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SDT does hold Miracles together, we can all agree on this. Disabling Top is a huge problem to their flow in that deck. BUT, that does nothing else against the rest of the format if it were to be banned. Miracles would be much worse, so then Delver and Omni just assume the position. I don't think that would be a prudent ban choice if I were the one doing it.
-Matt
Yup, a few months later. My apologies in using the word Set when I should have said Block. In the context of a format that spans DECADES. (BTW, that's kind of the amusing thing about Treasure Cruise. It's effect was basically the same as Flash (if not as grotesque): It dictated the Meta of a GP, and then it went away, likely for good.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm confused. Was Upheaval not a Time Walk in the format where Psychotog was the relevant control finisher? And I'm pretty sure most of the time I killed someone with a Morphling, it had very little to do with a Time Walk. Hell, EOTFOFYL is one of the most recognizable control 'finishers' there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Your main complaint was that Entreat was an "out of nowhere win condition." If you are taken by surprise by a control finisher, something is very strange indeed. If you're going to call yourself a serious Legacy player, the top of your opponents library is about as 'out of nowhere' as your opponents Graveyard when they're playing Dredge. I really like how Carsten summed it up in his article -
If you would like to argue that Miracles is the deck it is because of the incidental Entreats, as opposed to the major card advantage and quality engines, be my guest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carsten
If Scroll Rack triggered Miracles, we could play with it. It doesn't trigger Miracles, and is a high costs Sorcery Speed Spell. It's way too hard to fit in.
So, why does Miracles have to go?
There will always be a best deck or decks. Is being the best grounds for banning of something?
I'm not convinced it has to go necessarily either way. ..I don't have much trouble beating miracles on modo...but then again it's so prevalent and oppressive online that my whole sideboard is essentially miracles and omni tell hate. Something feels a bit wrong with that and I can understand why people are tired of miracles being the king of the hill (at least if delver was king it would be a bit more fun to play against by most measures).
The only thing I'm pretty sure about at this point is dig through time needs to go we the way of the treasure cruise.
Sorry I'm a little late to respond to this (work), but I think that banning entreat is the way to go if you want to ban something out of miracles with minimal impact on the rest of the format. If entreat was gone I think it would lead to decks like BUG, Jund, Junk, and Death and Taxes being able to prey upon the deck and give it a natural (and a lot more commonly played than 12 post) bad match up. If entreat didn't allow Miracles to come back into a game it was losing out of nowhere then it would be a lot less of a problem since the BG decks with abrupt decay can actually keep it in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
This thread is generating eleventy billion reported posts per hour now, so I'm locking it temporarily. Take a deep breath, step away from your computer, maybe take a walk and get a beer with friends. This thread will be back tomorrow when tempers have (hopefully) subsided.
I still think Frantic Search is a safe Unban. No one can ever say how it would be overpowered and it would aid in strengthening weaker decks like Tide varieties and maybe slightly Reanimator although not much.
IMO High Tide->(Frantic Search/Dig Through Time/Brainstorm) is quite potent.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Reanimator, Show and Tell, and High Tide all want it. Storm could also use it effectively.
I do agree that it would be mostly 'safe', but I'm not 100% on that. Making High Tide better is not a big deal, and Reanimator getting a little late game efficiency isn't completely terrible, as that is not where the deck suffers. The problem is how good it makes Show and Tell. On T3, you lose a card from your hand to cycle two Lands away. That is basically equating to turning two Lands into a Force of Will. (With Frantic Search being the card you pitch, so long as you find any Blue Spell.) The deck is just a two-card combo, so it pushes decks like DnT further away, especially considering it can tap 3 Islands to untap 2 Islands and a Mountain against the Port.
Show and Tell is a deck that just wants two specific cards to win, everything else is ancillery. That means that discarding with Frantic Search isn't a big deal, as you can do it on 3-cards and cycle into your win for less than 0 mana. On the other hand, it means that you can't use the card at all if you're on two cards, unlike something like Brainstorm or Ponder, and it does almost nothing once you have an Omni in play (if you're ofthat persuasion).
Well you do need SNT + Omni + X. Sometimes you need SNT + Omni + X + Counterspell to beat your opponent's counterspell, which means sometimes you need SNT + Omni + X + FoW + Blue Card. Sometimes you need cards to pitch to your opponent's Hymns and Lilianas, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Reanimator being unable to loot a fatty into the bin until turn 3 is not exactly ideal.
I feel like you really have to abuse the untap part of the card to make it worth it, because this hypothetical card is not particularly exciting:
Careful Study Avenger :0:
Instant
You can't cast Careful Study Avenger on your first or second turn of the game.
Draw 2 cards, then discard 2 cards.
I'm pretty sure the card only goes in storm decks. (High Tide obviously but it possibly also enables some weird Doomsday piles).
It's just quite a powerful card so it could also give some other forgotten strategy a bit of a boost (UG Enchantress for example) or create an entirely new archetype.
