates without the requirement of additional lands, unlike port with its activation cost of a colorless mana. changing from port to quarter shifts how the miracles player approaches postboard games vs lands. also, looking at the sideboard of popular gq lists, we can expect some quantity of cards like krosan grip, tireless tracker, and chalice of the void. (you might also run into noise like sphere, but in theory sphere should make the gq plan worse as it makes loam harder to cast).

so in context of miracles, the first point to observe is that the gq lands list relies a bit more on loam against miracles than the older port list. why? on average a miracles deck will feature 5 to 7 basics. this means for ghost quarter to be an effective form of mana denial (and not a shitty ramp card for the opponent), it needs to be used many, many times. to use it many times, you either need to have multiple copies (unlikely) or you need to find a way to recursively buy back the quarter. life from the loam satisfies the latter requirement at the cost of 1G. what does this mean for us as the miracles player? it means that stopping loam is about equivalent to stopping the lands player's mana denial plan, which allows us to assemble our own plan of top/cb/jace/mentor/etc. additionally, because the first gq or two are so bad at denying us of mana, it means that in the early turns we will still have access to the same amount of mana should they choose to ghost quarter us (assuming we have basics and they dont waste us). this is critical in that it allows us to cast our three drops and four drops on curve.

second point to observe is their sideboard plan: cotv, grip, and tracker. krosan grip is pretty standard tech, and to combat this you just have to be aware that it exists. this means float the 3 on top when you have cb/top, activate your top main phase so they can't grip it and deny you the info, etc. one line of play i love is extracting grip from the rg lands gy so that my future counterbalances are immune to destruction. chalice is an interesting hate piece from the lands side. while it does turn off their gambles and crop rotations, it is far more harmful to us as it shuts down our vision/cantrips/top and swords to plowshares. if chalice stays in play too long, the lands player will be able to take advantage of our clunky, unfiltrated draws and win. how do we beat chalice? like we always do. counter it. bring in artifact hate. destroy it. and lastly, tireless tracker. while the card seems anemic at first (as most creatures do against us), it is important to not be blindsided. secretly, this card is very good. it lets the loam player fight our card advantage and jund us out, while also making our STPs worse against marit lage by overloading the total # of targets. how do we beat this? respect the card and dont board out too much removal.

in short, this boils down to "stop loam and answer their threats". however, the specific nature of their threats dictates how we board. i propose the following:

- 2 terminus
- 1 ponder
- 1 fow
- 1 counterspell/fow
+2 clique
+2 w/t
+1 surgical

here's why:

-2 terminus : typically we are taught to board out all 4 terminus. would it surprise you if i told you cadei usually boards only 1 copy out? the reason to board out terminus is that plow is "enough" to answer however many marit lages they may have. sometimes terminus might be bad if they have a wasteland or port to mess up our mana (ie in response to a top activation), but in general it is not unacceptable to have some copies in your deck postboard. the card very cleanly answers tireless tracker and marit lage and keeping in 2 as opposed to 0 gives your plowshares some breathing room

-1 ponder : if we are expecting 4 chalice of the void, it is okay to cut down on 1 ponder. ponder if probably one our worse 1 drops and shaving on ponder makes us slightly more immune to chalice. cadei's list is a little land light though, so if you cut a ponder, please be a bit warier of your opening 7.

-1 counterspell/fow : counterspell can be too slow at times, force can be too expensive at times. understand that the cards still have merit, as countering a hate piece, a tracker, or a gamble/crop rotation searching for boseiju is often very very worth it. i will say that counterspell is a card directly affected by the transition from port to quarters. usually counterspell is bad against lands as rishadan port means you aren't casting counterspell until turn 3 or even later. however, given that ghost quarters keeps you at two mana on turn 2, counterspell can be cast earlier and is thus more relevant in stopping the 2 mana and 3 mana threats the new lands decks have. another card that improves (but by a lot less than counterspell improves) from the mana denial switch is council's judgment. now we actually have white man untapped to cast our judgments! be careful though, as this could potentially expose plains to ghost quarters, which is far worse than having plains ported.

+2 clique : remember how we want interaction that stops loam? draw step clique, ship your loam to the bottom does exactly that. plus the fact that it is a flash threat means that we can very nicely tempo our opponent out. also, give that we are more likely to have 3 mana on turn 3 (since gq will replace whatever it destroys), clique's expensive cost is less of a downside.

+2 wear/tear : chalice. and the upside of hitting other potential cards (sphere, choke, needle, library, song of the dryads)

+1 surgical : the most efficient way to remove loam and all future loams from the game. surgical extraction also has the upside of hitting specific lands or hate cards from their graveyard, like krosan grip or dark depths.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

so in context of miracles, the first point to observe is that the gq lands list relies a bit more on loam against miracles than the older port list. why? on average a miracles deck will feature 5 to 7 basics. this means for ghost quarter to be an effective form of mana denial (and not a shitty ramp card for the opponent), it needs to be used many, many times.

