[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

My current list:
Lands:

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures:
0cmc
1 Dryad Arbor

1cmc
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

2cmc
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze

3cmc
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Reclamation Sage

4cmc
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Academy Rector
1 Siege Rhino

5cmc
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

6cmc
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Artefacts:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Birthing Pod

Enchantments:
1 Blood Moon
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Instant+Sorcery:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords To plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith


SB:
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 orzhov Pontiff

2 Pithing needle
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Surgical Extraction

Any sugestions? I rly fighting with space... i want to add reccuring nightmare in(idk what to remove- library or Blood moon put to SB?)
and one more land could be helpful :/ .. but the space... THE SPACE!!!

Fierce Empath. I'm happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Fierce Empath. I'm happy.

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Yeah, but only Tasigur as a target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

You presumably have at least Phyrexian Tower as an instant speed sacrifice outlet. You can't get the same Bloodghast back twice with it though, because you don't have the lands ETB separately - you get two triggers for each bloodghast, but if the first brings it back then saccing it wont' let the other trigger get it back again, since the Ghast in your bin is a new object now.

Intent looks very good in the deck you posted, but you don't have any powerful cards to search up with it, might be worth including a singleton with more impact than Mentor/Braids for matchups where they aren't as relevant. Then again the two are fine a lot of the time.

Maybe play some hardlock silver bullets in the sideboard? It's not like they would be hard to find in that list with 4 intent 4 top. Things like Contamination and Nether Void.

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Geez, Contamination + Mentor and Top just sounds nasty. I may just have to sleeve this up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Yeah, but only Tasigur as a target.

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Beggars can't be choosers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nargoron

My current list:

Any sugestions? I rly fighting with space... i want to add reccuring nightmare in(idk what to remove- library or Blood moon put to SB?)
and one more land could be helpful :/ .. but the space... THE SPACE!!!

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You are missing some basic lands I think.

Here are some food for thoughts:

1) Recruiter is not needed
2) Blood moon is not needed MB
3) Thragtusk screams for a real CMC 6 (Grave Titan is the best in my opinion)
4) I like Empath but not with only 1 target. Nonetheless I like the combo.
5) Tasigur asks for a CMC 7. Really.
6) You should think about Enlightened Tutor as a 1 or 2 ofs, MD. Cut a POD for it.
7) Rector is not needed. There is no real powerful enchantment you have access to. ET is cheaper and faster. With Rector you want enchantment > 4 CMC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Back safely from Charlotte. I'm pretty wiped, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time writing a big post at the moment -- just going to hit a couple of salient points and I'll move on from there tomorrow.

-) Events did not go well. I set a very modest goal for myself: I wanted to go 4-4, netting 80 prize tickets, which would be good enough for the S2 GP shirt, which I very, very badly want (and which nobody has listed on ebay). I only managed a combined 3-5, unfortunately. Some of this was due to bad variance (I won legit 1 die roll out of 8), and some of this was due to matchups: I played vs Sneak/Show, Elves, Bogles?, RUG Delver; then vs Grixis Delver, TES, Maverick with Dark Depths, and 4c Delver. I beat RUG and 4c Delvers, but got nutted on by Grixis. Bogles was my other win, but that was actually only because he scooped me: he came out swinging for 7 on turn 2 or turn 3, and then threatened lethal on turn 4, followed by actual lethal on turn 5 -- all unkillable by my spot removal.

Brief descriptions of the others:

Sneak Show won the die roll, Tundra pass. I assume Miracles, Therapy on Brainstorm into the untapped Tundra after he hesitates on resolution. I hit one, and see 2x Ancient Tomb, Emrakul, and a Show and Tell. He obviously turn 2 Emrakuls me, and I just as obviously die. I get game 2 off of him, but then lose to my own stupidity in game 3 because I didn't get Island + Swamp, and instead got Island + Island off of a Vet when playing around Blood Moon.

Elves won the die roll and killed me on turn 3 after going Cradle, tap for 4, play Cradle, tap for 4, Craterhoof, kill you. I'd Therapy'd away a Visionary blind on t1, and then called Natural Order on the flashback only to see the Hoof in hand. Game two I have Thoughtseize into Therapy, and he turn 2 NO's for Progenitus anyway.

