[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by sdematt

So as a preview to what we're going to talk about on the next podcast, I'm predicting a pretty sizable metagame shift to the following:

-Combo, in the form of ANT and Sneak and Show (or OmniTell)
-Control focused on mass creature removal (Terminus based control and Deed/Deluge control, but mostly Miracles)
-TNN Blade midrange
-BGx Midrange
-Tempo Strategies

The main point is that midrange is going to break off into TNN Blade and the BGx decks that don't run blue, or don't run TNN (so BUG Shardless, us, Jund compared to Esperblade and PatriotBlade).

Tempo strategies are going to have to adapt to TNN being game over for them, and honestly, so will we. Golgari Charm and Deed are definitely good, but I wouldn't mind have more equipment removal. RUG Delver is likely going to have to run 2-3 Ancient Grudge postboard. Thoughts on the analysis?

-Matt

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i actually think that bant or new horizons might be able to pull off a comeback TNN seems to me as if its not that effective alone, but with equipment or exaltet triggers TNN could become i giant pain in the ass
also meerfolk might get big again thanks to TNN with its lord effects

other than that i think your analysis is correct, it will become something like "either be able to ignore TNN / have the best outs to TNN / be faster than TNN"

EDIT: still, i think the card sucks really big time, and i do not think it is good for legacy-developement

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i actually think that bant or new horizons might be able to pull off a comeback TNN seems to me as if its not that effective alone, but with equipment or exaltet triggers TNN could become i giant pain in the ass
also meerfolk might get big again thanks to TNN with its lord effects

other than that i think your analysis is correct, it will become something like "either be able to ignore TNN / have the best outs to TNN / be faster than TNN"

EDIT: still, i think the card sucks really big time, and i do not think it is good for legacy-developement

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I agree. They want to promote interaction, yet they print a card like this. Excuse? "We don't test for Legacy."

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I agree. They want to promote interaction, yet they print a card like this. Excuse? "We don't test for Legacy."

-Matt

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Product tested for commander. My test result would be "It sucks in commander games with <3 players, which is a lot of them."

Does anyone play a straight GB version of the rock?

I think you lose a lot of flexibility in not running a third colour.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=89559

List placed first about ten days ago. I think this was posted not long ago, or someone copied the list exactly:

Creatures [14]
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

Instants [9]
2 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [9]
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tajuru Preserver
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog

Interesting choice: Tajuru Preserver is a mini-Sigarda, so that's interesting.

I feel like if we're wanting to win all the Combo matchups all day, if we're running this config after board, we're fine:

6-8 one mana discard
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Revoker/Pithing Needle (Revoker better against Combo, Needle better against Control)

We almost can't lost. Essentially, keeping a hand with discard + hatebear spells hard times for them, followed by pressure or Liliana it's over. Otherwise, I like the list.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Does anyone play a straight GB version of the rock?

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I have seen a list locally that is straight GB and is not the GB nic fit list. I am pretty sure this is the list but I could be off a few cards. it is super grindy….

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness

3 Lilliana of the Veil

3 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Reanimate
4 Small pox

22 lands

Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Dismember
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Thrun the last troll

It really is not anything fancy and is pretty dependent on either Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library to keep it going. He loves the small poxes and says he will never feel bad to sacrifice a creature to win the game.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I have seen a list locally that is straight GB and is not the GB nic fit list. I am pretty sure this is the list but I could be off a few cards. it is super grindy….

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You should recommend Unearth unless he really wants that Thrun or to take their creatures. It'll get all of his maindeck creatures without the life-loss and can cycle when it's not useful.


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Theory crafting on fighting AnT and TES since I haven't run into them since I've been running mine - Has anyone decided to lower their hatebear count since they're not extremely reliable vs most combo decks. I've been re-looking at some of the lists for those decks and feel like extraction effects on rituals would be a better route. Not only can you use them mid run but without the rituals their stuck with only diamonds and petals... not a good way to actually storm out. If they matter, Hatebears typically just get killed or played around in most of the combo decks. Taking enablers seems like a stronger way to go about it.

I do understand that: Thalia can't be played around with spells but is typically killed. Teeg dies just before they go off. Cannonist gets played around by them acting on your turn when they can and removed when they're ready.

I guess my real question is, have people looked into less fragile ways of dealing with combo decks?

well i am not really sure ...

i used tidehollow sculler some time ago against combo as a sort of hatebear... he is not exactly a hatebear because he actually is only a 2/2 body that "discards"
but i had some good expieriences with him, and one game against a stormplayer was just hilarious due to him

i played 1st turn discard on a ritual of his, otherwise he would have had 2 ways of killing me next turn (past in flames, and tendrills allready in hand.... just not the mana to kill me anymore
the 2 following turns i played 2 sculler removing from the game both his wincons, that would otherwise have killed me if they went to the yard :D
my opponent rage-quit after that

also sculler is quite good in the show and tell matchup as well

once they play show and tell and lay something down you get to use sculler, and grab whatever they wanted to kill you with

just one question on that..... lets say they put sneak attack in play and i lay down sculler, does my opponent get the opportunity to use sneak attack in response to my sculler trigger if he has the mana open? i am not sure on that one

but i am not sure if sculler would fall into the category of less fragile hate against combo...... probably not

the route of extracting a storm players rituals IMO is totaly viable, but in that case extirpate is far superior to surgical extraction due to split second i think

Sculler is a trigger. Yes, he gets to respond to the trigger. So if he drops a Sneak Attack, he can in response to the trigger from Sculler sneak in a guy. So in that case it won't work. It will work against Omnihalls, when he drops a Onmniscience and you a Sculler. Enter the Infinite is a sorcery, so you can grab it before he can play it. You will lose to Cunning for Foresight though. If he has Trickbind main, he'll grab that and counter the trigger. If he doesn't, he'll grab Cunning for Trickbind, and an Impulse and a Brainstorm, which will let him see seven cards to look for an Enter/Intuition/Cunning.

