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I'm running 8 MB protection (Chant and Duress) but I've been thinking of switching it to 4 Duress and 4 Pyroblast. The problem I now have is that running 8 protection spell and including Doomsday have made me cut the Chrome Moxes and a Cabal Ritual. Ponder has also been replaced with 4 Tops as well. Is cutting the Moxes ok?
The only thing I'm unhappy with about running Pyroblast over Chant is that you lose the ability to break LED on your upkeep under Chant protection. I guess that a resolved Counterbalance is worse news than individual counters though.
I have been running 8 protection spells and no Chrome Moxen either. I only miss the Moxen after I've resolved Ad nauseam, but a resolved Ad Nauseam is almost always a win either way, with or without the Chrome Moxen. Running SDT's is the consequence of utilizing Doomsday, which I've said is the part I'm a bit iffy with still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensai
As much as I am attracted by the idea of being able to counter CB's with Pyroblast, I think being able to work around Stifles, Spell Snares, Extirpates, and such is much more needed, so I'm sticking with the Chants.
It's always been my strategy since I started using Pyroblasts to not have a set build until I scout the competition first. It allows me to know more fully which is a better choice: Chant or Blasts.
I may try Mox as a singleton (I've been running 3x), but multiples haven't been extremely helpful as Petals normally fulfill the need of free mana.
How many Cabal Rits are you guys running?
Pce,
--DC
I've been running 3 Cabal Rituals. I'm thinking I can up it to 4 if I choose to run only 3 Sensei's since we're only running 1 Doomsday. But I think the card selection provided by Sensei is worth the extra slot.
I play a MTGO version of this deck obviously lacking IGG which hurts, but I can play Demonic Consultation, Mana Crypt, and Vampiric Tutor as singletons.
But I disgress, I play 2 Cabal Rituals, 2 Mox, 2 SDT and 1 Ponder. I've tried lists with 4 SDT and 0 Ponder, and lists with 4 Ponder and 0 SDT, but I think the best is a mix of both. The most common cards I board out are Mox, Ponder, Rushing River, Demonic Consultation, and Cabal Rituals in that order.
I agree that Moxen are only useful after AN, and there have been a few situations where a restrictive life total means I can only draw ~6-10 cards off Ad Nauseum and see only 1 accelerant which is not enough to finish the chain. These situations are few and far in between, so it's not indicative of the overall draws.
I am surprised by the amount of 1st turn kills that the deck has performed, even without protection. Chants have been highly crucial in helping the blue matchup, I'd say moreso than Blast could ever be. I've used them against combo to stall them, and a few times cause them to kill themselves with mana burn - Blasts would never acheive this.
Pyroblasts hits Brainstorm, Ponder, and Mystical Tutor in the mirror.
I'm wanting to see how few C. Rits I can get away with running. I'd like it to only be one, but I'm thinking it will have to be two. I don't want more than two. I think 4x Tops are pretty crucial. They are good for more than doomsday. They are pretty snappy against control and also allow you to play Mystical Tutor as a Demonic Tutor after an Ad Nauseam. In fact, that's initially the reason FT started playing Top. We started playing top before doomsday.
Pce,
--DC
Hi all!
I'm a complete scrub in Legacy. I am playing M:tg for quite some time now (since Masques) but i was always a limited/T2 player. I got convinced by a friend of mine to try some eternal formats, since we have a vintage/legacy league in my town, and he directed me to the Source forum.
The first tournament is next saturday (17.1.). I need to create a deck by that day and get to know the format, at least a bit.
I checked this forum around a bit. I have to admit I dont understand lots of interactions. I like this deck though, and I am fairly sure I can get it assembled in a week or so. This whole topic (and this one too, since it looks like it is a deck of the same archetype) are so overwhelming that I cant read them all, and neither do I understand everything you are saying. I just have to write here, and hope I dont get treated as a spammer, because that is not in the least my intention. I just really need help in understanding how the deck works.
