[Deck] Aggro Loam

man i really love your list, it looks just awesome, the only thing i would change is chalice to thoughtseize, and smother+GftT to Swords to Plowshares, and adapt the sideboard to my meta.... really awesome list

i have tested Dark Dephts in a rock-shell with living wishes, and found the win-con really nice, specially with recursion
in your deck this win-con more seems on paper like a plan B but with knight usable at wish, which is really nice

i definitely like your dephts- list way better than anyone i have seen before, and maybe i will switch my rock-build to your list, as they are alike

congratz for the nice finish as well

Thanks aggro steve... yep I think the list has potential.... could use a lil more work... however...

In all honesty, Dark depths is plan B and thats the way I designed the list.However, it seems that I won more out of plan B than anything else...

The main reason I went chalice is to have a permanent protection for Marit Lage. Thoutseize protects it, but not for a long time... CHalice also protects Kotr and confidant at times from those 1 cc removal..I think chalice hits a lot of things still although other people think that chalice sucks in todays meta.

So I don't think ill be looking at thoughtseize right now, or stp. However if you do test it, please do inform me of how it goes for you...

Right now my list would be
-1 vindicate +1 EE and maybe move the vindicate to the sb..since more and more ppl are using planeswalkers.
Im still thinking about replacing VIndicate with Maelstrom pulse...but I will have to test it still.. it may make the mana base much easier to deal with since the only real white youll have is Kotr and stp from the side...

Congrats! What did you win?

-Matt

@sdmatt
lol... standard packs.. which really sucked because there is nothing I want in m12... I just sold them cheap to quickly get rid of them...and use the money to buy something else...

Got crushed today using sdematt's list around page 27. I lost to BW Junk/Deadguy and 1-drop zoo. BW just had everything, elspeths, bitterblossoms, stoneforges. I kept killing their stuff off but every card they play is just such a huge threat that I can't really deal with it after a while, I run out of answers.

1drop zoo consistently killed me before I could stabilize. One game I had loam+assault going but he just stuck a library and I was already at low life (t1 guide t2 guide + nacatl, t3 nacatl + goyf took me down fast) and he kept paying life to draw into burn spells while keeping himself out of range (I douldn't hit a cycler), and just burned me out. Was a bit of bad luck on my part, but when his creatures have 3 toughness and my burn spells deal 2 it's pretty awkward.

I beat another guy playing the same BW deck, but he got screwed both games and I also got loam+wasteland online along with grove+fire, and everything he plays has 2 toughness. The guy I lost to had obliterators, and once he put a sword of feast and famine on them I had absolutely no way of dealing with them.

Obliterator is a pretty corner case card. If you're supremely concerned, run Terminates and Smothers again, or Terminates over Smothers. It doesn't personally come up that much for me, since I usually just blow them out with Loam + Assault, or just Fires or Wasteland. Not hitting a cycler also sucks.

Play the deck against U/W Stoneblade pre and postboard, play against Merfolk pre and post, play against RUG pre and post board. You'll like those matchups, I think. Nothing's 80-20, but it can be pretty decent for you. Racing Progenitus with Seismic Assault is hot stuff.

-Matt

Placed third at the local Legacy, losing only to the guy who took first, who was playing a unique Junk/Loam hybrid. I lost game 1 due to not Loaming on Turn 2, since he wasted me out then Loamed himself and I never drew another land again.

Game 2, He Extirpated away my first Loam, I wished for the one in the Board, then he Extirpated that. It was just plain awkward.

But, he was playing a build that I may or may not post (I have to ask him if it's alright). It seemed pretty solid.

I was also postulating an alternate 4C build, and screwing consistency. I want to see if there's a better 4C option than just playing Micah's list. My list so far seems decently greedy, but it has a main card change that I think is pretty key. I'll post when I can.

-Matt

So this is my "super-all-in" list that I've been dreaming up. It doesn't play Assault (although it really should to be truly all in).

The deck my friend was playing was using Entomb to get Loam, and it was super good to him. It also allowed him to bin Worm Harvest, a creature, Volrath's Stronghold, Punishing Fires, Grove, Wasteland, Cycling land, etc. To be honest, I almost want to play Entomb in my build, but there's no space.