RUG was an absolutely insane matchup, full details on that tomorrow. Was somebody who was there with Craig Wescoe, much better than your average RUG player. Winning this match (which is normally easy for us) actually vindicated this side event to me. I was fine going 2-2 just because it let me play this guy.

TES was a super fun and friendly match, my opponent and I got along great (and share fine taste in German foils). I won game 1 and lost both games 2 and 3 -- figure that one out. Some of this is likely because I mulled to 5 in g3.

Maverick Knighted out a Merit Lage and killed me with it. Had I won the die roll, my Deed would have been fast enough to prevent Merit Lage from hitting, and then Rhino would've cleaned up. But, alas, I was one turn too slow.

I think that touches on everything briefly.

I also met two Nic Fit players -- one on Saturday night, who apparently was aware of the Salvation thread but not us, so I directed him here. He was on BUG Pod. The other reads the thread, but I think he said he hasn't posted yet. Hung out with him for most of Sunday, and gave him some pointers here and there. He had some pretty insane Miracles matches in the first side event, which I'm hoping he'll post about at some point. I know he was 2-1 in the second side going into the last round, not sure how he made out, though.

Tomorrow I'll be posting a small book's worth of post. I learned a lot of valuable things in advance of Columbus, and I spent most of the day Saturday and most of the ride home today thinktanking about the various versions and their specific strengths and weaknesses moving towards GP Columbus. Lots of thoughts for everyone coming tomorrow.

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Sorry I didn't post this sooner; I was pretty wiped after getting home from Charlotte myself. I'm the second player Arianrhod mentioned in his post. I'll do the best I can to report what all happened. My overall record in the two Legacy Challenges was 4-3-1, which is pretty okay for my first proper outing with the deck.

List for Reference

4 veteran explorer
1 deathrite shaman
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 scavenging ooze
1 tireless tracker
1 eternal witness
1 meren of clan nel toth
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 sorin, grim nemesis
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
2 painful truths
4 cabal therapy
3 path to exile
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
1 karakas
1 volrath's stronghold
1 phyrexian tower
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath

2 pithing needle
1 deathrite shaman
2 surgical extraction
3 thoughtseize
1 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2 golgari charm
1 qasali pridemage
1 glissa, the traitor

Round 1 - Miracles with maindeck Thoughtseize

I opened with a Therapy on Brainstorm and see Cascade Bluff, Flooded Strand, Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, Counterbalance, Swamp, and Lightning Bolt. I settle in for the long haul, and as bonus fun this is the first time I've played against Miracles with Nic Fit. Judging by my life pad, it looks like he Snap-Counterspelled something at some point and started hitting me. After a few turns of that I resolved a Rhino which must have been Council's Judgement'd or Terminus'd. I believe this was the game that I resolved a Sorin, which promptly dealt a damage to my opponent, and then got Venser'd back to my hand and then Clique'd away. It seemed like I resolved another Rhino, got my opponent down to 2, and got murdered by a Clique after the Rhino got answered. I think I could have won but I misplayed a little bit due to my opponent's quick pace. What happened was, my opponent's board was Clique+Jace. He Jace'd my Rhino back to my hand, played another Jace, and then Jace'd his Clique back to his hand so he could Clique my Rhino away. My misplay was not using the Abrupt Decay to murder his Clique. It all happened pretty fast but I should have told him to back up.

Sideboard -
-3 Vet, -4 Therapy, -1 Meren, -1 Sigarda, -1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Path to Exile; +2 Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Qasali Pridemage

Game 2 it looks like I either kept a sketchy hand or just got immediately locked under something. This may have been when I played a Needle and named Top, and then proceeded to die to Jace. All I have for life totals is me going to 18, him going to 18, and then him going to 12. Pretty sure Jace upticked until I didn't have any cards left.

Round 2 - Miracles

This match was longer, and more interesting. In game 1, my opponent was on the play, and went Island, Pass. I follow up with Swamp, Cabal Therapy, he Brainstorms, tanks for a couple minutes, and then scoops. Have no idea what he is on, I just run my deck back to gather information.