What would be the decklist you would suggest to me, knowing that I am new to the format? I personally like the UB build from the first post, but looking through the topic a bit I see you dont really need 4 Ad Nauseams and that 1 Tendrils is enough. Most of you dont run Pacts either? How come? I figure they are good protection and they dont hurt you when you draw them with Ad Nauseam? Also, how does LED work? If you need to discard your hand, what good does it do? I also have trouble understanding the use of Infernal Tutor... Sorry for being a complete scrub. Perhaps it would be best not to spam the topic and if someone could write me some answers via PM. Just to make it clear, I dont expect to do any good on the tourney, but I would like to know at least a bit how my own deck works, what build I should use, and why :)
Thank all of you for your patience, time and effort in advance.
FrankTheScrubTank
Welcome to Legacy and The Source!Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
For a starter deck in the format, you might want to try something easier to pilot, possibly an aggro deck of some sort. However, if you insist on playing this deck, you'll need a lot of practice.
Arguably more than any other deck, Storm variants have the most customizable decklists. No list is set in stone, as lists vary greatly. It's more of personal preference and meta adaptation whether you run a certain engine or not, or what sort of protection you need.
Pact of Negation has been used, but I think Chant and Duress are much more valuable. If you do go off with Ad Nauseam, you really won't be needing Pact of Negation since you can just cast Chant/Duress before going for Tendrils. It also doesn't protect you from the Infernal Tutor-LED interaction.
As for LED, you typically crack it in response to you playing a spell, most common of which would be Infernal Tutor. When you cast Infernal Tutor, you sacrifice LED in response so that when Infernal Tutor resolves, it would be hellbent, and you search for any card with 3 mana floating from the cracked LED. There are many more examples (but less used than with Infernal Tutor), all of which you'd figure out on your own once you pick the deck up.
Infernal Tutor isn't worthless without LED though, as it can grab additional copies of acceleration or protection to set you up for one big turn.
Uh, I think I covered most of what you asked. Good luck with the archetype.
There is another very important interaction with LED that was not mentioned by kicks_422. If you have an LED in play, you can use a Mystical Tutor to put Ad Nauseam on top of your deck. During your next Upkeep step, you activate LED, discarding your hand. During your Draw step you will draw Ad Nauseam, and you will still have 3 mana floating from your LED activation. Since Ad Nauseam is an instant, you can play it in your Draw step before moving to your Main phase and losing your LED mana. This is another good reason why Pact of Negation is not played much, because it can't protect this play.
Thank you both for your answers! I am thinking about running something like this, please comment on it, I am sure there is lots of room for improvement:
Lands: 14
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
3x Scrubland
(in case i cant get a hold of duals, im thinking 1x plains, 4x swamp, 4x island, and one delta less. on another note, should i run some normal basics anyhow, against blood moon?)
ANT: 4
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Ad Nauseam
Protection: 9
4x Duress
4x Orim's Chant
1x Angel's Grace
Mana: 17
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Chrome Mox
Tutor/Sift: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
Do you think the decklist is solid and why not? :) What should I change? What should I run in the sideboard considering I have no idea what the metagame looks like and what to expect?
Thanks again,
FrankTheTank
Hi. I've been playing this deck with a buddy of mine for about a week now and I must say I like the deck without lions eye diamond. I'll explain why:(1) It's not very good (for me) after ad nauseam. Chrome mox, mox diamond, lotus petal, etc.... is just better early and late game. (2) I'd rather them waste a stifle on a early mox or land than be in mid combo only to have them stifle my lions eye. (3) The best card for it is Infernal tutor and I think there's better draw in this deck than to play four. Don't get me wrong it is super fast if you want to build it that way but I think stoping a few cards short of going off is more important. Here' my version:
1 mox diamond
3 chrome mox
4 dark ritual
4 cabal rit
4 lotus petal
4 pact of negation
4 duress
1 orim's chant
1 echoing truth
4 mystic tutor
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 sensei's divining top
2 infernal tutor
2 angel's grace
2 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
4 polluted delta
3 flooded straind
3 underground sea
1 tundra
1 scrubland
1 swamp
2 island
sb: 3 orims chant
2 wipe away
10 anything
Thanx.
