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Except that no-one in any of those departments spends any time thinking about legacy. Do you honestly think the marketing team is considering legacy on a regular basis? Hell, the R&D team just released an article where they confirm that they don't actually do any modern testing at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-05-22
Nobody is actively thinking about legacy within wotc.
I'm not sure I'm on board with this characterization of the jump. I think Delver made a real impact but I also think we've seen a big impact in the last year. 50%+ in 2008-2009, 60%+ in 2011-2012, 70%+ in 2014-2015.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Ponder - Lorwyn (Oct 2007)
Vendilion Clique - Morningtide (Feb 2008)
Jace, the Mindsculptor - Worldwake (Mar 2010)
Preordain - M11 (Jul 2010)
Delver of Secrets - Innistrad (Sep 2011)
Omniscience - M13 (Jul 2012)
True-Name Nemesis - C13 (Nov 2013)
Treasure Cruise - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)
Dig Through Time - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)
Then you have the cards that are effectively blue given they work best in the blue shell:
Tarmogoyf - Future Sight (May 2007)
Ad Nauseum - Shards of Alara (Oct 2008)
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - (Apr 2010)
So I'd group the rise of the blue shell into three rough waves:
2008-2009 Tarmogoyf, Ponder, Vendilion Clique, Ad Nauseum
2010-2012 Jace, Preordain, Emrakul, Delver of Secrets
2013-2015 Omniscience, TNN, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time
Blue threats have outpaced the format sequentially and they've been joined by better cantrips and card selection as well. That's why we're where we are.
The cantrip part was pretty interesting, since Legacy is exactly plagued by that:Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
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Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.
That's not to say we don't like consistency, it's one of the reasons we put so many dual lands in our sets, but there should be a reasonable tradeoff for consistency.
Pretty easy - stop printing amazing blue cards and fucking everyone else.
-Matt
Unsurprisingly, I have to agree with all instances of this post. Printing non-drawback bullshit or easily splashable powercreep isn't going to do anything to break the cantrip safe haven. A deck like Deathblade shouldn't even be able to exist, but TNN and SFM doesn't even bother the manabase at all. What if SFM was WW and TNN 1WW? The format would have been a lot more balanced during 2014 for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
You left out this interesting part from the article about 'reasonable' consistency:Quote:
Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.
That's not to say we don't like consistency, it's one of the reasons we put so many dual lands in our sets, but there should be a reasonable tradeoff for consistency.
By extension, if this applied to Legacy as well, which is obviously doesn't, but if it did, then we were looking at a dual-land ban just around the corner.Quote:
If you want a deck that never has color problems, then you can play mono-red. If you want to play a three-color aggressive deck, then you get to play way more powerful spells, at the cost of your life and your lands entering the battlefield tapped and messing up your curve.
Technically, you have to pay life if you want to fetch for duals. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
Tapped dual variants is their bullshit excuse to sell new cards and to slow down the format to make their overcosted crap more viable. Hence 5 mana Wraths & company.
It's close to lying if you exclude all the non-blue printings since 2008 which shaped what Legacy was since 2008 and is today. No talk about Decay, DRS, , Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Thoughtseize, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Wild Nacatl, Life from the Loam, Thalia, SFM, Craterhoof, GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Vengevine, etc. or even the fact that Emrakul was first adapted by Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Don't act as if blue cardselection was the only aspect of the game which got better in the last 6 years. We still see D&T, Elves, Jund, Lands, etc as viable option in the metagame which also profited by the powercreep
I would say its more along the lines of Wizards giving blue the best low cost spells, and then printing cards that are extremely synergistic with said spells (delver, snapcaster, pyromancer, cruise, dig ect) that are blue or splashable. I think it is just the case that all other colors dont have access to cheap spells that are anywhere near as good as the blue package. Each color has a few, which is why there are so many variants of delver type decks that all run the same shell with those few decent spells in other colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Goyf works well in ANY shell that runs green and more then just creatures, not just blue shells. People really need to get over this misconception that Goyf is a blue creature because it is splash-able. Heck in modern most of the decks it sees play in have no blue cards at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Also calling Ad Nauseum a blue card is laughable since the decks that run is are normally more black then blue, ANT runs BS, Ponder, Probe and Pre-ordain, normally maxing at 14-15 blue cards IIRC but almost never more then 16. and normally what 20-21 black spells. Sorry but if a deck is more black then blue, then calling it a blue deck is wrong, and that is the only way to justify calling Ad Nauseum a blue card. Or are you someone who looks at a deck, sees Brainstorm and other cantrips, then stops right there saying that is is a blue deck running the blue shell regardless of the rest of the decks cards.
