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I would have to agree. I think the decks that pose the biggest problem to storm are miracles and maverick/death and taxes, and both are somewhat low right now. Tempo decks are even, and most of the BGx decks don't have enough to stop a good storm player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
While not strictly 'what should I play in my metageme' I do believe this is the correct topic to ask my question.
During incomming break I intend to introduce two of my friends, a married couple, to Legacy. They have seen Magic before and grasp basic concepts. They are also both very vivid and skilled board game players. What I intend to do is prepare two proxy decks for them, so they can play each other at home.
From what I have gathered from her, Jund seems like type of deck she would enjoy the most. Bolt your board than swing to the dome with cool creatures.
What I am looking for him is a deck that a) will have nice, interactive game with her deck and b) have an even chance of winning, so their results are mostly skill based as they both progress. Point a) is why I did not choose small Zoo for her - not very interactive.
The obvious question to you guys is what deck to choose for him. If you care to elaborate, maybe I should choose a different deck for her as well? As a side question - flavor-wise I think goblins would be very nice for him, but tbh I don't know how gobs fare against Jund.
Maybe shardless? I'm not familiar with the match up, but it seems skill intensive. Or maybe maverick?Quote:
Originally Posted by crow_mw
When I attempted to teach my girlfriend (now wife) to play, I made one single deck. We both drew our cards from the same library, which made it easier for me to explain the interactions of only a single set of cards. It was a goblin deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by crow_mw
Possibly headed to a tourney infested with GBx builds (Shardless Agent likely to show; Jund and Junk also likely candidates), UWx Miracles (including several RIP/Helm builds) and Storm (almost all PiF versions). It's a really hostile meta for Enchantress (well, the Miracles matches aren't that bad), but I'm competent (not amazing) with tempo builds. I was considering the Grixis-Pyromancer tempo deck; discard and counterspells seems pretty strong, all things considered, but I'm not really that familiar with the GBx matchups. Any advice?
As far as the Grixis Tempo deck is concerned GBx decks are largely a favorable matchup in my experience. You've got a 4 pack of Bolts, and should have at least 2 dismembers somewhere in the 75 to eat Goyfs. Shardless in particular is easy, just save any stifles you're running for their ancestral visions/cascade triggers and they have a horrible pile of 1/1's and 2/2's to fight your men. Against them don't worry about stifling their lands (unless they are screwed off of a color already), they run 22-23 and 4 Deathrite Shamans. Save the stifle for their card advantage spells they have and for them trying to wasteland you. Jund is probably closer to even, depending on whether thay can resolve Hymn or Sylvan Library or not. If you can keep them off those 2 spells, and kill/counter their first Goyf or Bob you can probably win the game. Punishing Fire is kind of a bitch to fight through, but the Grixis Tempo deck I have been playing for the last couple months runs a pair of Tombstalkers in the 75 which Jund basically can't ever kill. Junk is probably the hardest of the GBx matchups, because if they resolve an early Mom they can royally screw you in the mid-late game. Thalia is also one of the most painful people for the grixis deck to fight through. Most of your men can't ever profitably attack or block through her, and if they Swords or Decay your Delvers you're basically stuck in a ground stale-mate which they will likely eventually win. Also, if your expected metagame has that many GBx decks, you might consider a 3 Force, 2 Misdirection split in the 75. Misdirecting their Decays to their best card is one of the most satisfying feelings, and will save all your small men from certain uncounterable death. Also, you should probably have 1-2 Perish in the board. It lets you save your spot removal for Bob, and just Perish away all their Goyfs and Deathrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
Hope that helps a little.
That does, actually – thanks!
What would you run in the current MODO metagame?
Choke. Maindeck?
Seriously, MODO is heavily Miracles-infected these days, followed by various kinds of Delver Aggro and a surprisingly high percentage of fast, graveyard-based combo.
Maybe a Junk Build of some kind with Thalia?
How exactly would that solve the metagame? Isn't Junk way more black/discard heavy compared to Dark Maverick? Examples would be here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I'm not too worried about GY-decks since enough tools exist to fight them properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Choke might work against Shardless BUG, but Miracles runs Mystic Gate to get around Choke. Forcing a Choke against Delver Tempo between Daze, Spell Pierce, FoW and mana denial isn't an easy task, though.
Im just throwing out suggestions. Maverick doesnt seem like the worst. You get to beat Delver, and if you get a Mom + Teeg you are in good position vs Miracles. And you have Thalia, Ooze, and such for the Combo decks.
Having Mystic Gate is barely relevant when you're not getting rid of the Choke anytime soon.
However, I'm a bit biased here as I run a deck that Miracles will never side in Enchantment-Removal against, so Choke completly breaks them incredibly hard. I run Elves, btw. Also attacking them with 2 Pithing Needles because I feel Miracles is the bane of the MODO metagame these days.
Maverick is horrible in that meta. Miracles, Elves, Punishing Jund, Shardless BUG and Painter are the top-placing decks and pretty unfavorable match-ups for it. As a Maverick player, I could care less about Delver decks if I actually faced them instead of horrible match-ups across the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Mom + Sylvan Safekeeper + Teeg is your only path to victory against Miracles since they can still bounce Teeg with their copies of Karakas and blow up the world afterwards.
Someone said a list of miracles, delver, and GY based combo. I don't think maverick is awful in that meta. You can tune the deck to have a decent game vs miracles.
