[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

bummer. 4 preordain?

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Not to be a contrarian (well, maybe a bit), but why would you want more than two Preordains? I almost always 'board out at least one, and always, always, always both against fast combo and prison/taxing decks. Feels like the worst card in the orthodox list to me, and I'll go out on a limb and say I prefer having a Chrome Mox and a Rain of Filth to having more of them.

Apropos of very little, I know it's a well-trodden subject, but I'm still getting owned by D&T even after trying all kinds of different approaches to the matchup. I'm about ready to junk Fatal Push and Echoing Truth (or maybe Petition) for 3x Dread of Night just because I don't see any reason not to bulk up on dedicated hate. I'll concede that it might be rotten luck (I've pulled out some wins against decks that are terrible for us lately, namely Eldrazi, BReanimator, and Goblin Charbelcher), so I know that I'm not a total incompetent. But I hate writing off losses to bad luck. If other people are winning the matchup easily, there must be something I'm doing wrong. Lately I've been trying a 'board plan of -3 Duress, -2 Preordain, -1 Past in Flames, -1 Rain of Filth; +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Fatal Push, +1 Empty the Warrens, +1 Dark Petition, +1 Chrome Mox (to make 2 total). Starting to feel like +3 Dread would be better than the Pushes and the Petition. Still feel like I'm getting a lot of terrible openers and mulligans, and surprisingly, my land-base doesn't feel like it's weak there, even with only 14. In case it matters, I'm on a purely Grixis plan now with 14 lands. Might want to bring back a fifteenth in the 'board, but so far that hasn't really been a problem.

I'd appreciate PMs if people don't want to take the thread back to this topic. Thanks in advance!

You play more than 2 preordains when you don't want that rain of filth or chrome mox that you mentioned. It was more common in the past.

Agreed on Preordains, I'm playing one and it is easily my least favorite card in the deck. The problem is, the versatility is what you need for that spot, because otherwise you have a tutor when you want mana and vice versa, and Preordain can kinda be both because it is a cantrip, it's just the worst one.

As for the DnT question, I've been doing okay with just the pushes/Chains/Empties, but one thing I find helps is just aggressively mulliganing. At some level, we only get one mostly-unmolested turn to do something to them before it just becomes a total shitshow of thalias and canonists, so I try to just use that turn to kill them as much as possible.

For instance, a hand of like:

Usea
Fetch
BS
Ponder
IT
LP
Probe

Is something I would normally keep, but I always ship it against DnT in hopes of getting something like:

Land
DR
LED
IT
Probe
LP

where you can just go for a naked Ad Nauseam turn one, especially if you're on the draw. It's not a guarantee, but they just can't really do anything about it, and you're still high percentage to get what you need and just kill them. Trying to fight them after they get a lock piece down is just miserable, so I just try to do my best TES impression. I also play one Chrome Mox main and one in the board, which helps.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

As for the DnT question, I've been doing okay with just the pushes/Chains/Empties, but one thing I find helps is just aggressively mulliganing. At some level, we only get one mostly-unmolested turn to do something to them before it just becomes a total shitshow of thalias and canonists, so I try to just use that turn to kill them as much as possible.

For instance, a hand of like:

Usea
Fetch
BS
Ponder
IT
LP
Probe

Is something I would normally keep, but I always ship it against DnT in hopes of getting something like:

Land
DR
LED
IT
Probe
LP

where you can just go for a naked Ad Nauseam turn one, especially if you're on the draw. It's not a guarantee, but they just can't really do anything about it, and you're still high percentage to get what you need and just kill them. Trying to fight them after they get a lock piece down is just miserable, so I just try to do my best TES impression. I also play one Chrome Mox main and one in the board, which helps.

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That first hand can see an additional 8 cards on your first turn and you already have a tutor plus 2 land one of which is a fetch! No way I'd mull that and bet on 6 being better. Also, ANT will always be worse than TES if your plan is to do your best TES impression. Sometimes DnT will have it all and you can stumble but I never feel like I have to rush the MU. With a semi decent SB it's fine to bide your time.

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Originally Posted by ScottW

That first hand can see an additional 8 cards on your first turn and you already have a tutor plus 2 land one of which is a fetch! No way I'd mull that and bet on 6 being better. Also, ANT will always be worse than TES if your plan is to do your best TES impression. Sometimes DnT will have it all and you can stumble but I never feel like I have to rush the MU. With a semi decent SB it's fine to bide your time.

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Hand no. 1 is amazing on the play. It's OK on the draw, but seeing an extra card and having a better petal-brainstorm seems very worthwhile.