Goyf works best in the blue shell. That's when he's at his best as a threat. If he worked better in Jund or Junk or Naya then those lists would be in a better place than they are right now. If he didn't work in the blue shell then those lists would be better right now. He works better in RUG and BUG than anywhere else and that's where he has the highest impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
Ad Nauseum is not played in any lists that I am aware of that do not run at least 10 blue cantrips alongside it. It's played as a 1-of with 10+ blue spells to find either it or the black tutors that will find it.
And yes, if I see a lot of blue cantrips it's a blue shell list. The cantrips are a much bigger effect on the metagame right now than the permission or the creatures in blue. They're the effect that tells almost all of the archetypes that depend on a heavy load of non-blue spells to GTFO.
stopped reading here. is DRS a blue card? SFM? Bob?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
You're making my point for me though. You're right, all of those guys work better in the blue shell than in shells based around their color also.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
The point about Goyf is that before he showed up the blue shell didn't have an aggro wall easily available. Werebear, Nimble Mongoose and Mishra's factory were as close as you came for the shell. They all had flaws of one sort or another, none of them had the impact that Goyf did both in stabilizing and then in turning hard on the opponent when the opportunity presented itself.
2 mana for a 4/5 or 5/6 beater is a great thing. It's greater in the blue shell than anywhere else and that's unfortunate.
It is amazing how many good blue cards they have printed lately. It's like having Survival legal and not only printing Vengevine, but like 4-5 other functional reprints. Can't say I'm impressed.
It's not just blue cards. Where are Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Murderous Cut going to be used to best effect? In a blue shell with lots of fetches and cantrips hitting the graveyard early enough to make them valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
The blue shell is still going to be much better than anything else running even if they did ban Brainstorm. It will be weaker but it's way above the power level of the format at this point and a single ban isn't going to change that.
Dude, if Lands would really be dominating (which, I'm pretty sure will never happen), just pack the appropiate SB-hate. People are just unprepared and inexperienced against this deck. You don't have to believe me, but this deck is easy to beat with the right cards. I mean, Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction are still cards. With your reasoning decks that can go off multiple times per game have elements that are ban-worthy. Note that Lands has the interact by attacking with Marit Lage, which can be blocked... untill the end of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
If they unbanned Mishra's Workshop, it would put a big contender against the blue cantrip shell.
Unbans of Memory Jar and/or Mana Vault would have a similar effect I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varal
If you want to see a format which is Workshop vs. blue pile vs. Dredge, I honestly recommend you picking up Vintage. Playing against Turn 1 Spheres and Lodestones so you potentially never get to CAST a spell isn't for everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Varal
I quote this post after 3 pages because i found it so true i needed to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folofaatook
I read people here say that we are playing in a healty and diverse meta. Sure, healthy and diverse as long as you play 4 brainstorm 4 ponders and 4 force of will. Obviously this is not a healthy meta, the fact is just that people in legacy are by now so accustomed to this that it just seems normal, and people who actually like playing with said blue cards keep considering this meta healthy.
Obviously, wizards won't do anything (because they never do anything, because they don't care about legacy) so the format will slowly fade away and start resembling vintage. The restricted "elite" of people who like blue cards /blue decks will continue playing legacy, while everyone else will inevitably get tired of this shit and quit magic or start playing modern, that is basically what wizards wants.
Point me to the Storm, Lands, Elves, D&T, MUD, Burn, etc. running these three cards? Each of these archetypes make up for 2%-10% of the metagame despite not running these. Just sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
If that's the case why has attendance been so strong?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Storm plays 2 of the 3 most played spells, and 3 out of 5. It just does not play FoW & DTT for obvious nombo reasons with their engines, and because discard is an effective protection for them (who mostly want to be protected against countermagic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
So, for the sake of the argument, you can remove them from your list. Then, the most played deck you listed makes 3% of the metagame.
Anyway, the best way to see the prevalence of these cards is to have a look at their %ages from mtgtop8:
Brainstorm 81 %
Force of Will 74 %
Ponder 70 %
The 3 most played cards.
You can argue that they enable a wide variety of archetypes, that's for sure, with both tempo, midrange, controle and combo strategies playing them.
You cannot argue against the fact than more than 60% of the decks play these 12 cards, and that more than 80% of the decks do rely on brainstorm.