Game 2 was similar to Game 2 the first match, and I finally found out what he was on. Pretty sure that I groan. It looks like I either got beat down by some dorky creature or just had literally all my fetchlands. This is the other time the Needle goof up may have happened, I can't remember if it was round 1 or round 2. I remember getting Jace ultimated with no cards in hand and dying.

Sideboard -
Same as Above

Game 3 was the longest part of this match, and was honestly a lot of fun even though I lost to another stupid misplay. After I turn 1 Needle on Jace some early game Clique beats from him, I manage to resolve a Rhino and get immediately Plowed. He continues to hit me with Clique, I resolve another Rhino, and hit him down to 8. I think I remove the Clique somewhere along the line. This Rhino gets Judgemented, my opponent fetches down to 6, and I resolve a third Rhino. This one gets Plowed again and the board is mostly clear. I have a Top and some fetchlands, my opponent is at 3, and I find a stack of Scooze, GSZ, and Rhino. I immediately slam the Rhino to the top, draw it, and cast it. The big misplay here was not reordering the Scooze and the GSZ; if I had I would have won. In response to the Rhino trigger, my opponent Plows his own Snapcaster, and goes to 1. On his turn, my opponent deals with my Needle, and fateseals my Top to the bottom. I believe his is hellbent or down to just 1 card at this point. I look at my deck and realize my misplay, draw and cast Scooze for my turn, and pass, rather upset with myself. I got too excited. My opponent fateseals the GSZ away, we both draw-go for a couple turns, I choose to not put a Deed into play for some reason, he makes 5 angels, and kills me.

Round 3 - The Bye

Took this opportunity to take a walk and clear my head after those screwups.

Round 4 - Oops, All Spells

He wins the die roll and Turn 1's me Game 1.

Sideboard -
-1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Meren, -1 Sigarda, -1 Sorin, -2 Painful Truths, and I'm not remembering what else. Some number of Vets and Therapies maybe.; +2 Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Deathrite Shaman, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Golgari Charm, +3 Thoughtseize

Game 2 I Have Surgical in my opener and rip his hand apart. Rhino cleans things up.

Game 3 I mulligan to 4, and due to poor understanding of the combo use an Abrupt Decay at the wrong point. He combos out around turn 3 and I lose. Not sure if I was supposed to keep mulliganing until I found Surgical or not.

I definitely took my licks in this event, but I learned a lot.

Second Event

Round 1 - Imperial Painter

Got paired up against one of the guys I drove to Charlotte with. We go back and forth for a while, with me Rhinoing him and having answers for his combo pieces. At one point he almost gets me, but I play a Sorin and kill his Goblin Welder. The turn before I get to start looping Decay with Eternal Witness and Meren, he plays Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and then exiles a Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal to grind me out.

Sideboard -
-1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Sigarda, -1 Sorin, -2 Painful Truths, -1 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Vet, -1 Therapy; +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Needle, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Qasali Pridemage

Game 2 I open with fetch a Bayou to Therapy on Blood Moon (Needed Bayou to guarantee Vet next turn). I do not hit, but see a Painter's Servant. Next turn I flashback Therapy on Painter's Servant, Surgical those, and then play Needle on Grindstone. He throws some things at me with Jaya Ballard, which I Path or Decay and he scoops.

Game 3, we both durdle with Top for a few turns while I hit him with a Meren I believe. He only has a Great Furnace for lands. I eventually find a Needle with my Top, and promptly Needle Top to hopefully push him out of the game. I should have done a trick with my Top to bury it so that I don't have a useless brick. Eventually, we end up going to time, and on turn 4 of turns he has Painter's Servant, Grindstone, and 2 open mana. He tanks for a couple minutes to try and figure out if there is a Welder trick he can do but there isn't and we draw.