Assuming we're postboard (this is how you would know your opponent is on dnt), it feels like hand 2 is a better empty hand, with strong potential to turn into a pif hand or a possible ad nauseam hand, both of which are contingent on finding more mana. Goblins are safer than ad nauseam, with the exception being that you're on the draw, you brick on a playable card from the probe and your draw step, and see stoneforge (this is 12 goblins only). Any playable card nets you 14, which should be deterministic. One the play, 12 should be fine

Yeah, it's not that that hand is totally unplayable, it's more that a hand with multiple cantrips takes some time to develop, and that's not really what I want in this matchup. It's possible I could have come up with a better borderline example, but the point is I don't want to spend much time sculpting my hand, because it gets harder once the lock pieces come down. My experience is just that once they get to two mana, battling through it is just so much harder, especially because they have such a diversity of possible hate.

As for the other comment, I'm surprised that you feel Empty is safer than Ad Nauseam - given the choice, I'd go for the latter almost every time. The goblins always just seem so fragile to me, whereas tendrils just kills them. it's definitely possible I'm undervaluing them, though.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

As for the other comment, I'm surprised that you feel Empty is safer than Ad Nauseam - given the choice, I'd go for the latter almost every time. The goblins always just seem so fragile to me, whereas tendrils just kills them. it's definitely possible I'm undervaluing them, though.

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Against DnT, the only threat they have that's relevant is batterskull if you get goblins early. Jitte is too slow. 12 Goblins on the play is a deterministic win, it just takes a couple of turns. The exception here will be if they randomly have something like ratchet bomb, although that's unlikely

So how are people feeling about Grixis Control at the moment? I've only had to play against it the once, but it felt pretty miserable, with counterspells and the best abuse of the probe/therapy/pyro engine I've had to deal with

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Originally Posted by fangzie

So how are people feeling about Grixis Control at the moment? I've only had to play against it the once, but it felt pretty miserable, with counterspells and the best abuse of the probe/therapy/pyro engine I've had to deal with

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I've been playing Grixis Control lately and I've lost twice in a row to storm, so it's not unwinnable for storm. But I'll admit those felt like flukes and I think the matchup is in Grixis's favor. I'm off storm because there are *so* many UB decks with discard and countermagic running around. They're all playing bolt so sideboarding Bob doesn't work and it's not like we can sideboard Top either.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I've been playing Grixis Control lately and I've lost twice in a row to storm, so it's not unwinnable for storm. But I'll admit those felt like flukes and I think the matchup is in Grixis's favor. I'm off storm because there are *so* many UB decks with discard and countermagic running around. They're all playing bolt so sideboarding Bob doesn't work and it's not like we can sideboard Top either.

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I remember Adam Prosak used to run Ignorant Bliss when the meta was heavy on Hymns...probably not viable tech anymore, but you could try it :P

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Originally Posted by FZA

I remember Adam Prosak used to run Ignorant Bliss when the meta was heavy on Hymns...probably not viable tech anymore, but you could try it :P

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Yeah I bought some after his storm primer and tried it. Never liked it. Holding up two mana, one of them red, against those decks was always super hard.

There were a few 5-0s a while back with Night's Whisper, which seemed interesting, but when I played against Hymn BUG Delver it didn't seem better than just trying to go under them with Empty. It might be better vs Pile and Grixis Control though. I wanted to try Tragic Lesson, trying to play the land the way Gush plays in vintage, but I think the 3 mana starting cost is just too high.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

Yeah I bought some after his storm primer and tried it. Never liked it. Holding up two mana, one of them red, against those decks was always super hard.

There were a few 5-0s a while back with Night's Whisper, which seemed interesting, but when I played against Hymn BUG Delver it didn't seem better than just trying to go under them with Empty. It might be better vs Pile and Grixis Control though. I wanted to try Tragic Lesson, trying to play the land the way Gush plays in vintage, but I think the 3 mana starting cost is just too high.

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Yeah, I don't think it's particularly viable, just kinda sweet.

Tragic Lesson is...interesting, to say the least. But I agree the initial cost might be a bit steep, even if you can recover a mana by replaying a land.

There are other options to recover card advantage against grindy decks...I've seen people try Jace VP (though I'm not sure why you'd run it over Bob), Ancestral Vision, Phyrexian Arena. Likely none of these cards are worth it though, and you're probably better off just going for an Empty plan or trying to sculpt a Past in Flames kill.

Do you feel like Pile is an unfavorable matchup for Storm? Having played that matchup from the Pile side, it felt pretty even...Pile has lots of disruption of course but with no real clock my Storm opponents were often able to assemble enough resources to go off through said disruption. I'm sure a straight Grixis deck with Pyro + Therapy would be much tougher for Storm to beat.

I know Wilson Hunter over at the Brainstorm Show is a big advocate of Storm actually being favored against grindy blue decks like Pile...I'd recommend checking out their (somewhat) recent episode on Storm here: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...-storm-reborn/

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Originally Posted by FZA

Do you feel like Pile is an unfavorable matchup for Storm? Having played that matchup from the Pile side, it felt pretty even...Pile has lots of disruption of course but with no real clock my Storm opponents were often able to assemble enough resources to go off through said disruption. I'm sure a straight Grixis deck with Pyro + Therapy would be much tougher for Storm to beat.