I am not arguing against these numbers; I'm arguing that they present a must-have-core of 12 cards you cannot succeed without. Look at other formats:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Quote:
Vintage:
Mox Sapphire 92 %
Black Lotus 87 %
Mox Ruby 78 %
Ancestral Recall 71 %
Mox Jet 71 %
Mental Misstep 71 %
Mox Emerald 70 %
Force of Will 70 %
Time Walk 69 %
Quote:
Standard:
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 45 %
Windswept Heath 45 %
Hero's Downfall 44 %
Thoughtseize 40 %
Caves of Koilos 40 %
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Block:
Scoured Barrens 62 %
Murderous Cut 62 %
Sorin, Solemn Visitor 62 %
Heir of the Wilds 60 %
Wingmate Roc 55 %
Utter End 50 %
Let that sink in. The older/deeper the format the more limited via testing and experience is the to-go cardpool.Quote:
Commander:
Command Tower 83 %
Wasteland 80 %
Polluted Delta 75 %
Misty Rainforest 75 %
Cavern of Souls 74 %
Windswept Heath 73 %
Flooded Strand 70 %
Wooded Foothills 67 %
Marsh Flats 65 %
Scalding Tarn 63 %
Sorry, but this still allows for a healthy meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Health and Diversity have to do with the range of deck archetypes, a healthy meta will contain a decent % of each of combo, control, and aggro decks. and it will have multiple decks (strategies) in each category. meaning there are multiple distinct decks. Most of them using the 2 best support cards in the format (BS and Ponder) has little to do with diversity as they are strictly support, and not how the deck wins.
You are equating Diversity with color balance but they are not the same (from my experience allot of the player base misunderstands and miss uses terms, "fair" being the worst example of a term the player base uses for something other then what it actually means), and while blue is the most played color, every color is playable. Color diversity is the worst stat to lok at for the health of a format, because it leads to looking at goodcard.decks decks that follow the same basic game plan with a different set of cards and slight alterations between them, and saying that the format is healthy and diverse because the colors are playable, even though the level of strategy and play-style diversity of the format is horrible.
Question: would it not be better for the format if Sensei's Divining Top was banned?
- It would drastically reduce the number of draws in tournaments, as Miracles players (particularly those who do not use Top efficiently) are primarily responsible for these draws. You can argue that people need to get better at using Top, but that is simply too idealistic - there will always be a larger percentage of slower Miracles players than faster ones as long as new players continue to adopt the deck.
- It wouldn't neuter the Miracles deck completely, as versions with 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm and possibly 4 Preordain would still be good enough to set up the Miracle spells. It wouldn't be as dominating as the SDT versions have been, but that's precisely the point - Miracles is too good of a control deck and stifles development of most aggro in the format.
- It would allow more diversity of control decks and aggro decks. Right now there is very little incentive to play a control deck in this format that isn't Miracles or Lands. If Miracles didn't have access to SDT, it would only be a "good" control deck instead of the de facto *best* control deck. You would see more players experimenting with traditional U/W control, and you would see a renewed interest in Landstill archetypes. Additionally, you would see more aggro decks other than simply Ux Delver decks, because the reduced number of Terminus in the format would allow aggro to thrive. Diversity is always good for the format!
The only people that would be upset with a Sensei's Divining Top ban are some of the hardcore Miracles players that primarily play this deck in Legacy. Everyone else would benefit - aggro players, players of different control archetypes, tournament organizers, the judges, combo players, new players who want to get into Legacy but are intimidated by either playing Miracles or against Miracles...
A Sensei's Divining Top ban is one of the best things that could happen to Legacy, imho.
Just because you say something many times- that doesn't make it true. This is all just rhetoric. "its better in the blue shell"- what are your hard facts to back up a statement like this? And actually Dark Confidant is not good in a blue shell because you can't play him in conjunction with cards like force of will and dig through time. DRS is better in a blue shell? I think elves, maverick, and Jund would disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Banning Top would be bad because it would pretty much take card selection away from non-blue decks that still have a punchers chance, like Painter or some Nic Fit decks. Those decks also don't take as long with their Tops as Miracles does.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
The reason top is spun so much is Counterbalance. That is the card that should be banned. It is overpowered (compare Chalice of the Void), unfun, encourages durdly drag-outs, and requires decks to play a narrow set of answers in order to function (Abrupt Decay had to be printed because of CB).
You could also ban the actual miracle cards themselves but I think making it easier to rebuild after a wrath (by taking Counterbalance away) mitigates the effect of getting Terminused. I mean, sure it's a one-mana instant-speed super wrath, but those qualities are rarely relevant. And ETA is a bomb like any other that can be easily dealt with as long as every answer doesn't just ram into the Counterbalance maw.
SDT IS Miracles. Resolve a Pithing Needle on their Top and watch their deck miserably fall apart. And no, cantrips can't fix that. It also kills their Counterbalance locks which means it gets molested by various combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
BUG decks that don't play DTT play Bob. FOW is tough to hit, but then again, they also have BS/Ponder to keep it off the top off the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
What is the best DRS deck right now? Is it any of those, or is it BUG Delver/Deathblade? Maybe it's elves, but that doesn't seem true in this current meta. Elves has lost a lot of market share since the delve cards were printed. Maybe Julian has a good explanation of why.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
What FOAT consistently says, and he is right, is that the only way for new cards to enter the format is for them to synergize in some way with the blue cantrips + fetches base that most decks are built on. If DTT gets the axe, we will be down to Monastery Mentor and Tasigur as legacy-playables from the Khans block, and neither of those is more than a 2-of in any current T1 deck.