Round 2 - Maverick with Dark Depths

This was the guy that Arianrhod played against later. It was apparently his first experience with Nic Fit. He resolves a Stoneforge and get's SoFI, which I Therapy away and see Jitte, BSkull, Mom, and a GSZ. I Rhino him, he Batterskulls with the SFM, then casts Jitte, equips Jitte, and starts hitting me for 5 with noble Heirarch. I cast another Rhino and Therapy his last card in hand at this point, which was GSZ. He hits me down to 2, and his boardstate is Dryad Arbor, SFM, Germ with Batterskull and Jitte (4 Counters), and 2 Moms. The only way for me to not die is to Deed his board away. On his endstep I Top and see GSZ, which I draw for turn and begin to dig. I spun to check my third card, GSZ'd for 1, spun again, sac'd the Vet to Phyrexian Tower, spun, and finally found it. Drew a card with Top, cast Deed, Deeded for 2. Hit him for 8 with Rhinos. He cast Scryb Ranger, equips the BSkull to it, and passes. I top into Sorin, nuke his Faerie, and Rhinos plus Sigarda clean things up.

Sideboard -
-1 Deathrite Shaman, -2 Therapy, -1 Vet ;+1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Glissa the Traitor, +2 Pithing Needle

Game 2 I'm feeling greedy, so when I see Forest, Vet, Vet, Top, Path, GSZ, GSZ, I snap it off. He opens with Needle on top and grimace. I topdeck Volrath's Stronghold, so at least I have a second land drop. Forest into Vet into pass turn. Over the next couple turns he casts and SFM and a Qasali, which ends up carrying SoFI into battle. I snap off the block and smile. On my turn, I topdeck a fetchland, GSZ for 3 to get Tireless Tracker, play the fetch and pass. He picks up the card and reads it. On his turn, he again decides to rumble with his Pridemage and I again block with my other Vet. That plus the fetch grants me four clues, which I crack one of on his end step. On my turn, I Path his Pridemage, GSZ for Sigarda, and proceed to stomp him.

Round 3 - BUG Depths

Game 1 my opponent leads with Misty and passes. It turned out that he kept a onelander with a Mox Diamond and Loam, so he get's to go crazy if he gets any second land. He never does, ends up discarding a Decay and a Force, and dies to me beating him with 2 Vets and a Scooze. From what I saw, I put him on Shardless but wasn't sure so I again just ran it back.

Game 2, he has a pretty quick draw. At one point I Therapy him, but he Marit Lage's me to death.

Sideboard -
-1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Sorin, -1 Meren, -1 Sigarda, -1 Vet; +2 Needle, +1 DRS, +2 Surgical

Game 3, I Therapy him and have an active Deathrite which helps me power out a Rhino. He durdles with a Top and a Sylvan Library for a few turns, and eventually almost has me. He Snapcasters during combat just to prevent some damage, but I decay it before blocks and put him to 7. I cast Scooze and pass. He has a Stage on board and a Crop Rotation in hand, and Wastes my white source. On my turn I eat his Snapcaster and swing for exactly lethal, he crop rotates out a Marit Lage, I Path it before combat with my DRS, eating his Dark Depths. He dies and we talk about his game 1 keep.

Round 4 - Death and Taxes

I think I sat next to this guy the round previous, and if nothing else he seems to know the matchup. He Plows my turn 1 Vet (didn't have a Therapy and didn't know what he was on) and over the next few turns he Revokers Top, casts a Thalia, and a few Serra Avengers. I believe there was a SFM at some point. I use a few spot removal spells to survive until I find a Deed, clear his board, and then Rhino him down.

Sideboard -
-2 Painful Truths, -1 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Meren; +1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Glissa, the Traitor, +2 Pithing Needle

Game 2 I keep four lands, Deed, Rhino, Sigarda. He opens with SFM for Sword of War and Peace, and then Council's Judgements my Deed. I take some big hits for a couple turns, until I find a second Deed after he extends a bit more. I only have the mana to Deed for 2, but this does deal with everything but the Sword. He casts another SFM, equips the Sword and passes. I topdeck Decay like a boss and swing with a Rhino. He blocks, hoping I'm bluffing, and it turns out I'm not. Decay kills Sword, Rhino eats SFM. I Rhino him again after he Plows the first one. He Fiend Hunter's this one. I have another Rhino in my hand, topdeck a Path, hit him to 6 with Sigarda, Path his Fiend Hunter, cast my third Rhino. He offers his hand and kinda slams my hand into the table.

