Printable View
I heard about people on MTGS having trouble against UR Delver but I don't see why. I tested against it IRL today. I went 5-1 preboard and 2-1 postboard. Surprisingly good matchup. They rarely get a savage clock.
I also went 3-4 preboard against BUG control and 5-6 post-board. Its like 45% matchup I'd say. They run 3 Forces and Spell Snare is often dead, while Daze can be played around. Spell Pierce is the most dangerous threat til post-board Flusterstorm.
It looks like the card we fear most has gone from being a 4 of' staple in control and tempo decks to being a solid 3 of'. Good news for SI players. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...ity=Birmingham
7 of the decks in this top 16 SCG Legacy Open were control or tempo decks. 6 of those 7 only played 3 Force of Will in the maindeck. A few played the 4th in the sideboard.
Tempo and Control players also seem to be playing fewer copies of Daze. Granted, PSI has an easy time playing through a single Daze given ESGs and multiple initial mana sources. Snare and Pierce tend to be run together in a split. I'd say Pierce is easily the most dangerous one we can run into next to Force. Snare doesn't scare me as much because we play D4's as our primary business spells. When I faced down a Daze, Snare, FoW countersuite against UR Delver, I had an easy time, pre and post-board. Pierces are definitely what made the matches against BUG control more difficult.
Just figured I'd check in with you guys on a little metagame analysis.
Past in Flames looks better and better. I'll be testing the following changes soon:
-1 Wild Cantor
-1 Slithermuse
+1 Tinderwall
+1 Past in Flames
I might wind up needing the Cantor for the initial black source but I can't think of anything else to cut, except maybe the extra Tendrils. If I find myself needing Cantor in testing, then I'll drop ToA for the Cantor. PiF is just too good not to run more copies of it. When I play it after maybe a D4 or two, I win... easily. Its about time we tried upping the count to see how it affects consistency. Especially when you can safely draw PiF LED with mana floating and it doesn't matter the rest of your hand because that allows you to resolve the graveyard for the kill. Also, its great against control. A few times against UR Delver, I baited with a D4. Layed down a 2nd perp IMS, and tried for Belcher, then layed down LED and resolved my graveyard for the kill with PiF. Against Control, LEDs are usually useless because you basically have to make a last ditch effort with IT + LED into a kill condition. However, PiF ensures they will give you another out.
EDIT:
Also, its worth sharing this hand I had against Delver:
LED x4, Dark Ritual, Past in Flames, Infernal Tutor (on the draw, draw cabal Ritual)
You can imagine what happened after that.
FoW on Tutor, Stifle on Tendrils ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Actually no. thats 4 storm from LEDs, 1 from Pif so 5
then Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, IT gets you to 8, and then IT once more into Tendrils for the kill. He didn't have Force. I think he had a Daze or a Spell Pierce or something but that didn't help him at all. Its hard to beat that hand with countermagic like Spell Pierce. :P
Aww, come on. Let the little blue mage have his dream :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
More testing... still against BUG control.
Went 4-3 pre-board, 4-1 post-board. Same board I've been playing. Deed and Pulse wrecked me a few times. Still, landing Belcher pretty much seals the game if you have 1 or 2 perpetual mana sources.
EDIT:
Just wanted to say I just won (on Cockatrice) through an active Counterbalance and SDT... and Jace, with a Geist out. How many combo decks can do that? >:]
And Force x2 Pierce if you want to count that but that was early/mid game. Duress took his EE early. He didn't counter the Carpets on purpose cause he was going to get both of them with EE, but they fucked him up in the end as I proceeded to just topdeck business every 2 cards. Small EtW killed his Jace. ESG and SSG stood in the way to block his Geist as Belcher got there with double LED on the field.
EDIT:
I'm testing this board online ATM..
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
PiF is just so good that I want to see how effective it is in the post-board against control. SSG's are to help facilitate EtW and occasionally I just play them out to block stuff like Geist (happened in my last match) when I'm sitting on wayy too much mana with Carpet of Flowers. Its kinda hilarious how many dudes you can wind up playing if you keep topdecking ESGs and SSGs. Also, small EtWs can apply pressure really well when my opponent feels safe enough to drop a Jace.
MD I also changed -1 Tendrils, +1 Tinderwall.
Vacrix, with that set-up, aren't you worried that you're cold to hate bears such Gaddock Teeg?
Or do you do as I do and just go off before Teeg/Thalia/Canonist enters play? :laugh:
Pretty much. Its ballsy, but you have to be ballsy to play this deck anyway. Hoping to draw one of 2-4 Deathmark/Pact isn't really a consistent way to beat bears. I'd rather prepare for countermagic.
I'm testing 2 Mirri's Guile and 2 extra Bayous in the post-board. So far its been really sick but I don't have enough data yet.