I think that Miracles would still be playable without Top, but definitely much less powerful. Which is fine, and exactly what Legacy needs - more diversity among its control decks and not a single overpowering control deck ruling the format and squeezing out aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
As I said, banning SDT would bring back an interest in all different flavors of Ux control and force people to try different things instead of just defaulting to SDT + Counterbalance + Terminus.
Counterbalance and Miracles are perfectly reasonable cards. They were not designed to be abused in conjunction with Top, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
The problem really is the Top. It enables far too much card selection at too low of a cost. Even if you banned Counterbalance and/or Miracle spells, Top would still be played and drag out matches and eventually combo with something else printed down the line.
SDT is like Survival of the Fittest - strong on its own, but broken with certain additional pieces - this time, any card that profits from manipulation of the top of the library. What broke Survival was Vengevine, and instead of banning Vengevine and then dealing with more Survival shenanigans down the line, Wizards did the right thing and just banned the engine. In this case the correct choice again is to ban the engine and not the support pieces. The engine of Miracles degeneracy is Sensei's Divining Top.
And honestly, the argument that banning top is bad for non-blue decks holds about as much water as the argument that banning Mental Misstep was bad for non-blue decks because they had a colorless counterspell. Sensei's Divining Top helps blue FAR MORE than it helps any other color, just as Mental Misstep simply helped blue far more than it helped any other color.
This is true, but no more than 2. Contrast this with Bob showing up as 4 of in things like Maverick and deadguy, and I feel pretty comfortable saying this is not a blue card.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
He could be right, but he could be wrong. I'll say it again -where are the facts? WHY are these cards better in a "blue shell"? Goyf, bob, SFM, DRS, etc. are all highly splashable. some blue decks utilize them, some nonblue decks do as well. I swear, people on this forum would be happy to see all blue cards get banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Khans block was pretty nutty for legacy. We got fetches reprint, swiftspear, cruise, dtt, siege rhino, mentor, tasigur, ugin (I think thats it). How many quality legacy playable cards do you want them to print in 1 block?
Sure, but banning Top does nothing for the rest of the format, it just takes Miracles out of the equation, leaving Omni and various flavours of Delver and Blade to rise up. All of these decks are running the very common DTT. It's a bit more ubiquitous in the format than I expected, to say the least.
-Matt
It actually does alot for the format. It speeds up tournaments, creates less draws, makes Legacy more enjoyable. I'd rather lose to combo than a durdly control deck and that sentiment is probably echoed by most players.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
And I don't think that removing Miracles turns Legacy into a Combo-Fest, either. There will still be control decks. I predict, if SDT is axed, that we see a resurgence of Landstill decks and various other UWx or UGx control decks.
And the most important result of banning SDT would be forcing control decks to rely on less efficient sweepers than the completely degenerate Terminus. This would let more aggro decks slip into the format. Aggressive non-blue aggro decks that play hatebears for combo, or even Zoo-like aggro decks that play some hatebears and/or burn and/or discard that can present a fast clock for combo decks backed up by some light disruption. These types of decks are basically completely squeezed out of the format by Miracles Counter-Top + Terminus plan.
I love people presenting their opinions as fact. Good thing we have someone here to set us all straight on these ideas and definitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcds31
Quote:
Originally Posted by I can play that game too
I think that if you think SDT is the problem with the format at large, you may be a little off. I understand your point on tournament draws and such, but I encourage you to play more games against more decks. The Ponder build is far less derdly, as well.
-Matt
SDT isn't the only problem with the format, but it offers very little for anybody but the core group of Miracles pilots. Even hardcore control fanatics would still have plenty of blue control decks to play in the absence of SDT. I am all for diversity and fun - SDT adds very little fun and stifles diversity, and removing it would increase both diversity (in both control and aggro decks) and fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
maybe it is my fault because i should explain everything i say extremely deeply in detail, so i will just repeat my opinion here expanding more. I think that a meta where you have to play 4 force of will 4 ponders and 4 brainstorm is not healthy and something should be done, and....
-- Lemnear : obviously i'm aware that not EVERYONE plays 12x of the cards i listed , but ALMOST EVERYONE plays them. this is enough for me to consider legacy a bad format right now
--- Scjmcc : well, i respect your opinion, but please don't speak like it is the only truth. If you are so convinced of your definitions of healthy and balanced, then i won't use this terms at all, i will just say that the format is bad. i hope you won't try and explain me also the exact definition of bad.
The point is that "this is enough for me to consider legacy a bad format right now" is an honorable, personal opinion, but not a compelling reason for a ban, especially if the sheer tournament attendence hints at the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90