I had a blast during this first outing. The only match I didn't really enjoy was against Oops, but that is kinda how it goes. Both matches against Miracles felt really close. And this deck is just as much fun to pilot against a variety of decks as it was to pilot against my few friends that have Legacy decks. I still have a lot of reps to get in to actually be competent at the deck, so hopefully there are some more events within driving distance from me. The sideboarding that I have written here is mostly me working backwards from my list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

You presumably have at least Phyrexian Tower as an instant speed sacrifice outlet. You can't get the same Bloodghast back twice with it though, because you don't have the lands ETB separately - you get two triggers for each bloodghast, but if the first brings it back then saccing it wont' let the other trigger get it back again, since the Ghast in your bin is a new object now.

Intent looks very good in the deck you posted, but you don't have any powerful cards to search up with it, might be worth including a singleton with more impact than Mentor/Braids for matchups where they aren't as relevant. Then again the two are fine a lot of the time.

Maybe play some hardlock silver bullets in the sideboard? It's not like they would be hard to find in that list with 4 intent 4 top. Things like Contamination and Nether Void.

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Good call on the Bloodghast rule, something is telling me I want some form of extra value though.

Contamination sounds interesting. Nether Void sadly is out of my price range so that will have to be relegated to proxy night only (then again, this whole build will start there in the first place).

Thinking double Phyrexian Tower in this.

Edit: So this build would be Smokestack or Braids, thoughts on which?
Braids - Hits the opponent, comes online faster. Loses to more removal, can only hit 1 card/turn
Smokestack - Dodges most removal, can make them sacrifice 2/turn (or more), takes a full turn to come online, triggers Mentor

This deck could pretty easily sustain 1 sacrifice/turn, but then again so can Miracles. To really get ahead rather than just slow down the opponent I think you need to be hitting 2 cards/turn. Not so sure that's sustainable though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

Good call on the Bloodghast rule, something is telling me I want some form of extra value though.

Contamination sounds interesting. Nether Void sadly is out of my price range so that will have to be relegated to proxy night only (then again, this whole build will start there in the first place).

Thinking double Phyrexian Tower in this.

Edit: So this build would be Smokestack or Braids, thoughts on which?
Braids - Hits the opponent, comes online faster. Loses to more removal, can only hit 1 card/turn
Smokestack - Dodges most removal, can make them sacrifice 2/turn (or more), takes a full turn to come online, triggers Mentor

This deck could pretty easily sustain 1 sacrifice/turn, but then again so can Miracles. To really get ahead rather than just slow down the opponent I think you need to be hitting 2 cards/turn. Not so sure that's sustainable though.

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Wonder if these ideas better belong in a "Contamination" new deck idea thread. Card seems like it would beat most decks if you've got fuel to keep it going. Vet Explorer seems like a great idea to pair with it but definitely seems like a rogue nic fit idea.

This is what I'm mulling over:

20
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Ophiomancer
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

20
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Contamination

21
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Cavern of Souls

Most creatures are human except for Deathrite Shaman, but there is a combined 16 sources for casting him turn 1. He is the tool to allow you to use nonblack mana after Contamination hits. Bloodghast I feel really needs to be paired with Liliana but I didn't see how to fit her in. Ophiomancer is just amazing for both Contamination and Braids - and protects you from Eldrazi dudes as well as goyf. It definitely looks weird to see Vet + Braids...but it might just work out. If they have none or few basics, you can play out stuff much faster and Braids is fine.

Could also just cut white entirely and have Bloodghast, Liliana, Garruk Relentless all available. Even cut Braids and focus exclusively on Contamination if you want - I envision very very few decks that can win against it. Ratchet Bomb can be handled with DRS + Abrupt Decay. Leave Braids in the side to come in if needed. This is janky.