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I can't speak for Jeff, but I don't find Pile anywhere near as tough. It depends a little, if they're on the hymn version and can get a couple of early hymns in, it'll be hard to recover, but generally it's fine. Non hymn versions, I think I'm overall positive against. I just feel like they sometimes struggle to find enough relevant cards against us

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Originally Posted by fangzie

I can't speak for Jeff, but I don't find Pile anywhere near as tough. It depends a little, if they're on the hymn version and can get a couple of early hymns in, it'll be hard to recover, but generally it's fine. Non hymn versions, I think I'm overall positive against. I just feel like they sometimes struggle to find enough relevant cards against us

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Yeah Pile is definitely better than Delver, but sometimes they just play a turn 2 Leovold and you're staring at a handful of cantrips and want to stab yourself. Sideboarding against that is miserable because there's nothing that answers Leovold that I actually want to bring in for the matchup.

I have listened to the Brainstorm Show's episode, and I even sleeved up their exact list for a few weeks, but didn't have the same success he seemed to be having. My local shop has 4 or 5 Grixis Delver pilots and several people playing an assortment of midrange leo decks with countermagic and discard, and I just got crushed by all of them. I'd go underneath with empty and they'd untap and play 3 creatures and out last my goblins, I'd try to sculpt the perfect hand and they'd destroy me with discard. Just doesn't feel like a good matchup. Wilson is objectively better at magic than I am, so if he's having success with it I'm excited for him, but I haven't been able to translate that to my own success.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

Sideboarding against that is miserable because there's nothing that answers Leovold that I actually want to bring in for the matchup.

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Fortunately, I'm still on the green splash, so while I don't love decay in this matchup, it is handy for answering random nonsense that might turn up, while also being a clean answer for one of R&D's worst recent cock-ups

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I've been playing Grixis Control lately and I've lost twice in a row to storm, so it's not unwinnable for storm. But I'll admit those felt like flukes and I think the matchup is in Grixis's favor. I'm off storm because there are *so* many UB decks with discard and countermagic running around. They're all playing bolt so sideboarding Bob doesn't work and it's not like we can sideboard Top either.

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Side nights whisper, its faster and better than bob (bob=crap) ^^

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Originally Posted by fangzie

Fortunately, I'm still on the green splash, so while I don't love decay in this matchup, it is handy for answering random nonsense that might turn up, while also being a clean answer for one of R&D's worst recent cock-ups

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Yeah I guess that's the call. I just hate having permanent hate in my board vs Delver. They've got discard and countermagic I need to deal with, diluting my deck with something that answers permanents feels awful.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Side nights whisper, its faster and better than bob (bob=crap) ^^

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I always liked Bob vs Miracles, but never against the lightning bolt or Liliana of the Veil decks. I could see NW being good enough to sideboard. Maybe I'll try that next time.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

Yeah I guess that's the call. I just hate having permanent hate in my board vs Delver. They've got discard and countermagic I need to deal with, diluting my deck with something that answers permanents feels awful.

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How can they win without having creatures?

I went 5-0 yesterday running surfin's list but swapped the bloodstained for Misty to have better access to my island. List is good, never bothered with the empty plan even against delver and such. They all board in sweepers anyways. I played against grixis tempo, jund, elves, grixis bigger tempo and something else that I forget.

I sided in the ground seal a bunch against drs decks and surgical decks almost always taking out preordain. Only saw ground seal once, didn't make a difference. Couldn't figure out when I'd ever want xantid anymore.

Dark pet was good, not sure if I like it better then grim tutor. Floating 7 Mana to cast a tutor in the face of spell Pierce is steep. Also I played against lay of the void decks twice. And casting a 5 Mana tutor hurts in those games. I sided out the sixth tutor a fair amount and ran with 5 trying to hit early adn kills in those games.

Abrupt decay is still awesome for the annoying permanents but I never thought to bring in more then 2.

Anybody else think we're favourites against the fair tempo decks?

Edit:

I just ran another league set, played against grixis , pox, eldrazi, bug manipulate fate, and elves and went 4-1 with a grim tutor list and adn in the sb (same as surfin just swap tutors and add a cabal therapy, and remove xantid for adn). Eldrazi is huge, I just got back into magic a few days ago and this was my first taste against this deck, mimic into 4/4 into 5/5 haste and I died both games. How are people playing that matchup? As for grim vs dark pet, one time I wished it was dark pet (against eldrazi), twice I was happy it was grim tutor as I was able to play through dazes without fear, and the rest of the time I was neutral. On a side note people are making mistakes with which card to discard against us quite often. PS ground seal is actually really good.

I have never undestrand why someone liked bob. Bob replaces itself next turn and created advantage in 2 turns. And in worst case scario it changed for a dead removal spell.

Night whisper does for the same cost the same as 2 turns of bob not lettig opp use theyr removal and being awesome in a pif loop turn while bob is dead.