I'm about to test a new SB. Thoughts appreciated:
SB
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Mirri's Guile
Mirri's Guile functions kind of like a 5th Carpet of Flowers as its a perpetual resource that helps you sculpt. It really does help you go off with the right resources sooner than just waiting in topdeck mode.
Empty the Warrens is a fantastic plan against decks that don't play sweepers, so basically tempo.
Taiga helps facilitate Past in Flames and EtW, provides you with more perpetual mana sources, and adding it in doesn't really hurt Charbelcher THAT much because its a mountain so you have less of a chance of misfiring with it.
The Bayou I started playing before I considered Taiga and its been fucking awesome for slow rolling. I might cut it if I misfire too often with Belcher after boarding in 2 lands.. but Wasteland hurts and more perpetual mana sources gives you a better long game against control.
I think the second Bayou is too risky. A second Mirri's Guile actually seems like it would be more useful in place of that against control decks. That way you're only increasing your consistency in the long game rather than gambling a self blowout for perpetual mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Got 26th at SCG Madison yesterday running this...
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wild Cantor
1 Odious Trow
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Past in Flames
1 Slithermuse
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Culling the Weak
2 Manamorphose
SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Manamorphose
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Unmask
Record was 5-2-1. I was 18th going into round 7 and got paired up to the guy in first so we drew. Then round 8 I was 11th going into it and it looks like the UR Delver player that beat me got 9th. Too bad :[
Anyway, I lost to BUG in round one and U/R delver round 8. Only other blue I faced was a RUG deck in round 3 or 4. He got the belcher on turn 1 or 2 both games. My other matches were not blue and as such were wins.
I can't do much of a report as I don't take notes or anything. My wins really just consisted of people dying before they did anything anyway. I love this deck so much.
Unmask was awesome. Carpet was sad in round 8 game 2 when the delver player led with a basic mountain. In both games of that last match I got mediocre draw fours. Had they been better I would have had him easily. I think it's partially my fault? I had no idea those decks ran so little counter magic.
Didn't run into any Leyline of Santicty this time around? I played you in a Big 1.5 at Monster's Den a few months ago. I was playing the Goblin deck with an inappropriate amount of combo hate in the sideboard. It was really cool seeing so many players from the Den make good showings in Madison. Congrats on the finish!Quote:
Originally Posted by kusumoto
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I didn't see any of those. I always board in 1 EtW just in case if I think it may be there in a matchup, but it was never an issue. All of the nonblue decks were running nonsense like discard and hatebears. I only lost to a hatebear one game against deadguy because I wasn't able to combo before it came down. Usually I can just race bears.
Congrats on finish. Your sideboard seems quite interested, mind commenting on your general boarding strategies? In particular EtW and the Charbelchers.
I do a lot of really awkward sideboarding with the deck. The primary purpose of EtW is so that I can just ignore Leyline of Sanctity. It can also fill some of the same roles as belcher though.Quote:
Originally Posted by lord09
The main use of belcher is against blue and flusterstorm. Obviously flusterstorm can't hit it. With blue decks the idea is that it's a low investment threat when you're grinding out games with carpet.
I almost always board out slithermuse for belcher or etw in all postboard games. A lot of times I will reduce the number of tendrils against blue decks for the low investment belchers and sometimes a miser EtW. I always leave in at least one tendrils though.
Unmask usually replaces some number of parts of the pact package. I always remove 2-4 Culling the weak against blue and 1-2 pact.
Unmask is really good.
Nice fuckn job kusumoto. Even though you missed the top8, you might have gotten there with better luck against that UR Delver player. Yeah their countersuite is usually rather light, though they board in Pyrostatic Pillar sometimes (which can suck cause then UR has access to permanent based hate after a well placed, initial counterspell. Also, they do play quite a few basics compared to something like Tempo Thresh or RUG Tempo which basically play all Islands. I'm happy to hear you beat 2 RUG decks. Honestly, they play so many islands that I think we have a favorable post-board matchup against them.
How did the BUG control matchup go? They rarely have permanent based hate post-board unless they play SDT and Counterbalance. I play against the matchup every weekend. If they get Deed you pretty much lose unless you manage to D4 into a full hand to back up your board state (with Land/Chrome Moxen/LEDs/Carpet). EtW isn't that great against them, but a resolved Belcher only loses to a Deed (they play 3 usually) or a Maelstrom Pulse (often a 1'of). So they usually have only 4 outs to a resolved Belcher. I find that the additional land in the post-board helps against Wasteland, as well as providing perpetual IMS for your rituals/Carpets, etc. Also, they usually only maindeck 3 Force; I've found the pre-board to be about 50/50. Post-board, I've varied playtesting from winning like 5-1 post-board games to losing 2-5 post-board games. It honestly mostly rides on whether or not they draw Deed/Pulse and if you draw Carpets/Duress. Even though they play non-basics, I find if you can land an early Carpet, the first business spell causes them to crack fetches, and usually you'll be on 2 mana per turn. Usually, especially with post-board lands, you can get consistently to 3 or 4 perpetual mana per turn, sometimes even without Carpet. Liliana is kind of a bitch but landing perpetual resources kinda negates Liliana until she reaches her ultimate.
