[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Throst54 & DCTopTeam - The explosive power of the straight BG list is what Makes it competitive. There isn't anything wrong with slowing it down but there are things that you begin having to compensate for, many of which you can't anymore. You can compare the 2 versions but, because they function drastically different (even if they share a lot of the same cards) your thoughts will go in many different ways than they would've with the other. Introducing a color presents an entire new slew of problems and solutions.

DC, the reason your deck is still an option is because you are running Dark Ritual to power out quick disruption, and you need a single green for 11 spells in your main. and another handful out of your board. I'm not sure, so I may be wrong when I Throst54 was talking about the GG in the list (I also may be blind). I think he may be on to something with land-bases. Your base is REALLY shaky. Wasteland may be too much of a strain on your deck.

Throst54 is correct when he said that vendetta is not a staple legacy removal spell. It's not good vs the most used creature in legacy (goyf) and it can't kill Bob. But, if you're going into a merfolk and goblins filled meta, it's still going to get the job done better than smother and edict as they will most likely have something for you to kill at the cost of little life or 2.

Throst54 is also correct, in some aspects, when talking about the BGW versions. The biggest difference is that most lists run +20 lands so Wasteland hitting one or 2 is not the worst thing to happen. It's not an auto-lose unless you kept a suspect hand.

To be honest I'm more of a fan of the BGW version but I don't like the aggro approach. It seems that the aggro is what people have been testing the most so it's doing better in tournaments. The BG version of Rock limits its self in more ways. It's not just the Swords and vindicate as removal or even Knight as utility for a land toolbox. Swords gains life against decks you need life, Vindicate beats all permanent problems that come your way, and Knight usually smashes through a goyf after being active for a single turn.

While there are other cards worth splashing for those seem to be the most common. The others seems to be optional or still in testing.

Then there is the next choice of do you go GWb or GBw. both present their own paths to go and can fight the hate (it's rock... +50% vs the field is the objective... still not attained). With a black reach you can play thing like stronghold, which has been a staple in the GBw Rock, and more intense black spells. The white version seems to bring in things like Elspeth, who, can win games all on her own. That's a matter of play style/skill/preference when you get to that point.

The best thing a Rock player can do is not get attached to anything. Some times the best option for the field isn't the best option for us. So, DC, try your list out, make some changes, try it again. You won't know until you test. Who knows, maybe you just broke the format and we're being to critical on it.

PS. Doran... *huh* is an option I think everyone should avoid with their Rock. That's another story though.

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First, what does everyone think of Inquisition of Kozelik? I'm looking at it as a replacement for Thoughtseze. It seems as though it would do just fine. I won't get to test it before the next big tournament but I would like to at least have opinions to think about.

Second, What do people think of Momentous Fall? It seems like an option to me. Testing will show though.

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Thanks a lot! Agree that testing should be done first. I think it would also help to tune the deck based on the meta that is expected. Will test and post results.

I would say that in a way, Inquisition of Koz. could replace either: Cabal Therapy, or Duress, depending on your build. In some ways, if I was running 4 Thoughtseize and say, 2 more Duress, I would definitely test 2 Inquistions and see how it plays out.

I read some posts back that Doran is bad for Rock. I agree for the fact he's 3 colours to play, but I disagree with the fact he's a 5/5 beatstick on turn 3 that makes Goyf better. It makes all Goyfs better, true, but I'm assuming I'll be blowing them up anyway. With a ton of land destruction, I most definitely do see the downside. As of yet, he's still in my build :D

-Matt

The way i see it you already have a straight up huge beater, deck space is tight, if youre going to have any more creatures they better do whatever they are doing better than goyf. IE have CIP effects or have evasion

Well, the only thing I could think of to replace him: Knight of the Reliquary, Finks (but this seems a tad sub-par, but I have yet to try it), or...more Tarmogoyfs :tongue:

-Matt

You've never tried Knight?! She's amazing! I'm not just saying this because you can toolbox around him but because He's easier to cast, as big if not bigger that him after a single activation (waste your own land), creates a options in your manabase, Outs to things like back to basics (that was a fun game), and makes your draws more consistent.

Try the knight. It's a lot better than it seems.

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I understand why everyone hates the idea of limited discard but, when we're using out life as a resource to almost entirely unrestrict it, I'm wondering if it's really necessary. Yes, it has a huge list of cards that it doesn't get but it does get all of the things that the others need to be useful.

Hi guys,
I`ve decided running a Rock with 4 Knights of Reliquary and a litte land toolbox. I`m not a really expierenced Rock player and builder.I`m not sure, if a Knight of Reliquary dependant list is the best, but he could work as a cheap and fast clock and brings in flexibility, twice. So it would be great if you could give me some feedback on the idea and the list.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Theraphy (maybe I should do a 3/3 split)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

3 Sensei`s Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plain

1 Wasteland
1 Volrath`s Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit

Ok that it is. I don`t know exactly how the Sideboard should look. But I will build it balanced for an unknown meta.
Thanks for your answers!