---

This was an interesting read. Just wanted to point out though that the quarters wont be aimed at all 5-7 basics, but mainly at the 2 plains (and dependant of the board the 3-4 tundras or even fetches) to destroy all white sources and deny swords, mentor and entreat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kravkenov

You can take a look at this list : http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12681&d=273532&f=LE

2 Tundra and 2 Volcanic :)

---

I went with that build, but don't know how I feel with only mentors as my wincon. (and LGS only had 1 predict, waiting for 2nd to come in the mail, running another Preordain in the meantime)

Hi guys, sorry if this has been already discussed, but i couldn't find it inside this 3d. Basically, i need an advice to how to board OUT against BUG decks, expecially the Cascade version.

At the moment i'm playing a list close to BBD's one, just -1 EE +1 CJ main deck, and -2 Disenchant -1 Surgical -1 Needle +1 Fluster +2 Wear/Tear +1 Pyroblast in the SB.
I know that i want to bring in 2 Wear/Tear, 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Vendilion Cliques. The 2 Moons would be nice too, but i'm still not sure about them. The problem is when it comes to cutting cards: i would go -4 FoW for sure, but as BBD i like to keep CB in. I can see cutting one EE since we are bringing in 3 Pyroblast as a way to interact with TNN on the stack and we have Terminus to "kill" a resolved one, but I still have too many cards I need to cut to make room.

Can you help me? :smile:

Hi Sheik80,

before we speak about what should in I would like to encourage you to board Blood Moons in as they are the only "and now I win this game" card we have against them. Beside playing Moat in the Sideboard.

I'm not sure if you need 2 Wear/Tear against them as there targets are limited and there are nothing dangerous we can destroy with them beside Hatepieces from the sideboard, therefore I would probably only board one. Boarding out FoW is the right choice imho because we can't afford the card-disadvantage in such a grinding battle of resources. Beside that I usually side out EE, 1 Jace and Counterspell(s). Everything else depends on their deck. If they are more creature-heavy I would cut a mentor. If they are more spell-heavy I would cut a StP, not easy to say.

Please also consider other people advise on this point as I'm usually playing at least one Entreat in main which is awesome against them and am unsure if cutting Mentor isn't against your gameplan.

Wow thanks for the comprehensive reply Anzid, will definitely give your sb advice a shot if I encounter them.

So I was at my LGS today, played against an altered version of rug delver. Boy was it a pain to play against. Don't think the newer versions play 4 goyfs now. They cut it down to 2 and play 2 tnn. Game 1 I terminus the mongoose but died to the tnn. Game 2, he had stifles for my ee and terminus, killed me with a mongoose.

Seeing that they are down to only 4 delver, 2 goyfs, would it be wise to board out some plows for pyroblast to keep those pesky blue spells at bay? He always seem to have the pierce, stifle at the right time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1987

Wow thanks for the comprehensive reply Anzid, will definitely give your sb advice a shot if I encounter them.

So I was at my LGS today, played against an altered version of rug delver. Boy was it a pain to play against. Don't think the newer versions play 4 goyfs now. They cut it down to 2 and play 2 tnn. Game 1 I terminus the mongoose but died to the tnn. Game 2, he had stifles for my ee and terminus, killed me with a mongoose.

Seeing that they are down to only 4 delver, 2 goyfs, would it be wise to board out some plows for pyroblast to keep those pesky blue spells at bay? He always seem to have the pierce, stifle at the right time

---

My friend James and I tested this matchup (it's a RUG delver variant popularized by Jonathan Alexander) for about 6 hours on Sunday after GP Louisville, and I ended up winning out on the head to head, because I started to adapt to what the game plan became.

Basically, I board differently vs this variant than I do vs any other:
Keep in forces, board in all blasts, take out plows. Bring in Mentors/EE/Fluster as well. Treat the matchup like a Mirror or a control mirror and understand that the cards that matter the most are Winter Orb, etc. Plow can only kill delver, as they board out goyf to facilitate 3x Winter Orbs and sideboard counterspells. I would recommend giving this sideboard strategy a shot, and know when to pick your spots with your removal, as you can pace your removal to their threats fairly easily if you know that Plow does nothing and Blasts are of paramount importance.

End record ended up being 13-12 in my favor (1-1 Pre, not counted in this total, 13 Post) but I had lost like 7 in a row at first and rallied back and won the last few in a row once I started to realize what was happening and started boarding in the above way. The matchup is tough, but challenging and very rewarding once you realize that you have to approach the matchup so differently compared to every other delver deck.

Hello guys, I have a gameplay situation for you to evaluate. I'd like to know your opinion.