I can see why you might like playing Unmask. I guess it has additional application against matchups that can side in hatebears or permanent based hate. Did having to pitch a card to cast it ever come up and prevent you from going off? In other words, would you have played Duress in that slot?
Honestly though, I'd never play less than 4 Carpet. The Culling/Pact/Arbor/Creature package is what allows SI to achieve its unmatched speed in the pre-board. Post-board, against control, Carpet of Flowers is the perpetual resource that no other deck can play as effectively as we can, as we play more business than any other storm combo deck around. Not only does that make it look less threatening, than, say a Duress/Unmask, when it resolves, it ensures that we will have 3-4 opportunities to play business spells for free, and/or play around stuff like Spell Pierce/Daze. Playing less than 4 is subpar. Also, I prefer to board out the rest of the Culling package and board in more lands. More perpetual resources is crucial against control. If you get an early Belcher down, excellent. A misfire isn't really a concern because you play more perpetual resources, and control will not usually find an answer or put on a clock fast enough before you can get another activation out of it. Also, Taiga makes EtW so much easier to cast in the post-board. Sometimes with EtW, I find myself first playing Carpet while my opponent sits on his fetches, until I play a business spell to Force him to crack them. Then I play EtW on the following turn with access to red mana. Taiga allows you to beast it out on turn 1, or turn 2. Also, Taiga doesn't inhibit Belcher activations all that much.
How did you like the 3 Tendrils 1 Belcher, 2 MM configuration? I tend to prefer more copies of Belcher in the maindeck that way I can spend board space on other cards to improve the blue matchup.. but I guess your configuration is likely more consistent for you in the preboard.
I know the matchups you won were mostly blow outs, but would you be willing to do a report for the Delver and BUG matchups?
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
The U/R delver match round 8 was a feature match, so there is likely a video of that somewhere or will be soon. It really should've been a blowout.
Game one I went off and saw a mediocre draw four that only allowed me to tendrils for 16. I had two chrome moxen down though, so I hoped to come back. Unfortunately, I ended up with a culling the weak stuck in my hand with an infernal. I drew the chrome mox to eat that one or two turns too late to get the last tendrils and finish the job.
Game two on my combo turn I just didn't get enough mana. If his mountain had been an island I would have been fine that turn as a I got a second carpet down during the turn, but my last draw four saw belcher, cabal, land grant, land grant and I had bayou already. If not for the mountain I could have done the threshed rit and landed the belcher plus activated iirc.
The draw fours just didn't show me quite what I needed. In retrospect, I could have waited a little longer to go off I think. Oh well.
The BUG loss was just a crap fest.
Game one I mull to 4 I think. A pretty crappy 4 even. Some time later I died to Jace.
Game two I had my only obvious misplay of the day. I was on my combo turn and went for pact. For some reason I had this magical notion that he just HAD to be holding spell pierce so I got an ESG. That put me at 1 storm under lethal with 2 mana available. Obviously I was being an idiot because that wouldn't have mattered. If he had gone pierce and I paid the two I still would have been one short. The correct target was cantor so that I could ESG cast it for my last storm.
That one was the first of the day though, and I got it out of my system there.
No way would I change 3 Tendrils 1 belcher 1 pif 1 muse 2 MM.
I love the setup and it feels so consistent. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than 2 tendrils, but really I think 3 is the best number. One of the biggest strengths of the deck is easily getting natural draws of tendrils from your draw fours. That basically never happens if you play only one and not often with two. I win all the time without ever casting a tutor and it's fantastic.
I agree about 4 carpets. I am planning on cutting my MM in the board for the fourth one.
My main use of unmask is against Mindbreak trap. People running that usually don't counter your first draw four so you can just turn one a draw four and you'll easily have something to pitch and grab that damn trap. Then you can just pass or go for it if you've got it. I've had really good luck with the card, but your mileage may vary. I just hate duress because it's so slow. Running out a duress turn one then staring down thalia is a nightmare I have had and never with to see be a reality.
