is closing the vial affinity thread up for discussion ? since vial is out and affinity is only thoughtcast
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is closing the vial affinity thread up for discussion ? since vial is out and affinity is only thoughtcast
Branching off the discussion into New & Developmental sounds plausible to me. There are very different approaches, some or all of which may eventually become Established after Besieged gets tournament-legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusian
I've been playing 3x Phyrexian Revoker maindeck and he's been great, although I think I would only play him maindeck if you're running Steel Overseer, since a 2/1 often does not want to attack unless buffed by Overseer or Master. I'm also loving the addition of Ancient Tomb to support Tezz. Darksteel Citadel+Tezz=Indestructible 5/5. I'm also leaning toward -1 land (15 total) and adding the fourth Springleaf Drum. I'm still liking my Confidant+Overseer build (even with Thoughtcast).
Tezz is interesting and upon making a double take on what exactly he does I've been curious as to how to plug him in. but I only see him as 2-3 of to give us some reach aside from Disciple if you still run him. I've personally tried ditching Disciple for Signal Pest and I like the speed although I don't know how much I'll miss the range on a gummed up board.
Signal Pest seems to be getting the job done and drops early enough to sneak in some hits with Thopters and Memnites but is still relevant later on.
As you can see I still run Vials and since I put in Bobs and Mystics for my CA. I find that Bobs and Thoughtcast are totally different and shoulndn't be compared. Bobs give you CA farther into the game and should be played after initial threats. Thoughtcast gives you gas now to win next turn or so. When played right Bobs IMO get you farther.
Here's my list for reference.
Creatures:
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Signal Pest
4 Master of Etherium
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Other Spells:
4 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
2 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid
2 Ancient Tomb
SB:
2 Tormods
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Etched Champion
1 Ronom Unicorn
1 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip
Signal Pest is the shit.
Thoughtcast >>>>>>>> Dark Confidant. Confidant just doesn't fit in very well in this deck. Thoughtcast and Cranial Plating should both be an automatic 4x. They're probably the two best cards in the deck.
I run both Thoughtcast and Bob. Card advantage wins games. Lands+zero drops makes up for random 5-damage from Thoughtcast. Plus, they usually kill Bob before anything else, which is 1 less removal for your aggro critters.
Yes Signal Pest is.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Ragu
I'd really beg to disagree on the Thoughtcast vs Bob thing. They work in two completely different ways. Thoughtcast gives you more cards to use ASAP. Bob on the other hand works as longer term card draw, a lightning rod, and yes, occasionally a beat stick. The Key to bob is playing him after threats. After you've landed your hand is ideally when you play him. It's either they use removal on that Master you dropped the previous turn or take a beating and "waste" removal on Bob. And you can always Vial him in so the decisions become a bit trickier for your opponent.
But I'll agree that Plating in most lists should be a 4 of. I've always played as much of it as I could tbh. But I decided to cut it down due to my Mystics played main. And they pan out well as 2 and since I have a Jitte for those times where they aren't what I need.
To everyone that is testing Phyrexian Revoker:
What are you usually naming in each matchup? Have you tried using it with Canonist against combo?
Naming LED when you know you are facing combo seems like the most obvious way to go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pltnmngl
1. If MoE is a game-winner in a given game and you have reason to suspect the opponent has removal, you want Confidant out first to draw the removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by hypaflight
If not, a good opponent won't waste removal on it anyway.
2. An early Confidant draws more cards. The opponent doesn't always have removal immediately.
3. Mana-curving generally calls for Confidant out first.
4. Giving the opponent a choice you could make for him is rarely a good strategy, at least not against a good player.
In addition to above:
5. If you have already established/run out of your threats = got to 3 lands and 4 overall mana, why not run something that maximizes the utility of this "leftover mana" or "curve-out". For example, running Jace 2.0 (which immediately brainstorms 3 top cards instead of Dark Confidant's 1 top card next turn) or Tezzeret 2.0 (which immediately creates virtual card advantage by turning "useless" lands into relevant 5/5 creatures) instead of Dark Confidant?
I'm sorry, but if you don't plan to drop Dark Confidant early in the game to generate card advantage over time, there are simply better choices to be run instead of him as the "end-game cards".
Confidant is pretty useless in the late game. Thoughtcast is always beneficial to draw into.
Confidant is just wrong. Affinity should imo stay out of the long game. Isn't its strength supposed to be its speed?
We should make affinity as fast as possible as that's probably where the most successes are to be achieved. Affinity just doesn't have the tools to combat in the long game.
Or am I wrong?