I don't think that it would be too good though.
I fail to see where FS would slot into Omni lists. They already run 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain, 3-4 GProbe. It gets to a point where you're just casting cantrips and not winning. FS would literally only slot into High Tide, and make light splashes through out the format. It's card disadvantage, and you I don't think DTT warrants running it when 1cc cantrips get into the graveyard just as easily, give combo decks a t1 play, can chain, aren't card disadvantage, usually dig deeper, and just are really head and shoulders better for combo decks not-named High Tide.
With it unbanned I don't see High Tide becoming t1, at all, but it certainly does become a hell of a lot stronger. Would love to see a meta where High Tide becomes the premier Storm deck again, as it has a little more natural game vs decks that want to drag the match out (Miracles you asshole), and they aren't bad in the combo mirror.
Vise, Earthcraft and Twist are all safer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Also personally i'd rather have Bargain in the format compared to Search, because Bargain cost 6, is an enchantment, and work with via an activated ability, all things that make it easier to interact with compared to a 3 mana free instant.
I have to admit, I'm not seeing how any of this is safer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Vise - Eh... I can see for and against it. Overall I dislike the card as many many aggro decks are going to run it and then the format could turn into a life race format.
Earthcraft - I don't think this was actually a serious recommendation. I'll pretend I didn't see it.
Mind Twist - Once again, I can see how it would be ok, but at the same time it could turn many deck matches into topdeck mode vs topdeck mode. That sounds super-dee-duper fun.
Bargain - Hands down an extremely powerful card. Many combo decks would run this card. Imagine Show-and-tell with Bargain. Storm just dumps it down and refills and wins. It's extremely powerful and I think it gives a lot of combo decks too much strength. It would be a four of in more than just combo decks, but it would be way potent in combo decks.
As far as discussion on Frantic Search is progressing, I could see some Show decks running it, but it isn't exactly what they would want since other cheaper dig spells are far more efficient. I wouldn't run it in my show deck off the bat, but I could see testing. It mostly would give power to less seen decks like Solidarity/High Tide/Reanimator in a way that doesn't make them 'THE' deck to beat like Bargain would do for many decks.
Earthcraft is a serious suggestion. It does nothing more broken then a lot of other cards do.
Earthcraft is a very safe unban. *Looks at signature*
Earthcraft won't be unbanned. Black Vise could be unbanned, it sure would help aggro :smile:
And of course Goblin Recruiter, let's not forget Goblin Recruiter
So would Oath of Druids still be unsafe to unban in a format full of broken things like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Terminus, and the like?
Are people really suggesting that a 3cmc sorcery speed combo enabler is too strong for Legacy?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
You'll notice these other cards require a lot of support in order to do anything. Oath of Druids is a one man show. It has other cards that make it nicer, but it does it's thing all on it's own.
Are you referring to Show and Tell...?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
EarthcraftQuote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Brainstorm is obviously bannable from power level perspective, but I can't see it happening (and I wouldn't be happy either). Power level isn't everything; there is a reason Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted in vintage but Library is restricted. Brainstorm, Fetchlands, Wasteland and Force of Will are, to me, not really discussable for bans, despite their strength.
Now, the format is very blue, partially due to Brainstorm itself. But color concerns aren't really important (and pretty hard to fix since the broken blue creatures got printed) to me. Format diversity is. In my eyes the only thing the format needs is an actual aggro deck; the other archetypes are present. With that in mind it would seem interesting to get rid of the current Miracles engine, as that was the nail in the coffin for aggro. Combined with potential time concerns, I'd say that top is a fine ban, despite liking the card myself too. I doubt combo would run rampant without miracles, as you can still combine enough angles of attack against it; discard/counters/manadenial/gravehate (BUG Delver) or counters/manadenial/hatebears (in UWR variants for example) are examples of this.
Furthermore Wizards seems to be proud of keeping the B&R list "compact", meaning that a card only comes off when one is put on so they have some safe ubans in reserve. And there are several cards on the list that can potentially come off.
For this to happen, more cards would have to be banned. Dig Through Time is a card that I wouldn't mind seeing banned, since TC got the axe (both could stay IMO, but if TC went DTT may as well go). The main problem with banning DTT is that if you also ban SDT control will have a problem. In addition I'd love Show and Tell to be banned because it's a herp-derp deck, compared to more "interesting" combo decks such as Elves and Storm, but that's obviously not really a strong argument.
What can come off? Black Vise, Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search all seem quite safe to me. The first two are pretty lame if they end up strong, but I don't think they'll be that strong. Goblin Recruiter is an interesting card, with its logistical issues probably preventing a comeback. If SDT and DTT are both banned control will need something else; but I'm not sure if we want a card like Drain or Library. I don't think we're getting Survival or Misstep back. I do think there are some other combo related cards that could potentially be fine. Imperial Seal, for example, is not that great, being sorcery speed. The cost could well be a factor though. I also don't think certain engines (Windfall and Bargain f.e.) are as evil as some people think, but I doubt we'll be seeing them.