I'd love to see that feature match actually. I don't think I've ever seen a video of SI actually played. :P
Your D4's might have something to do with configuration of the maindeck/post-board. I noticed you mention that you went for Pact in game 2 against control. How are you boarding? I tend to board out like this with my build:
-4 Summoner's Pact
-4 Culling the Weak
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Tendrils
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Tinderwall
-1 Wild Cantor
-1 Past in Flames/Infernal Tutor/CB/IC
The problem with cards like Pact and Culling in the post-board is that they are a little bit too risky to play with if you board anything out from the Pact-system of supporting Culling. If Arbor, any Pacts, Land Grants, creatures, etc. are missing then you wind up basically drawing dead cards off your D4s. This makes my draw 4's far more productive. Instead of needing the whole Pact system to support Culling, you can use additional post-board lands, and ESGs to support the Carpet-system that replaces the Pact system. Had you played the additional Carpet and perhaps another land to replace the Arbor, the D4's will surely yield better shit that way. Even if you draw all rituals and mana, as long as you don't have conditional rituals like Culling the Weak, every card becomes valuable in some way. In fact, Carpet of Flowers is so good at a well costed G, that I actually like playing a psuedo-5th one via Mirri's Guile, which I've mentioned earlier in the thread. As a perpetual resource, it allows you to manipulate the top of the library to find rituals, Land Grants (fucking amazing when you run more lands and can shuffle the library at will), and it conveniently negates Jace's fateseal which can really fuck you in the ass if you're trying to sculpt another combo turn.
Also, I'm not sure how good EtW will be as a 4'of in the board with limited red sources. -1 Carpet and no Taiga means you need to leave Manamorphose in... which makes D4's that much worse. Also, I tend not to leave Tendrils in the maindeck unless I expect the matchup to have some way of hating it out. Its better to board in additional resources in its place, more often than not. Also, you keep EtW as the alternative wincon if they can answer your Belcher.
EDIT:
I'll playing a board something like this:
SB:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
1 Mirri's Guile
2 Slot
The 2 slots will either include Autumn's Veil, which I've actually tried in those slots and its not bad. Sometimes you bait out 2 counterspells when they go for an early counterspell, like on a ritual, and then they have no idea what you might be holding, so they wind up spending 2 countermagic on a ritual, when you might then be able to drop a Carpet into the clear, etc. I've also liked it as Bayou and Past in Flames. Still haven't decided which direction to go but I'm testing both ideas against BUG control, which is really the only control deck that has tons of maindeck countermagic, and methods to wipe our board with Deed and Pulse.. and they can answer post-board Belcher. This sideboard, independent of those 2 slots, can beat a deck like RUG Tempo, and honestly I haven't had too much trouble with the UR Delver clock/countersuite but the MD/SB really makes a difference there. Granted, I've also asked the dude I test against with BUG control to run maindeck Tops in place of a few cards he doesn't need that way he can play post-board Counterbalance for Storm combo, Burn, Sligh, etc. Its basically a nightmare matchup, even when we can board in 15 cards post-board, but still I'd place the pre-board at about even, and after his addition of Counterbalance... even post-board as well. Without CB, it's say the post-board is favorable.
Finally managed to source the last 2 Summoner's Pacts I need to slam this deck at tournaments :smile:. Only problem is that everyone at my LGS knows I play storm every time and have fun toys like Mindbreak Traps in their boards. Against, for example, Goblins with SB Chalice of the Void and Mindbreak trap, would you SB as against counterspells or stay balls out fast?
If you expect like heavvvy storm hate in your metagame... there are sb options. If you encounter a lot or any Leyline of Sanctity, be sure to keep a 1'of EtW in your board as an out. I've pretty much dedicated a SB spot for that card.
If you encounter Chalice often, find out if they tend to play it at 0 or 1. If you encounter a lot of 0's because they just want to shit hate out of their hand, afraid that you might have a turn 1 kill (something I honestly tend to brag about after their chin hits the table in game 1) then they freak out and do stuff like Chalice at 0 instead of Chalice at 1. Granted, Chalice at 0 is actually better, but Chalice at 1 cuts you out of an answer, Nature's Claim. Last time I encountered Chalice at 1 I played Land Grant ESG Cabal Ritual x2 into D4 into LED LED IT.. so its not like you lose at 0 or 1. You just have to figure out what hands to keep based on the hate you expect.
Against hatebears, Deathmark or Slaughter Pact is your best bet. If you're a confident pilot, I'd play Pacts over Marks.
Against Stax stuff, you have to win before it comes down because its too uphill of a battle to try to play anti-hate. Duress's can help but if they have two choices, which Stax often does post-board, its better to just go for the throat and don't board anything.
Against Mindbreak Traps, be sure to test the waters and play cautiously. If you have the resources to slow play a Belcher, like for instance, turn 1 Land grant, LED, turn 2 Dark Ritual, ESG Belcher, take that route, even if you have to wait for some pieces. Not having to play D4's will give you enough life to play and activate the Belcher.
If you have a lot of players playing storm hate in a metagame, usually that means there is less control, so you'll be able to make room in your board.