[DTB] Vial Goblins

I personally don't like hate in form of permenents against Survival, simple because they effectively deal with it (Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip). Therefore: I don't like Leyline and Needle.

WIth Nature's claim/Krosan Grip you won't completey shut their decks down (unless you are up against Ooze Survival, which heavily relies on SotF) because GW and UG both have a rather well-working aggro component. Therefore: don't aim at their graveyard or at their Survival.

I was testing UG and GW a lot with 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Lightning Bolt, 4 Gempalm Incinerator 1 Stingscourger and 4 Wastes/3 Ports to aim for their mana and it worked out quite good. Therefore: Removal is most effective!

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Originally Posted by guedax

do you think Leyline of the Void is effective against survival?

I found extirpate nice against it but really non synergic with lotv

so how do you side against it?
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinésie?
no perish?
thanks

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Agains UGMadness, I sided +3 Knesis, +3 Needle, +3 Claim, -4 Vial,-1 Gempalm,-1Chieftain,-1 Prospector, -3MWM... so there was not even room for gravehate, and I'd not bring in Extirpate even if I was running it.

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Gravehate and Perish are just bad against ugmadness. If you run green, suggest to go with the sideboard I quoted.

Unlike Gobbolord, I like Needles against it. It does not win the game, but gets you 2-3 turns to do so...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I personally don't like hate in form of permenents against Survival, simple because they effectively deal with it (Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip). Therefore: I don't like Leyline and Needle.

WIth Nature's claim/Krosan Grip you won't completey shut their decks down (unless you are up against Ooze Survival, which heavily relies on SotF) because GW and UG both have a rather well-working aggro component. Therefore: don't aim at their graveyard or at their Survival.

I was testing UG and GW a lot with 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Lightning Bolt, 4 Gempalm Incinerator 1 Stingscourger and 4 Wastes/3 Ports to aim for their mana and it worked out quite good. Therefore: Removal is most effective!

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Based on your removal, it looks like you are running a mono-red version GoboLord. What does your main and side look like? My build seems clunky but then, I am running 2 Chieftain. I still see E-plagues once in a while.

On on Survival, I find that mana denial is the most effective way to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Based on your removal, it looks like you are running a mono-red version GoboLord. What does your main and side look like? My build seems clunky but then, I am running 2 Chieftain. I still see E-plagues once in a while.

On on Survival, I find that mana denial is the most effective way to deal with them.

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//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

//Flex [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector

3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Chieftain

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Manadenial is effective agains Surv. I counted removal as means of mandeinal here (Quirion Ranger, Birds, Noble Hierarch)

When is it a good time to use Stingscourger? I was running 3 Gempalm/3 Stingscourger as my removal but that was way before VV's day. I was thinking of leaving 1 Stingscourger but I cant justify it. Outside decks that cheat big things into play, what are they used for.

And I know this has been discussed here for a long time, but I prefer Thorn of Amethyst over Chalice of the Void. The reason is you can also use Thorn against control. I guess it all depends on the meta and how competent combo players are in your meta.

Probably the best time to use Stingscourger is when there's a horny Iona locking you (sting casted via Vial). There're a few situations that bouncing something should help you. Maybe against Zoo, boucing a Goyf or a Grim Lavamancer should add some tempo to your clock. But it's a suboptimal card now, with all those Vengevines flying arround (no joke, lol).

If your meta requires a bouncer, just add 1 (maybe 2) maindeck and have fun.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

When is it a good time to use Stingscourger? I was running 3 Gempalm/3 Stingscourger as my removal but that was way before VV's day. I was thinking of leaving 1 Stingscourger but I cant justify it. Outside decks that cheat big things into play, what are they used for.

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stingers not only were used to bounce iona when reanimator was introduced, it can still be used to bounce emrakul right now. But it was first introduced to bounce Zoo's pesky 2/3 and 3/3 on turn 2 so that lackey could connect. Where gempalm couldn't finish, stinger succeeded.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

And I know this has been discussed here for a long time, but I prefer Thorn of Amethyst over Chalice of the Void. The reason is you can also use Thorn against control. I guess it all depends on the meta and how competent combo players are in your meta.

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People have argued that Thorn of Amethyst is strong in more match ups, but after you play goblins enough, you will realize that goblins don't need to board against most control decks because most control decks are too slow to slow down goblins. The Rishadan Ports will suffice to slow down control decks. Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

The reason why I like chalice over thorn is because chalice does not dilute the goblin game plan where goblins can keep up the pressure while not wasting tempo (thorn takes up your turn 2). I hope this helped.

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Originally Posted by jin

stingers not only were used to bounce iona when reanimator was introduced, it can still be used to bounce emrakul right now. But it was first introduced to bounce Zoo's pesky 2/3 and 3/3 on turn 2 so that lackey could connect. Where gempalm couldn't finish, stinger succeeded.

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I like them especially against Aggro Loam and The Rock

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Originally Posted by jin

People have argued that Thorn of Amethyst is strong in more match ups, but after you play goblins enough, you will realize that goblins don't need to board against most control decks because most control decks are too slow to slow down goblins. The Rishadan Ports will suffice to slow down control decks. Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

The reason why I like chalice over thorn is because chalice does not dilute the goblin game plan where goblins can keep up the pressure while not wasting tempo (thorn takes up your turn 2). I hope this helped.