18
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodghast
4 Ophiomancer
2 Tireless Tracker(?)
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

5
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil

17
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top(?)
2 Contamination

21
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Tracker might could be replaced by Mardu Strike Leader for aggression/contamination fuel, Dark Confidant for card advantage, or Bitterblossom for fuel that isn't cut off by Toxic Deluge. The Top might could be replaced by Dark Confidants. Innocent Blood also a great tool here if we are foregoing white.

With Pod and Rector there is a nice combo you can do: Sac Rector into Pod gets you two cards, you et Corpse Connoisseur and Recurring Nightmare, this allows you to reanimate any creature in your deck. I think Ashen Rider fits nicely, because it works well so with Nightmare and is not completely uncastable on its own.

This is how I think a more controllish Pod version of deck could look like. The goal against Aggro/Midrange does not change, you try to outvalue them. Pod with Magister of Worth is really good to stabilize. With Pod on table and a board without creatures, there is not much most midrange decks can do to win the long game, especially in G1. First GSZ you cast afterwards should end the game in your favor.
Against Miracles, with Pod and Rector, you have more heavy impact cards that don't care about StP/Terminus and actually threaten them.


2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Plains


4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Birthing Pod
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Recycle
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Academy Rector
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Magister of Worth

1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Ashen Rider

SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pithing Needle (Abeyance?)
SB: 1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Shriekmaw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Wonder if these ideas better belong in a "Contamination" new deck idea thread. Card seems like it would beat most decks if you've got fuel to keep it going. Vet Explorer seems like a great idea to pair with it but definitely seems like a rogue nic fit idea.

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It's just part of the Smokestack idea in my opinion which we've been talking about for a couple pages.

Quote:

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Could also just cut white entirely and have Bloodghast, Liliana, Garruk Relentless all available. Even cut Braids and focus exclusively on Contamination if you want - I envision very very few decks that can win against it. Ratchet Bomb can be handled with DRS + Abrupt Decay. Leave Braids in the side to come in if needed. This is janky.

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Maybe, but I think Mentor/Top is such a powerful combo and we meet all the requirements to play it. We see huge portions of our deck and have 4 tops. I don't think I want to stray too far from that core idea since it's 3 and 4 drops we can accelerate to and then fuel. I think I want that in my deck regardless of the build.

Feeding Contamination might be what we're looking for, it stops the colorless needs of Eldrazi, it shuts down Miracles. It seems good against almost everyone actually. Bitterblossom into Contamination seems like a real powerful curve. I think I like the idea of Rector as a tutor for it too but I'm pretty unfamiliar with Rector builds, by the time I switched over from BUG to Junk Rhino was a thing and pushed it out.

@Jolly-Gee
Hey there, I was your D&T opponent from that final round. I wanted to share with you my report for that round from over on MtG:Salvation.

"Vs Siege Rhino Nic Fit
I swords my opponent's Veteran Explorer, and my opponent does not make any plays on turns 2, 3, and 5. My opponent plays a Siege Rhino on turn 4, and I Swords it as well. I have beaten my opponent down to five life. My opponent plays a Sigarda and passes. I attack with a Mirran Crusader through the Sigarda, threatening lethal with any two attackers connecting. I make the alpha strike the next turn, and my opponent casts an Abrupt Decay as well as a Path to Exile on my board. My opponent gets a third creature by blocking with Sigarda. #blowout The only way I did not win that turn was if my opponent had double removal spell. My opponent opted not to destroy my Vial or remove any of my creatures all game, so I felt like it was safe. It was not.

I keep the next hand on the strength of a Council's Judgment, Mom, and Jitte. I can extend into the board early and Council's Judgment away a Pernicious Deed when my opponent taps out for it. Sure enough, it happens, and I continue my beatdown train. My opponent taps out again the next turn for another deed, and I get crushed by the stream of Rhinos that come afterwords."

Another user commented the following:

"For what it's worth, your Rhino NicFit opponent sounds like he played phenomenally. It takes a ton of patience to make the play that he made."