Greetz

I think you probably want dust bowl over wasteland if you just wanna play one as a knight tutor target. Also possibly noble hierarch over birds because you are playing a fairly aggro version. hierarch

i would play bojuka bog over cabal pit, and i do not think that the crucible would be needed

for sideboards, i've come to a conclusion at least for me, i am playing 2 different sideboards, depending on what decks will show up, one of my sideboards is against a meta with a lot of combo, the other one against a meta with a lot of gravebased decks

examples which cards are important in that case:

combo like ANT and Belcher: good are: thorn of amethyst, gaddock teeg

gravebased decks (dredge, reanimator, loam): 4x leyline of the void

an allrounder against a lot of decks in my sideboard is diabolic edict as 4of

first you should allways analise your meta, then build sideboard according to that meta, but i think the other people here are more expierienced and would also like to help you

If you're running a toolbox, go with Bog over Pit. I don't think you even need Wastelock in this type of deck. If you need to win by Wastelock, that's a problem that Mr. Tarmogoyf should have solved. Other than that, Karakas seems good, as with Stronghold. Nice job!

Other than that, your deck seems lean, and I mean that it's missing fatties. No Tombstalker? It justs seems like you have Goyf as a beater, and Knight. This very well may be enough, it's just so used to seeing Goyf, Stalker, and others.

Personally, I'd say -2 Cabal Therapy and try 2 Inquisition of Kozilek. You're already 4 Thoughtseize, but running 4 and 2 "almost' Thoughtseizes may be better.

-Matt

Ok thanks for your answers guys....

bajuka bog over cabal pit seems like a good choice, refferd of the actual meta game I think. I also agree on playing Dust Bowl over Wasteland, if you only run 1. I should having enough mana at the time I search it with the Khnigt. Inquisiton of Eldrazi is an interesting choice, I feel I would like it over the theraphys. But I have to test it out. And yes adding more fatties seems like a good idea, problem is that in my list there isn`t much room for cutting something. Maybe i should cut the random Crucible and one Fink and adding 2 Tombstalker or 2 Spiritmonger. What do you think of Monger? Make the regenaret effect worth it, or is this old school guy to slow :tongue:

Nowadays, regenerate does seem to be as much of an issue. If you were playing Black Green Rock, I'd say yes, but in tri-colour Rock, I'd opt for Tombstalker here. 5/5 is a decent body, and he comes out early due to delve, which makes it the better choice here. Your cuts seem right, and 2 Tombstalker isn't a terrible number, especially since you're running Dark confidant.

-Matt

If you/re going to run Tombstalkers, maybe you should include Hymn to Tourach instead of Inquisition of Kozilek and Dark Ritual instead of Birds/Hierarch? I would also cut a bit on Finks to include some number of Pernicious Deeds.
I like randomness of Hymn more than subparness of Inquisition, tbh.
Just a suggestion, though, lately i try to cut BoP from my lists, cause i like Deeds MD and i think Ritual (while it feels more like Eva Green, i guess) gives unfair advantage in some games. Sure its a dead draw sometimes, but BoP is, too.
Ritual plays so nice with Confidants, Stalkers and Deeds. Although it does feel a bit subpar sometimes in hands with Knights and Goyfs. Either way, i prefer lines of play including Ritual to those including Birds.
F.e.:
Seize->Ritual+Hymn+Goyf or
Ritual+Seize+Confidant or
Seize-> Ritual+Deed (imo better than BoP into Deed)
I dont really try to play my knights that early in the game, so i fuel my early game with rituals and then i play lategame Knights. I dont play Stalkers, though, i tery to play Knights or Stalkers, but not both.

@ sinkhole

I like your list. It's similar to the one I'm currently testing. But, do you really need fatties? With the removal and disruption you're playing, it's unlikely that your opponnent's creatures will be bigger than yours.

This brings me to something else. Lately I'm starting to doubt the Goyf.
Why? Because it's contrary to the Rock's nature. It doesn't bring card advantage - it will be exiled in the turn it hits the table at best, or will be reduced to 0/1 with graveyard destruction at worst. And it doesn't have any other useful ability. I mean - look at the creatures played in the rock during the years:

Yavimaya Elder - card advantage & land tutor
Eternal Witness - card advantage & "graveyard tutor"
Deranged Hermit - card advantage with Phyrexian Plaguelord
Phyrexian Plaguelord - removal
Wall of Blossoms - card advantage
Sakura - tempo advantage
Genesis - card advantage
etc.

Now we have:
KoR - land tutor
Confidant - card advantage
Finks - card advantage
Birds or Hierarchs - speed

Goyf - errr, ...4/5 for 2 mana that will be put to the sword = 2 of my mana for 1 of his mana

It's not that we lack cards for 2 mana and that without the Goyf our mana curve will be distorted.

Any thoughts?

Goyf is stp'd on sight for a reason: The other player is dead if he doesnt kill it.
Isn't that a(the) reason worth using Goyf? ;)
Its a huge clock, for almost nothing.