@Frankthetank: I think your manabase needs a bit tweaking. Mine is:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
You don't really need too many duals. You do, however, need basics.
It looks... OK. Like I said, personal preference/playstyle plays a huge role. For example, I have cut the Chrome Moxen as I felt I didn't need the additional mana boost, since I run 4 Cabal Rituals as well. I also run 3 engines (Ad nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Doomsday). By the way, you'll need a back-up plan in case you get to a low life early on, so you should fit in an Ill Gotten Gains somewhere, I'm thinking over the Angel's Grace. Drawing your whole deck is cool, but it's easier to win via IGG at that point than search for Grace.
@sengirvmpr: I really don't think cutting LED from a Tendrils deck is the right decision. It's insane after Ad Nauseam, after you've drawn Infernals/Mystical+Brainstorms. And I don't think the LED ability can be Stifle'd, since it's a mana ability. Also Infernal Tutor isn't only used with LED. There are much wider applications for that.
Lion's Eye Diamond can't be stifled (it's a mana ability).
Also without it it can be difficult to find Tendrils post Ad Nauseam, since your Infernal Tutors are kind of useless (not to mention they would be almost useless altogether in a deck without LED). I suppose this is why you run Angel's Grace, which is pointless in the regular lists, because a 'normal' AN will win anyway - and for the cases, in which it doesn't, you have Ill-Gotten Gains - which again kind of needs LED.
How should Ill-Gotten Gains and Doomsday be correctly played?
The Ill-Gotten Gains is played together with an Infernal Tutor. You make some mana, cast the Tutor (respond by breaking LED's) and search for Ill-Gotten Gains. You then take back the tutor and 2 mana sources (LED's, Dark or Cabal Rituals usually) and cast them and the Tutor into Tendrils. That way, you create plenty of storm for Tendrils to be lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
Note that IGG let's your opponent take back his FoW's as well. Therefore, it's mandatory you resolved a Chant usually (sometimes you can get back 1 mana source, 1 Tutor and 1 Chant or something).
The Doomsday is played with Top, which has some nice synergy with the rest of the deck as well (Mystical Tutor). There are some piles you can make with Doomsday that can win in different situations (trough Chalice, Teeg, whatever). These piles were made by emidln, so all credit goes to him. I hope it's ok i post the link here:
http://www.teambzk.org/public/doomsday-piles.html
Hey,
thanks for Doomsday piles list or to emidln...
How looks your Sb? I'm going to play this deck in a relativley aggresive meta.
My currental list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22206 (1 Chrome Mox instead of the singelton Mox Diamond)
I have no clue yet, because I haven't figured out if a list with Top + Doomsday is better than one with Ponder & IGG.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavaSava
I think I would pretty much always play 4 Serenity SB, as well as 4 Pyroblast to have some plan against Counterbalance. The rest is probably 1-offs. Angel's Grace maybe, The EtW seems good against Sui Black strategy's.
Also, I advise against 4 Chrome Mox. They usually suck enough, let alone drawing multiple.
Could someone give me some solid arguments why I should play Top in this deck? It's effect seems pretty poor for the cost.
Well, like you just said, Top is mandatory if you run the DoomsDay alternative Storm engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
That, and the fact than after AdN you're usually able to generate a bunch of black Mana, but not always the double-U to Mystical+Ponder//Brainstorm into Tendrils.
A lone Mystical + SDT work perfectly here.
The main liability (beside the fact that SDT need more lands to be effective) of SDT over Ponder is that Top slows the deck's Goldfish for a whole turn where Ponder can just draw you the accelerant you need to just go off and win..
So, SDT requires more patience and setup to be effective, the good thing is Top helps you to setup over several turns (when facing hate or real opponents) and shows you more cards (and thus the card//answer you seek) with the deck's 7-8 Fetches than that 1 shot Ponder of yours.