It's game 2 agains Reid Duke's BUG, we are on the play and you kept a hand with Tundra, Plains, Island, Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Pyroblast, Ponder. List is really similar to BBD's, just 20 lands and the 4th Mentor.

Do you play Ponder turn 1? I played Ponder (maybe it was already a mistake) and saw Tundra, Disenchant, Vendilion Clique. Do you shuffle or do you keep them? If you keep them how do you order them?

Thanks a lot!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Hello guys, I have a gameplay situation for you to evaluate. I'd like to know your opinion.

It's game 2 agains Reid Duke's BUG, we are on the play and you kept a hand with Tundra, Plains, Island, Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Pyroblast, Ponder. List is really similar to BBD's, just 20 lands and the 4th Mentor.

Do you play Ponder turn 1? I played Ponder (maybe it was already a mistake) and saw Tundra, Disenchant, Vendilion Clique. Do you shuffle or do you keep them? If you keep them how do you order them?

Thanks a lot!

---

keep, isl, ponder, shuffle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ingo

This was an interesting read. Just wanted to point out though that the quarters wont be aimed at all 5-7 basics, but mainly at the 2 plains (and dependant of the board the 3-4 tundras or even fetches) to destroy all white sources and deny swords, mentor and entreat.

---

yeah the ideal target is a white source, but we minimize that by just hiding our plains. if they don't use the ghost quarter, then its still fantastic because we get to develop our board on curve\

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike1977

Wow thanks for the comprehensive reply Anzid, will definitely give your sb advice a shot if I encounter them.

---

yeah just beware that this is not steadfast by any means and that you should be flexible based on what you see. ex - if you surgical and see only 2 tireless tracker instead of 4, then going into the next game (if there is one) you could have 1 terminus left in the deck instead of 2, bring back a cs or a fow, etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

keep, isl, ponder, shuffle

---

Agree with this, you have to factor what you're looking for with that Ponder. You're likely looking for JTMS/Mentor/Blood Moon etc, something POWERFUL and proactive to use your defensive cards towards. That Ponder didn't find any of those cards, so it's a shuffle.

EDIT: Anu corrected me, you're also looking for a red source or a brainstorm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

+1 surgical : the most efficient way to remove loam and all future loams from the game. surgical extraction also has the upside of hitting specific lands or hate cards from their graveyard, like krosan grip or dark depths.

---

thoughts on only 1 surgical in the sideboard in the current meta? containment priest is usually too slow vs BR reanimator, and does nothing vs lands. but, as you describe, surgical is one of the best cards vs lands. i've made room for 3x surgical in my list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

krosan grip is pretty standard tech, and to combat this you just have to be aware that it exists. this means float the 3 on top when you have cb/top

---

unless i am missing an obvious line of play, this creates an interesting game theory situation that i haven't seen explored in any forum post or article.

consider the following simplified situation:
-it's the lands player's EOT and the lands player (the active player) his priority
-both players know that the miracles player has a 3 CMC card in their top 3 cards (ofc, the miracles player knows where it is)

(a) if the lands player kgrips now, then they are doing so hoping the miracles player doesn't have the 3 on top.
(b) else if the lands player passes priority, then:

(i) if the 3 CMC card is on top, the miracles player has activate top their upkeep if they want to avoid drawing the 3 CMC card. if the miracles player choses to activates top in their upkeep, the lands player has a similar situation to (b)
(ii) if the 3 CMC card isn't on top, the miracles player doesn't _need_ to do anything.

(1) on the miracles player's upkeep they can pass priority
(2) ... or bluff by spinning top

what do you all think the right plays are here by both sides?

for starters, if we simplify matters by assuming the miracles player has infinite mana, it feels like bluffing by spinning top during the lands player's EOT but still leaving the 3 CMC card on top is the right play since it gives the lands player the opportunity to fall into our trap.

but what about the very basic situation of it being the miracles player's upkeep and the 3 CMC card is currently on top. do they activate top now or pass priority?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

krosan grip is pretty standard tech, and to combat this you just have to be aware that it exists. this means... activate your top main phase so they can't grip it and deny you the info, etc.

---

this is subtle, but a good point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

*also if your land opponent sideboards into Slaughter Games, don't mind him. That is not something representive for any other person than him, and that card is just bad.

---

I don't agree with this "Because this isn't a common board plan, don't worry about it" mentality. It's still a match to be won or lost. Of course, you can't just change up your entire board to play around SG, but you should be accounting for it whenever you can. Same goes for more-obscure tech, for example Winter Orb. Let's face it, Winter RUG was a trash idea and didn't do what it was designed to (that is, beat our decks). But we should still be cognizant of Winter Orb being a possible SB plan out of RUG Delver decks in the future now because if we get matched up against a guy running this obscure hate we still have to win that round if we want to place high in the tournament. I'm not going to take the L and hope next round matches me up against a "stock" list.