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***
3 GoboLord-stars for a short, good and experienced explanation!

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Originally Posted by jin

Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

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Can we detail this other means? Thanks.

Yeah, they're good against The Rock, as GoboLord said. I remember once, I was playing R/B Goblins, and I had Wort and a Warchief in play and a Stingscourger in GY. I kept boucing his Doran for like 4 or 5 turns, and hit him to 3 life (I was at 2 life). Then, he casted Doran again, casted a Noble Hierarch, and beat me with a 1/2 Birds of Paradise. It's a sad history :(

People should not confuse things. Stingscourger is NOT removal. It is tempo gain. Either by connecting your Lackey, or removing a blocker and attacking with your 2/2, either by bouncing something expensive (Relicary) and blocking something big.
In today's meta, it is not worth it imo. It is awful against Vengevine. The only thing you'll accomplish is giving them another dude for them to cast and bring back Vengevines.
Bolts have proven to be the best removal right now. Few decks pack Ponder/Chain Lightning now, so it is usually enough to remove a Goyf early game, or even an Relicary. Costing 1 mana is really great too, with the added bonus of going to the dome once in a while.

@Gobbo: how do you side against UGmadness with that list (exactly like mine). I guess you have posted already, just need to check it out... Cause my MU against them hasn't been that great since I dropped Needles...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

***
3 GoboLord-stars for a short, good and experienced explanation!

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Thanks GoboLord, I hope it was out of 3 stars..

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Originally Posted by raindrainxi

Can we detail this other means? Thanks.

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It depends on what kind of hate cards they have on your goblins. For example:

White enchantments (Humility/Mat/Absolute Law):
you would be much better off with Anarchy while porting them early on.

Red enchantments that do damage (Lightning Rift/Seizmic Assault):
pithing needle would be better (than thorn)

Artifacts that do damage (Jitte/Cursed Scroll):
your favourite artifact removal card

etc.... I hope I helped

You know, I keep seeing all this roundabout logic of how:

A. Mana Denial is good against Survival.
B. Port is Mana Denial.

So therefore

C. Port is good against Survival.

This is the least true thing since untrue came to falsetown. Whatever that means.

The point of this is that Rishadan Port is balls garbage against Survival decks. If they drop a Fetchland and pass, or lead with a Hierarch, you're not going to keep them off of :1::g:. And if they get the Survival out, guess what they're going to do in response to your port activation? Activate Survival with the targeted land.

Port is bad against VVine. True.
But is this a reason not to run them? No.
VVines are the only deck in legacy? No.

Don't try to make an anti Survival of the Fittest sideboard. There're more decks in Legacy we should be worried about.

GoboLord said: Mana denial in form of Pyrokinesis/Bolts/Wastelands to kill Nobles/Birds/Dual Lands. The point here isn't killing their combo, it's almost impossible. It's just about delaying them a little bit to let your Piledrivers do their bloody job.

If you want to kill Vengevines completely, just change your deck to CounterTop and run some Peacekeepers.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

@Gobbo: how do you side against UGmadness with that list (exactly like mine). I guess you have posted already, just need to check it out... Cause my MU against them hasn't been that great since I dropped Needles...

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//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

//Flex [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector

3 Mogg War Marshal [OUT]
1 Chieftain [OUT]

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis [IN]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

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It's up to you. I don't nessecarily see them as a combo (although their interaction is obviously very good).
You have to see that those cards are very good on their own. Skirk Porspector can fight Jitte, abouse your MWM and always provides you with free mana for Lightning Bolt. Sharpshooter is very good in the mirror, has a nice interaction with Pyrokinesis and is just gamebreaking with SGC, (while he also interacts with MWM of course).

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

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I have the same problem sometimes, when I'm too much concentrating on the combo and getting the pieces.
Now, I usually only concentrate on this combo when it's directly finishing an opponent and I don't count on removal.

Offtopic:
I've really found this thread usefull and it has certainly improved my skills with the deck!
Thanks all.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

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I would never remove them from MD, the synergies and interactions with both cards (with or without each other), are just to great. They are my favorite silver bullets and have saved me lots of times. There are just to much you can do with both cards, i tend to get unexpected wins with both cards, on thier own or with each other, on games i would never win otherwise.
Sharpshooter can hold of all x/3 creatures, and make them trade with your 1/1, and it has such great synergi with MWM.
And i completely agree with GoboLords post, it can really win games together with cards like, Pyrokinesis, Siege-Gangs.
And as GoboLords says, Skirk can fight Jitte's and has a nice synergi with MWM. It can also protect you frome Daze, and it can also give you that last mana you need to win the game.

All those scenarios (and much more) has happened me alot, if you know how to stack and how to use the interactions with both these cards, they are really game winning.

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Originally Posted by antonbystedt

I would never remove them from MD

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As much as I like them right now, I wouldn't say this.
They're awesome for todays meta, but may be not as good tomorrow...