If Goyf isn't removed, then he's virtual card advantage, simply by being bigger than opposing creatures. If you are against a Zoo player, then they have to spend two burn spells to kill it: card advantage. Rarely is it tempo loss, since it only cost you two mana to play it. The other creatures that you mentioned (Eternal Witness, Wall of Blossoms, etc.) provide card advantage in the strictest definition of the term, but they aren't really card advantage because their bodies are too small nowadays. Think about it this way: Goyf is basically a better Wall of Blossoms in terms of card advantage; although it doesn't cantrip, it can blank two opposing creatures (say, two Qasali Pridemages that would have been able to attack past a Wall of Blossoms but not past a Goyf) and provides a clock all on its own.

So I think we haven`t discussing cutting Goyf. :wink: He`s the most and best undercosted Vanilla Magic has been ever seen, every green Deck have to run it. He say: Handle me or you die! And if he gotten the Sword, how cares now your Confidant or something other is save for a while time.

@ zalachan:

I don`t want running Hymn and Ritual in a Gwb Rock, yes it can allow you sick 1. Turns like Eva Green does it. But Ritual can`t afford all the G/W Cards. Bird is more consistent, because you got the mana for more times, which is need in a mana hungry deck like Rock. But in an agressiv G/B Build i would run it. Also I`m not a fan of Pernicious Deed if you playing no recursion over witness and not much real fatties, which can survive your own deed.

@Sinkhole:

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I don`t want running Hymn and Ritual in a Gwb Rock, yes it can allow you sick 1. Turns like Eva Green does it. But Ritual can`t afford all the G/W Cards.

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True that. Thats why im running Pernicious Deed instead of Finks. But its personal preference and i dont like Birds alongside my Deeds.

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Bird is more consistent, because you got the mana for more times, which is need in a mana hungry deck like Rock.

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Your curve stops at 3, if you play tight and dont overextend, you will do off 4 lands just fine. Additional lands are plus and make Rock execute its plan better, but you can play just as fine with less. And Knight is also a BoP, if you want her to, intimidating opponents in the processs.
Sure, its nice to play anything you want on turn 2 off birds. But do you really thing the one-two punch the Bird provides is the thing you need? I would rather play more StP efects, stall early game with Goyf and Finks, to survive until Deed/Knight/Elspeth and go from there. I see BoP spot as Elspeth in my list, thats why i cant justify birds, sorry :)

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Also I`m not a fan of Pernicious Deed if you playing no recursion over witness and not much real fatties, which can survive your own deed.

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Sure, if you want to play more controlish build, dont run Ritual, simple :) But i wouldnt run control without deed. And you seem to play too many low cmc creatures to really play "control" style. I would at least drop confidants and birds.
I guess you are referring to "fatty" as to creature with cmc higher then the desirable X on deed you want to cast. I would only cast Goyfs and Finks before my deed, as i see them defending me just fine until Elspeth and Knights mop up. Low cmc of said finishers does not make them bad finishers, the only bad thing is that you cant deploy them in face of Deed.

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But in an agressiv G/B Build i would run it.

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Consider this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27943 decklist.
Sure, it plays and looks (kinda) like Eva Green, but its not. Its as rocky as it needs to be and has some strengths over Evas.
While Ritual may seem underwhelming in some situations (i know, its the opposite of what Witness and friends in Rock are all about), you can save it to punch trough something big a turn (or two) later. It will never go hand in hand with Knight, but both cards are pretty broken on their own, so this isnt much of an argument.
Also, i see the knight as "finisher" you mentioned. No need to feed it to deed, just drop it right after. You could also try and squeeze Stronghold in there and have more options. If you don't like Scullers, you could try Nighthawks. Not as good as Finks, but still good imo.
With Hymn, Toughtseize, Sculler and LD package you *actually* have a fighting chance against combo pre-board. Not a high chance, mind you, but higher than in "Land, Bird, go" situation.

Eva green is all about sui tempo, and that deck isnt too much of either.

Goyf is good in rock because it gives you a clock, often times before goyf you could have complete control of the game and then loose because they were able to recover faster than you could find your win condition and have it go all the way.

I moved away from Birds a long time ago, they arent bad but they are too conditional for me. Its either Sakura Tribe-Elder or Veteran Explorer for me.

i can just agree with throst54 on the bird-thing, i played them for a while, played sakura tribe elder as well, though i liked the elders more, they were all cut from my list, and right now i'm fine with 22 länds and low-cost beaters (though i still havent got 4 goyfs, **if someone knows where to get cheap ones please tell me**)
actually due to the lack of the whole playset of goyf i often lacked a good clock, but i think 7 creatures as a clock should be enough........ to make the lack of goyfs more acceptable i'm playing 2 swords of light and shadow (which are quite good to recover from a deed), to be able to make all the creatures i have a clock, and protect them from the most common removal

but i think i'll cut the swords and the singleton duress(only got 3 thoughtsieze) so i would have a 6 targeted discard-package, to improve the combo-matchup a bit

everyone died on this thread? its quite some time now since last time anybody wrote something

so i'll start with the writing again, has anyone tested now if inquisition of kozilek could really replace thoughsieze, or is it just supbar in comparison to it?

and di someone test the stoneforge mystic package with jitte and sword of fire and ice and sword of light and shadow?