So we'll wish for:
+ Earthcraft
+ Frantic Search
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Show and Tell
But I expect:
+ Black Vise
- Dig Through Time
I'm still not sure the rationalization of this is, but ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
Earthcraft isn't a 3 cmc sorcery speed combo enabler. It doesn't fit the criteria of their statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It's actually 4 cmc.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/274.jpg
I would submit that if you think Squirrel's Nest is THE reason why Earthcraft is on the ban list then you should think of how the card is powerful beyond that. I don't think that is the primary reason, it's just the obvious one.
I would submit that Gaea's Cradle is more powerful than Earthcraft on mana producing measurements.
How could a Legacy overrun by squirrel tokens off of a two card combo be more broken than what we have right now? Elves kills on turn 3 if not disrupted. How exactly could Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest do better than that? And that's the criteria we should be looking at. If it ain't faster to the kill with creatures than Elves is it ain't broken unless it is somehow impervious to disruption.
Squirrel Nest is the main (and probably only) reason Earthcraft is banned. It's surely on the more powerful side of the average power level in Legacy, but that doesn't really mean a lot.
There is no real reason not to unban Squirrel Nest.
Dammit, I always get those two mixed up. Earthcraft is 1G. Sorry Enchantress Guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Either way, the presence of Earthcraft on the ban list while Show & Tell is legal is nothing short of embarrassing. Actual Splinter Twin might be better than Earthcraft combo now.
You also need some kind of acceleration (be it Exploration, a mana dork or whatever) to realistically kill on T4. Because otherwise, it goes like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
T1: Land
T2: Land, Earthcraft
T3: Land, Squirrel Nest on tapped land
T4: Create a bazillion squirrel tokens
T5: Swing for lethal
An additional mana source speeds up the process one turn, but a T4 kill still isn't that great for a combo kill. Especially with Abrupt Decay in the format. Pithing Needle and Revoker on Earthcraft are also things to consider.
I'm guessing the way it goes these days is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
T1: Forest, Utopia Sprawl
T2: Land, Earthcraft, extra mana available to play around Daze
T3: Land, Squirrel Nest, Earthcraft hit by Abrupt Decay with Squirrel Nest on the stack
But that's just my jaded view of things.
That's why you play some number of Sterling Grove in your Enchantment filled deck.
It would possibly be played in enchantress, how much better that is then RIP + Helm I'm not sure (you do get to play replenish though)
I predict it will be unbanned just in time for the 2020 U.S. Presidential elections
It would be played in Enchantress. I have two signed Korean Earthcrafts in my Enchantress deck right now, waiting for the day that it's unbanned. Turning Argothian into a mana dork with haste speeds the deck up by at least two turns. It might even be a tier 1.5 deck with Earthcraft unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
Squirrel Net is indeed the only reason Earthcraft is banned. In fact, Earthcraft's restriction in Vintage is one of the restrictions (along with Entomb, if I remember correctly) that led to separating Type 1 and 1.5 into Vintage and Legacy.
Then it's a 3 card combo with an extra turn involved. Legacy's ultimate turn is 3 right now. That would fit right in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
It's a 2 card combo with potential protection built in. (;Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Vise would see 0 play in Legacy. I'll gladly paypal 10$ to anyone quoting me if Vise get unbanned and get more than 4 copies in the next 4 SGCs T8 after his unbanning.
Earthcraft is another combo piece in enchantress that could potentially make the deck more annoying but wouldn't push it to T1 status still. So i don't see why anyone would be against unbanning it when we have SnT and Brainstorm in the format.
Twist is borderline playable , but slightly more playable than Vise. Same condition for Vise, but make that 8 copies in the 4 SGC T8 next to its unbanning.
Bargain cheated by SnT is comparable to Grizzly off SnT. Rituals into Bargain is much more viable than Grizzly off rituals, and probably better than AdN off rituals cause you can run 4 Bargains and 4 FoWs in your deck, even if it cost 1 more and it's sorcery. I'm not sure how good that would be, but i'd bet it wouldn't break the format and it's surely a more interesting combo deck compared to omnitell anyway.
I agree with the guys that we'll probably see DTT banned and Vise unbanned and some hundreds of words spent on how Vise is unfun and uninteractive but could help the format combat the blue decks, then proceed to see the card never played just like Land Trash which WotC said they'd never unban because of how "unfun and uninteractive and promote bad plays" ok, because the rest of the format is all made by fun and interactive cards plz.
I'd love to test Vise in a RUG Delver or UR Delver type of deck.
Cheers
Anyone thinks that Fastbond really needs to be banned?
Since Legacy don't play stuff like Gush, I see it as a glorified Manabond for the Lands deck, but wouldn't make it much better than it already is (But better, yes, I know).