The List

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Grove
5 Cycling Lands
6 Fetches
6 Duals
1 Stronghold

4 Mox Diamond
3 Life form the Loam
2 Burning Wish
3 Entomb
2 Sylvan Library
2 Punishing Fire
2 Smother
3 Vindicate

3 Knight
4 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore (I'll probably add another to my RGB build. He was VERY good, even against Crypts and such).
4 Tarmogoyf

BOARD
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Loam
1 Pulse
1 Perish
1 Tariff
1 Worm Harvest
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Extirpate
2 Grip
1 Grudge
1 Hull Breech
1 Thrun

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In all honestly, I really want a Buried Ruin and a Riftstone Portal, but there's no slots. Entomb is SUPER DUPER good though. It makes Stronghold that much better, and it gives you more ways to get Loam or the combo online. It's also nice to have a way to tutor for a cycling land or Karakas.

Thoughts? Again, this is totally untested, but I just wanted to put Entomb out there.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nayon

Got crushed today using sdematt's list around page 27. I lost to BW Junk/Deadguy and 1-drop zoo. BW just had everything, elspeths, bitterblossoms, stoneforges. I kept killing their stuff off but every card they play is just such a huge threat that I can't really deal with it after a while, I run out of answers.

1drop zoo consistently killed me before I could stabilize. One game I had loam+assault going but he just stuck a library and I was already at low life (t1 guide t2 guide + nacatl, t3 nacatl + goyf took me down fast) and he kept paying life to draw into burn spells while keeping himself out of range (I douldn't hit a cycler), and just burned me out. Was a bit of bad luck on my part, but when his creatures have 3 toughness and my burn spells deal 2 it's pretty awkward.

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Burning Wish -> Devastating Dreams is how you solve the one-drop Zoo problem. That, and COTV out of the board. Otherwise, you're probably done for even with Fires/Grove or Assault. In fact, DD pretty much dominates any non-blue aggro deck atm.

I tried running Buried Ruin for EE recursion, but it just felt really clunky in actual play. Losing the land always seemed to hurt more than I thought it would, and another colorless source was a strain sometimes.

Also, I'm assuming Stronghold is supposed to be in that list somewhere?

Yeah, I forgot it. I wrote that at 1AM after a 4-hour test.

-Matt

Here is a list I am going to be probably trying at the next Legacy event:

3 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Go for the Throat



I played 4c loam last weekend, and I think it is just not necessary, the mana is bad and KoR does not get you enough to sacrifice the consistency of 3 colors.

Since I am not running KoR, i took out the p.fires/grove combo as it is just too unreliable w/o running 3-4 ofs of each.

Thoughts?

You should replace 1 Pulse and 1 Go for the Throat with 2 EE. This gives you flexibility without having a high mana cost, or being able to split the manacost across several turns. This is very useful against SFM (X=2), speed Zoo (X=1), Storm combo (X=0), and planeswalkers (X=4). You do lose the ability to recur, but that's also the case with Pulse and GftT.

Go for the Throat should be Smother. For consistency's sake, I'd actually add a Mountain. I miss having 2 Mountains all the time, since you can just fetch for all basics and profit like a champ.

I think 1 Pulse should be an EE, but you want small removal like Smother also. I'd honestly just go to 2 EE at 61. You go through so much of you're deck with Loam, it's not a huge deal.

-Matt

i have a problem w/ ee in this deck, there is almost never a way to get a 2 for 1 from it and it is very slow, 5 mana to kill a 3 drop, and your opponent is very rarely going to have more than 1 in play and u still be in the game and have 5 mana available to do it.

second of all, the deck also plays everything from 0,2,3 in it, so the only thing i see ee doing is killing some 1 drops in zoo, vial/cursecatcher in merfolk and 0 vs storm seems pretty irrelevant usually because they don't play the 0 drops until youre going to lose anyway.

i think go for the throat or lavamancer has to be the play in that slot.
i went w/ go for the throat because tombstalker is a real card and they play daze so mpulse is a bad out.

im not sure why ee was played in this deck, i guess because mpulse did not exist and more people played 1 drop creatures like nacatl/mongoose that you wanted to kill.

i do want something better than go for the throat/terminate in the deck, maybe it is just correct to go w/ 2 punishing fire in that slot and play up to 2-3 groves.
but they do not answer tombstalker/goyf and those are real threats.

Since you're online wait for the rest of my response.