Sure, you can do that when you run at least 3 Teegs somewhere in your 75 along with multiple Safekeepers and a full playset of Moms plus some activated ability blockers like Pithing Needle in the board, but Miracles isn't the only match-up to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Elves is an entirely different kind of kind of beast. Teeg stops their GSZ/NO shenanigangs, Canonist can slow them down. Both hatebears require protection, though, since they'll run ADs post-SB. Grafdigger's Cage kinda works here as well and doubles as GY-hate in certain match-ups. One-sided sweepers like Zealous Persecution and E-Plague are decent as well. Jitte is an all-star, but can easily be blanked if they have critter + bouncer. Julian certainly has a better insight on what actually hurts them.
GY decks can be kept in check with DRS, 2 MD Ooze and various hate like Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction, etc.
BUG Shardless overwhelms you Liliana + tons of card advantage, while Jund does so with Liliana + PF. Their DRS make KotR a joke as a threat. Ooze is kinda decent at getting rid of PF, although Surgicals might be required to seal the deal. You can fight fire with with fire (Punishing Fire, to be exact), which is a great card in both match-ups (and fair match-ups in general), at the cost of destabilizing your mana base even further.
Painter is going to love that with their Moon effects. But I don't think this match-up is winable unless you want to tune it especially to beat that deck.
Sneak&Show is doable with SB O-Rings, Pithing Needle effects for their Sneak Attack and MD KotRs. Omnitell sucks, though. (S&T decks are over 10% of the meta)
While not properly represented in that list, you're also going to run into Storm combo which isn't that stellar as a match-up if they win the dice roll. Chances are you're dead before your T2 to get a hatebear online. T1 discard helps here, but that doesn't seem workable if you go for the PF build to beat BUG and Jund.
Maybe I can work something out based on Fabian Görzgen's GP list, but it's a tall order to cram all that stuff into one deck.
My friend played a Maverick list tuned to beat Miracles to a Top8 at GP Ghent last year, one of the most Miracles-stacked Legacy tournament we might have had. It required playing 2-3 Pithing Needles in the sb, 2 Planeswalker (Elspeht & Garruk Relentless) in the main as well as an additional Planeswalker in the sb, among the obligatory Krosan Grips from what I remember.
Beating Miracles is an uphill battle and of course Punishing Fires also sucks, but Maverick is one of the most customizeable decks, so why not play it. Just because of negative EV??
EV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Thanks for the insight. Double PW probably do a good job in the Jund and Shardless match-up as well. With that input, I've modified Görzgen's list for the first, rough draw:
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Punishing Fire
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
That's just a rough draw and the SB probably needs further work. I'm still uncomfortable with auto-losing to Storm combo on the draw. As far as additional PW are concerned, Xenagos might be interesting since his tokens are a full turn faster than Garruks and his colors fit the general build better than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
I just did this because i'm always flaking between ANT and TES.
Step 1: gather a large sample of top16 deck titles from your relevant metagame (i took the last 8 SCG events).
Step 2: Give each deck name a tally for each top 16 placement.
Step 3: Figure out which deck you'd rather be playing against each archetype and note it beside the deck name.
Step 4:
Final TES Score: 79
TES> Reanimator: 11
TES> Elves: 6
TES> Omni-Tell: 6
TES> Sneak Attack: 6
TES> ANT: 4
TES> Goblins: 4
TES> Belcher: 4
TES> Imperial Painter: 4
TES> TES: 4
TES> U/W Miracles: 3
TES> Dredge: 3
TES> MetalWorker: 3
TES> Death and Taxes: 2
TES> Lands: 2
TES> WBR Deathblade: 2
TES> 4c Loam: 2
TES> Affinity: 2
TES> Deathblade: 1
TES> High Tide: 1
TES> 12 post: 1
TES> Oops, All Spells: 1
TES> Dark Maverick: 1
TES> W/B Stoneblade: 1
TES> 4c Cascade: 1
TES> Nic Fit Blue: 1
TES> Punishing Zoo: 1
TES> Aluren: 1
Final ANT Score: 50
ANT> RUG delver: 11
ANT> Shardless BUG: 8
ANT> UWR delver: 7
ANT> Jund: 5
ANT> Merfolk: 4
ANT> Grixis Delver: 3
ANT> 4c Delver: 3
ANT> Burn: 2
ANT> U/R Delver: 2
ANT> BUG delver: 2
ANT> GB LoamPox: 1
ANT> UWR Landstill: 1
ANT> Slivers: 1
So even though ANT is quite a bit better at playing through a lot of the tier one decks. In my opinion TES gets the nod because of its strength vs a diverse field.
My meta is something like this
delver variants - 20%
jace control decks - 15%
cascade midrange - 25%
vial aggro - 20%
other - 20%
Where other consists of the relatively small number of combo decks and the fringe decks. This is only a rough approximation, since there are a bunch of people. Putting Merfolk, Goblins, and Death and Taxes in the same category seems like it might be inaccurate.
The point is that the meta basically lacks combo as a whole and feels fairly hostile to combo.
My current approach has been to play UR delver decks that remove Force of Will for additional burn, which has been a fairly good plan for me so far- Force of Will is definitely not a necessary or good card against what people are doing here and Chain Lightning is very good.
So really, I'm looking for decks that beat almost everything that isn't combo. Guessing the answer is lands, but Wasteland is ubiquitous and Deathrite is prevalent so I'm not sure that's right.