You're right and you're wrong. Affinity's strength, and we're talking pre-SOM traditional builds here, was its speed. But its greatest weakness and the reason it wasn't a tier deck in Legacy is because it had no disruption and no meaningful interactions. Lots of decks in Legacy are fast. But ANT is a dozen times stronger than SI because it can do more than goldfish and hope the opponent can't answer it. And that's all Affinity did. It had no disruption. Goblins is fast and it packs 6-8 mana disruption lands and 4-8 removal spells between Gempalm, Stingscourger, Lightning Bolt, Sharpshooter and SGC. It can win turn 3-5 and still interact. Affinity is the same speed but lacking the interactions. Fish kills slightly slower but has even more interactions with Force, Daze, Pierce and Wasteland as well as Reejery to temporarily remove blockers. Affinity has Plating on Ornithopter. That's your big trump. But with Revoker and Cannonist, you have a disruption plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat
Faster isn't necessarily better. Most Zoo decks have gone away from Lynx builds and towards Punishing Fire builds. You have worse speed but better interaction and mid-late game card advantage. And while you might think Thoughtcast is good, it's not on par with Standstill or Ringleader. I think (and this without testing, so take it with a grain of salt) that Shared Discovery or Ancestral Visions or Standstill would be better for this deck.
Whether or not the disruption and reach available to Affinity is on par with Fish/Goblins I don't know, but it will have to get there before Affinity can become a serious contender. Having excellent disruption against combo isn't as relevant as having excellent game against blue, but it's a step in the right direction.
The thing is Bob is always good played early or late. If I have nothing better to drop then I'll drop him early. If it eats removal then it saved a threat later on. If I play it after threats, which I believe is better than it standing there alone, then it poses a huge problem for my oppenent since it gives me huge stream of gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzzle
So I agree with points 1, 2, and 3 it just really depends on the situation. As for 4, what choice are we talking about here?
And for point 5. It's really simple, Bob is cheap, has a body, and interacts well with Vial. He isn't a "late game card" and I'm not lobbying for Affinity to have a late game. Affinity has no business planning for a late game guaranteed. What I'm thinking about is slowing the deck down a little to give it more relevance mid game. This way the deck still has the nut draw to win with early beats but also has the versatility in utility creatures through Bob and Mystic to win mid game.
I just honestly think Bob, having a body, and acting as a rod are two good reasons to play him. If you got removal then you got me, if you don't then you're screwed. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the way he's relevant to other decks anyway?
With Ichor Wellspring and Tezzeret 2.0 becoming tournament-legal, we may now have a contender:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...antrip-Ravager
I think most of the lists in here are going in the wrong direction. test this list and see if it works better for you:
Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Signal Pest
2 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Ornithopter
Artifact Lands
2 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
Legendary Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtcast
Artifact Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
Quote:
The goal of the list i posted is to win consistently on turn 3. If you do not win on turn 3, you are VERY vulnerable to things like null rod, Pernicious Deed etc.
This is why it does not play master of etherium, Tezzeret etc.
There are 3 cards in the deck for "lategame inevitibility", the 2 etched champions and 1 thopter foundry. These are a better choice than confidant or tezzeret for two reasons: they synnergize better with the rest of the deck and they can help you win on turn 3 with an acceleration heavy draw.
The sideboard is focused on combo because that is by far your worst matchup.
To elaborate a bit more, winning more quickly than the tribal decks is vital as well. There is no way you can compete with the card advantage of a goblin ringleader or huge merefolk in a long game. You simply need to win first.
A little more would be nice though. Why do you think people in the thread are heading the wrong way? What strengths does your list provide that the others lack?Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
Giving more substance than just a list is helpful.
The goal of the list i posted is to win consistently on turn 3. If you do not win on turn 3, you are VERY vulnerable to things like null rod, Pernicious Deed etc.
This is why it does not play master of etherium, Tezzeret etc.
There are 3 cards in the deck for "lategame inevitibility", the 2 etched champions and 1 thopter foundry. These are a better choice than confidant or tezzeret for two reasons: they synnergize better with the rest of the deck and they can help you win on turn 3 with an acceleration heavy draw.
The sideboard is focused on combo because that is by far your worst matchup.
Thank you for elaborating :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
I agree with this to an extent. The faster you win the less vulnerable you are to the hate cards, but i think this can be alleviated depending upon the matchups your facing and which hate you're expecting. I've been testing a Tezzeret Artifact Aggro list (I'm not calling it affinity anymore when at the moment i'm running a whole of 6 cards of affinity) that has been showing some promise. Running non-artifact lands (Ancient tomb, islands) and Phyrexian Revoker has helped limit the impact of Deed/Vial/etc.... but Null Rod i have no maindeck out to aside from just hope what i've got on the board can turn sideways and get there. However, i don't expect to see Null Rods anywhere near as often as Deeds. So that's something to consider when deciding what direction you wish to go with the deck. However I do feel my deck is leaning more towards an aggro-control deck, so my take away is going to be different than yours.
I'll give your list some testing as the more aggressive option while I'm trying to refine my list, and come back with some results.