I replied:

"I originally thought that my opponent was just playing badly by not playing out a removal spell. In retrospect, I realized that if he rips a Deed off the top, he gets like a 7 for one and then has two pieces of removal leftover to clean everything else up. Alternatively, he may have been in such a bad spot that the only way he can win is IF I alpha, assuming he has nothing. I wish I would have talked to him more at the time to figure that out. I might need to spend $50 to put that deck together so that I can get a better feel for the other side of the matchup. I hadn't played against Nic Fit since Siege Rhino was printed, and that definitely changes the matchup significantly."

Luckily, I happened to be at SCG tonight to buy the last few cards I needed for the deck, and I stumbled on this post. Now I have my answer!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@Jolly-Gee
Hey there, I was your D&T opponent from that final round. I wanted to share with you my report for that round from over on MtG:Salvation.

"Vs Siege Rhino Nic Fit
I swords my opponent's Veteran Explorer, and my opponent does not make any plays on turns 2, 3, and 5. My opponent plays a Siege Rhino on turn 4, and I Swords it as well. I have beaten my opponent down to five life. My opponent plays a Sigarda and passes. I attack with a Mirran Crusader through the Sigarda, threatening lethal with any two attackers connecting. I make the alpha strike the next turn, and my opponent casts an Abrupt Decay as well as a Path to Exile on my board. My opponent gets a third creature by blocking with Sigarda. #blowout The only way I did not win that turn was if my opponent had double removal spell. My opponent opted not to destroy my Vial or remove any of my creatures all game, so I felt like it was safe. It was not.

I keep the next hand on the strength of a Council's Judgment, Mom, and Jitte. I can extend into the board early and Council's Judgment away a Pernicious Deed when my opponent taps out for it. Sure enough, it happens, and I continue my beatdown train. My opponent taps out again the next turn for another deed, and I get crushed by the stream of Rhinos that come afterwords."

Another user commented the following:

"For what it's worth, your Rhino NicFit opponent sounds like he played phenomenally. It takes a ton of patience to make the play that he made."

I replied:

"I originally thought that my opponent was just playing badly by not playing out a removal spell. In retrospect, I realized that if he rips a Deed off the top, he gets like a 7 for one and then has two pieces of removal leftover to clean everything else up. Alternatively, he may have been in such a bad spot that the only way he can win is IF I alpha, assuming he has nothing. I wish I would have talked to him more at the time to figure that out. I might need to spend $50 to put that deck together so that I can get a better feel for the other side of the matchup. I hadn't played against Nic Fit since Siege Rhino was printed, and that definitely changes the matchup significantly."

Luckily, I happened to be at SCG tonight to buy the last few cards I needed for the deck, and I stumbled on this post. Now I have my answer!

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In the games I've played against D&T, I always got really punished for being aggressive with my removal spells so I was playing with that in mind. The matchup is not a cakewalk, and to be honest I normally do not see the line of destroying Vial. I think your lines were all very good and I just managed to draw the right cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jolly-Gee

In the games I've played against D&T, I always got really punished for being aggressive with my removal spells so I was playing with that in mind. The matchup is not a cakewalk, and to be honest I normally do not see the line of destroying Vial. I think your lines were all very good and I just managed to draw the right cards.

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After all, life is a resource you can use to make your removal better. It's something people tend to gloss over - they see a threat and want it answered rather than wait a turn to see if they can work around it. Well done, good sir! And thank you for the report!

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) Recruiter is not needed

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Maybe, but he can be rly helpful tutor -> example: you can pod only for 3cmc but desperatly need gaddock? or this sort of situations...
on the one hand give your tutor ability, on the other hand his red mana cost could be problem to hardcast

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Originally Posted by Ralf

2) Blood moon is not needed MB

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Yep, moved to SB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

3) Thragtusk screams for a real CMC 6 (Grave Titan is the best in my opinion)

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Cose of Empath .. yea grave titan is in

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

5) Tasigur asks for a CMC 7. Really.

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You have to .... cast tasigur and have pod, thats luxury you dont have always. And stuck with 7cmc creature in hand is not the best

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

6) You should think about Enlightened Tutor as a 1 or 2 ofs, MD. Cut a POD for it.

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maybe as next SB slot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

7) Rector is not needed. There is no real powerful enchantment you have access to. ET is cheaper and faster. With Rector you want enchantment > 4 CMC.