It feels like Teeg and Thalia are better, although they both have their issues. Thalia can be played through by Show and Tell decks, and Teeg doesn't stop Show and Tell itself, allowing them to kill you with a creature. Both disrupt Storm a lot better though.

in fact that means neither of our hatebears will ever be enough, or stop anything bad from happening

ethersworn canonist + teeg is my configuration in my SB btw. and i run a bit more discard main than most other lists do

canonist because he is also usefull against miracles, cascade and obviously elves

MD discard is 4 thoughtseize 3 cabal therapy 2 liliana (will probably switch to the following -1 thoughtseize +1 cabal therapy)
this worked pretty well with tidehollow sculler


but given the fact that capable combo players are able to play around each and everyone of our hatebears i have to ask the question if there are other options for us outside of more discard?

Hey, im new in this topic but i test ROCK with Dark Depths. i personally think that this is good idea to play. i will not describe cards in main which is obv like dark confidant or hexmage. i will say sth about cards like....chalice....but first look at list:


3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Cabal Therapy - i choose because we will disc opp from all StP
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Living Wish - rich sideplan on this cards make game easier - ah obv:D
4 Thoughtseize

3 Pithing Needle - main target to protect combo are Wasteland / Karakas / Maze of ith. MU say what target will be. obv we can use it to protect us from other bad cards which can be bad. Also works against elfball
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Cavern of Souls - 90% call shaman for our Deathrite and Hexmage
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Thespian's Stage

Side is obv. lands to grab it by wish and creatures to win like hexmage or kill bad guy by Maw. one card is interesting: chalice of the void. most of our cards are ! mana but we play it to kill elfball / ant etc. and very good against deck with ponders, bstorms, shamans, etc. i very like this card. also is good vs affinity for 0 and dredge to put off LED / Moxes
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke -
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Wasteland

what is Ur opinion about this version of BG.

Your gonna want the eva depths thread as that's pretty much exactly what you're playing it needs revived anyway as its gotten a lot of new toys in abrupt decay deathrite cavern of souls and thespian stage.

What do you guys think of Thrun in this deck? Im sure it has been discussed at some point, but the search function for forums is generally horrible. I figure the best way to answer an impossible to deal with threat, is to play my own impossible to deal with threat.

4 is a lot against any decks but UW Miracles so he is a liability, especially against decks with wastelands and stifles.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

You should recommend Unearth unless he really wants that Thrun or to take their creatures. It'll get all of his maindeck creatures without the life-loss and can cycle when it's not useful.

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Taking whatever the opponent discards is extremely useful and he just likes the flair of it. The lifeless can be regained by Shaman if it matters and he plays pretty casual for the most part. He says, when I cast smallpox do you discard the fatty in your hand or the creature you were going to play next turn?

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

4 is a lot against any decks but UW Miracles so he is a liability, especially against decks with wastelands and stifles.



Taking whatever the opponent discards is extremely useful and he just likes the flair of it. The lifeless can be regained by Shaman if it matters and he plays pretty casual for the most part. He says, when I cast smallpox do you discard the fatty in your hand or the creature you were going to play next turn?

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Stifle seems to be on the down swing for the time being honestly. I plan on running 6 basics as well as DRS so 4 mana seems very reasonable

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Originally Posted by warfordium

as we put it while railbirding the finals, "why do you hate fun so much?!"



incorrect! you 2-0'd me. in game 1 i actually had the nuts from about turn 2 on having Duress'd your Thoughtseize, but my Ponder (shuffle), Preordain (push push), Ponder (shuffle), Ponder (shuffle) (thats 15 cards for those of you counting at home) found none of 4 Tutors, 1 Lim-Dûl's Vault, the Tendrils, or the Ad Nauseam. hell, i'd even have taken goblins at that point.

the magic gods (still) owe me a T0 nuts against you—but congrats all the same.

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Yeah Matt's a bit of a griefer, isn't he? :tongue:

And if the match is against the James that I think it is...I have no doubt it would have been a long drawn-out affair.

Nice work fellas, wish I could've been there. Matt, maybe I can run your list in Paris? :cool:

anyone play classic BG rock? i back to mtg couple months ago and still in ,,which deck play every day'' phase. im thinking about play clan BG...i base on:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Disfigure
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed


any suggestion? im asking beacuse i see last posts about JUNK rock...but i want to know current solid build in this meta ;) ANT, Efball, rug, bug, miracles...this is popular today so...any opinion?

I posted a list further up the page that could be explored further sans the smallpox. You might wanna start there.

I would definitely play some number of Gatekeeper of Malakir in a straight BG version. Also would reduct your land count, since you're using Mox Diamond and Deathrite. I'm a fan of Diabolic Edict.

gatekeeper would need lots of black mana to be consistent therefore i never liked him outside of "the gate"

in a straight BG list i allways loved witness + unearth because it has so much lategame power, and once you have cleared the field with lets say a deed a single witness or unearth spells doom for the opponent
even with DRS all over the place i think this is still a very powerfull play, the only thing that really screws with that is rest in peace IMO

the list lavafrogg posted previously on this page has afew flaws though, the only 1CMC spells in the whole deck are reanimate and DRS, which in my opinion are way to few 1 CMC spells, outside of that it looks very straightforward but solid (still i would prefer unearth over reanimate, due to the lifeloss, but reanimate is way stronger because it gives the opportunity to interact with your opponents yard, which will be full of targets for it as well)

EDIT: hate to start a new page, and the mentioned list is on the previous page this way :P