I love Grove in this deck, it's amazing. It's another Taiga source, which is a plus, and supports recurrable rape-trains. Clique? Fuck that. Confidant? Die in a fire. Grim Lavamancer? Burn. Block your Goyf with my Goyf, then Fires. Profit! Run it as a 3-of.

2 Taiga
1 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
+3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Now you're at 27 Lands, which is think is fine. Your manabase is now very solid as well, more basics are good.

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Go for the Throat

-1 Pulse
-1 Dreams (with blue decks, you honestly can't afford to get there all the time with this).
-2 Go for the Throat (Tombstalker is a card, but you have Assault, which is also a card).

+2 Punishing Fires
+2 Smother (Phyrexian Revoker, Factory, and Dreadnought are also cards)

I don't know what kind of meta you're in, but I'd suggest something like:

3 Perish (honestly, Progenitus sucks balls. I hate that asshole so much).
2 Thrun (fuck decks with Removal. Team America, Stoneblade, Zoo, Rock, screws Submerge etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (Batterskull, Crucible, Shackles, etc.)
1 Ancient Grudge (more value)
1 Dreams (for your Zoo matchup)
+6 slots (this can be Crucibles, Entombs, Needles, Deeds, etc.)



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On a side note, with Clique being very popular in the format, just a few things:

1) If you have Loam, and only one Loam, don't Dredge it during your draw phase if possible if they have mana open for Clique. They'll just take it end of draw. If you can, Dredge during your main using a Cycling land, then cast it immediately. It leaves no time for them to Clique you.

2) Same with Fires. Don't keep that card in your hand at the end of a turn. Ditch it/use it when possible, or save it for when they Clique you, and just blast the dude when they play it. Sure, they'll get a Cliquing, but not a 3/1.

3) Bring in Grips if you suspect Crypt/Relic. It seems so simple, but so many people just don't bother. Many people get super greedy with Crypt, so if you can have them not activate right away, which most people won't, Grip them, or use Grudge to force them to Crypt away what you have.

4) You can respond to Extirpate using Grove's ability, since it is a mana ability, iirc. Also, it'll trigger an ability, which still go on the stack. Triggers still trigger with split second.

-Matt

You have to be patient with blue decks and Dreams, but the ubiquitous adoption of Mental Misstep (at the expense of other countermage) has made Devastating Dreams a much, much less risky card to play. Merfolk will have to FOW one of your huge threats and go down to one or zero cards, after that you can play around Daze/Cursecatcher easy, Dreams X=4 and burninate their board.

Dreams pretty bad against slower blue decks with Jace and other strong card draw. I agree with the MTGO lists and run Bloodbraid Elf out of the board in the place of Dreams, since the three damage haste usually kills a freshly played Jace and your cascade spell is usually bonkers since all the spells in the deck (save Mox Diamond) are so powerful.

Fire/Grove is awesome as this deck is one of the few decks in the format-along with the control decks, but most of them haven't wised up to running it yet-where you can reliably make the 5-6 mana to really be able to use the card for board control until you draw some huge green or red monster to kill them with.

sdematt,

maybe the correct number is a 3/3 split of pfires/groves w/o kor in the deck?
maybe 2 pfire/3 grove is enough w/ 2 sylvan libraries. has this at all been tested in a version w/o kor?

i do like mpulse a lot, i think 3 is the right number in my mind.
you're right about dreams, i think i'll try 2. it is clunky if you draw multiples at times.

i can see a case for smother vs gftt and vice versa, but maybe then i can just run terminate and stretch my mana a bit, but at least it is unconditional.
because you're always going to have red and black is needed for all of them anyway.

i guess you can be on awkward turtle mana like mox diamond & forest for your only lands... idk how often that happens.

i was thinking the same thing about terminate and smother

has anyone more expierience with both of them in this deck, why going for smother if terminate is better, and in theory we should be allways able to cast both of em, or am i wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i was thinking the same thing about terminate and smother

has anyone more expierience with both of them in this deck, why going for smother if terminate is better, and in theory we should be allways able to cast both of em, or am i wrong?

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I don't see any reason why Terminate shouldn't be run in place of Smother. The deck already has abundant access to :r: mana. When I played the deck extensively 18 months ago, I was using EE in place of Terminate however. Both work just fine.