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Rector is what makes this deck spicy for me...
in the best scenario: some enchantment creature with some helpful ability so you can cast it via pod or via rector alone. I'm going to find something

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

It's just part of the Smokestack idea in my opinion which we've been talking about for a couple pages.

Maybe, but I think Mentor/Top is such a powerful combo and we meet all the requirements to play it. We see huge portions of our deck and have 4 tops. I don't think I want to stray too far from that core idea since it's 3 and 4 drops we can accelerate to and then fuel. I think I want that in my deck regardless of the build.

Feeding Contamination might be what we're looking for, it stops the colorless needs of Eldrazi, it shuts down Miracles. It seems good against almost everyone actually. Bitterblossom into Contamination seems like a real powerful curve. I think I like the idea of Rector as a tutor for it too but I'm pretty unfamiliar with Rector builds, by the time I switched over from BUG to Junk Rhino was a thing and pushed it out.

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Thinking about Contamination, I don't think we can afford to run it main but it's potentially a sideboard version of Blood Moon that does some good work.

Miracles: Shuts the deck down, if it isn't countered they have zero outs short of killing you without casting another spell (lethal on board or something).

Eldrazi: Can still play lock pieces, Dismember, and beat down with mimics, but can't make any fast threats and has no way of removing it.

DnT: Aether Vial is their only solution - they can potentially do something like Flickerwisp it to let them cast Swords, and so on. It's okay, but feels pretty slow, especially since we'd need to combine it with a Deed to avoid just getting beaten to death by their existing creatures.

Shardless: If they have Deathrite or much board presence it's pretty bad. Otherwise it helps quite a lot. Ophiomancer is awesome, especially since it gives us resistance to Liliana ruining our day by killing our sac fodder.

Storm / Painter / Dredge / Fast combo: doesn't do anything. SnT might be the exception, where it could be pretty good.

Burn: Might be good enough, but paying life for Bitterblossom might be bad.

Lands: They can still naturally draw Depths/Stage, but they don't have anything else - they can Waste/Port, but not cast Loam.

IMO If we want to play Contamination, we want more sources of G/W mana than just Deathrite. Artifact mana is an option (Selesnya Signet?) or mana creatures like Birds of Paradise / Noble Heirarch. We could go back in on the sacrifice plan and run Phyrexian Altar, but we'd need a large supply of dudes to eat to feed it.

If we do run Contamination main, we probably also want some removal for opposing Deathrite Shamans which doesn't require us to have our own DRS to cast it. Currently thinking Disfigure or Dismember. If it's in the side, it wouldn't come in against DRS decks so I don't think we need to be so worried.

Birthing Pod is also activatable with only B mana, might be worth looking into it as a way to convert a board like Ophiomancer + Contamination into a win (pod Snake into DRS, go off from there).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Thinking about Contamination, I don't think we can afford to run it main but it's potentially a sideboard version of Blood Moon that does some good work.


Lands: They can still naturally draw Depths/Stage, but they don't have anything else - they can Waste/Port, but not cast Loam.

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Don't forget that lands has access to mox diamond.

To me it seems that running Braids and Explorer in the same deck is kind of awful to begin with. Explorer counts on them being unable to use the extra lands and then Braids gives them a use for these lands.

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Originally Posted by The_Dingo

Don't forget that lands has access to mox diamond.

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You're right, that's a pretty major issue actually. I guess the only decks Contamination is really an 'I win' card against are Miracles and Eldrazi. Not that that's necessarily not enough, but it certainly leans me towards a sideboard rather than a maindeck slot.

@Jolly-Gee

Cool, thanks once again for your point of view.

Is your list "stock" for the rhino build? I'm trying to figure out where to go as a starting point. The build I was playing last night had Dryad Arbor, but after Deeding that away a couple of times, I'm not sure that I want it in the deck. Tireless Tracker seems like good tech, I'll throw that in my list. How have Sorin and Meren performed? I usually see lists with Elsepth or Garruk over those two. Also, what is the Glissa in the sideboard for? Is that Eldrazi tech?