[Deck] The Rock

I found two Elspeth to be too many with Bobs and such, so I went down to one, but she's a house.

@Drza

What did you find difficult about GW Tempo?

Also, Karakas ability gets countered on Kira, but does give you the one target to get countered, if that's what you mean.

@ Perish

Perish really does destroy us. I know this seems bad, but I'm just thinking out loud. Dauntless Escort is a 3/3 for Knight's cost but makes your army Perish proof once. Probably not worth it, but just putting it out there.

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I've been testing lately with other people and other Rock players. Apparently, I'm not the only one not in favour of the Moxen, but we'll see. I'm still testing them as flex slots (Mox/Path slots, basically) and I've found them being more useful as Paths thus far.

I'm going to a tournament on Sunday, and I'm pretty sure I'll be playing this. Any matchups that I should watch out for (something I didn't talk about in the primer, or something you've been noticing that maybe I haven't had the chance to play against recently)?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm using Knight with Bog, but it's not like you hit Knight every time, nor can you always get Bog. Running Leyline means I need to run 4, and it's also worse to hardcast if it isn't in my opening hand. It doesn't remove a graveyard that's already there if I have to cast it on turn 3/4, so unless I open with it, it's slightly irrelevant/can be easily dealt with.

I also played a bit more Merfolk, and all I can say is that I hate Kira.

Genesis is used in slower, more controlling Rock builds. It's also the nuts in EDH. 8 isn't a bad price, as far as I know.

-Matt

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karakus smacks kiras face.....lol

whats you alls boarding stratagy for zoo I find I have issues with the path/swords since they pack like 6 atleast.....usually they are the most annoying part of the match.....quasali poses problems for deed and ee alot....I have been thinking of packing like 2 damnation in the sideboard just because it would help against a progenitus and cant be needled and wouldnt be bad against goblins or any other super aggro stratagies.....

Also I saw someone talking about running volraths stronghold and I run it also....I love that card we have so few threats that we need to be able to reuse them at will...

Went 3-2, 9th place using this deck for the first time
Rd 1 vs Goblins 2-0
Rd 2 vs Zoo 1-2 (should have won but 2 bad play mistakes
Rd 3 vs Dreadstill 2-0
Rd 4 vs Merfolk 2-0
Rd 5 vs Lands 1-0-1

Matt, the acceleration slot is unfortunately pretty necessary. I ran it as exploration with a crucible and the flex spot as 3 Armageddons prior to survival's run. I liked it more than the diamond but the same requirements are needed for both cards. I would suggest finding another acceleration card instead of path as I've never been a fan of accelerating their plan more than my own.

Also, even though elspeth is a 4cc its still OK. It's rare that her exact 4 damage will be the reason you lose a game. Reference the Armageddon list and you'll see two 5cc spells as well as three 4cc spells. I think its more remembering and playing accordingly.

Lastly, are people maining their bogs still? I removed mine as there are so few graveyard based strategies right now.

i was thinking of removing it in favor of nantuko monastery, specially because we are thread-light and a 4/4 first striker is not bad at all, plus it does not cipt !!

I'm still running 4 Noble Hierarchs, eschewing the Mox Diamond plan. I lose some explosiveness, but I feel the Exalted and body Hierarch provides is enough to compensate.

As of right now, I'm still running flex-slot Moxen.

For Zoo, I had trouble against their burn, so I ran out Leylines from the board, and it helped. Qasali does such at times, but it just means your Deeds can't sit too long, you have to crack them pretty soon. I'd still say use them, however. Playing 6 Swords main also helps, and early discard to take away Price/Big Beaters definitely helps.

-Matt

Zoo doesn't give me a lot of trouble, but I playtest against it a lot. Mox helps because you can fetch basics easier which let's you avoid Price. I think bringing in Leylines is a bit much. Paths might be nice, I'm not sure Deeds are completely needed here.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

For Zoo, I had trouble against their burn, so I ran out Leylines from the board, and it helped. Qasali does such at times, but it just means your Deeds can't sit too long, you have to crack them pretty soon. I'd still say use them, however. Playing 6 Swords main also helps, and early discard to take away Price/Big Beaters definitely helps.

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SBing Leyline is really bad against Zoo. Burn to the face is the last thing you need to worry about, literally :). They don't start doing that until they've lowered your life points with their creatures. Just focus on killing the creatures to save your face.

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I'm not sure Deeds are completely needed here.

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They're great for me, but I run Moxes so it could be a little harder for him.

But with Thoughtseize, Hymn, 4 Vindicates, 4 Swords, and 2 Paths I don't think Deed will be necessary. Other than library, they have no CA. The trap is not wanting to waste removal on their 1 drop creatures, but every little bit of damage that they can squeeze in puts you closer to burn range.

Unlike ours, Zoo is very much slowed down by having to fetch basics. It's not uncommon to get a hand that just mana screws them either.

Sdematt, I'd be curious how you feel about the BW tempo deck, if you've gotten any testing in.

I hadn't thought of Karakas against Kira. Pretty hot.

I side out Thoughtseize and Vindicate depending on my SB. Deed is better than either of those so should be brought in to replace them. But that's the real problem, we have different MD/SB so we can't tell what's correct specifically.

It has been my experience that your opponent has a plan for you, no matter what they're playing. If you're playing blue control against Tendrils, they bring in Xantid Swarm because they expect you're boarding out useless removal. Playing Rock against R/B Goblins? They're bringing in Perish or Boartusk Liege or both. That's why avoiding their plan is key to winning. You create dead cards. It's a cat and mouse game. Zoo knows you're going to try and take it to the long game. That's what everyone outside of combo does; you don't out-aggro Zoo. So they pack late game CA. Punishing and Grove at least and possibly Elspeth and Ajani. It slows them down but they know you're probably going to take it late anyway, especially post-board. So the solution is to neutralize those long-game threats. I would bring in Extirpate and Loxodn Hierarch or Baloth to give you more threats out of burn range and a way to remove Punishing Fire and PoP.

What is your guys opinion on Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize?

80-90% of the time I take CMC3 or lower anyway and overall I think there are more games you win by not dealing 2-4 damage to yourself every game than you lose by not being able to hit a CMC 4+ card.

The only card it really matters against is Natural Order. The deck has a hard time with Progenitus. You can grab the Show and Tell, and the blue card you don't want them to pitch to force so you get a better 2;1 when you get to dealing with the force. give it a try.

Moat, Elspeth, Jace TMS, Humility, Foce of Will, Natural Order, Armageddon, Smokestack, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and others are all the reasons to run Thoughtseize over Inquisition. Don't get me wrong: running extra copies in addition to TS is fine, or a 3/3 split, but I don't think Inquisition can totally replace the power the Thoughtseize has in the format.

@ BW Tempo

For some reason, I haven't gotten a ton of testing in against more traditional lists. I've gotten some testing in, but it seems like a Zoo-ish type matchup: but instead of burn, they've got more creatures and some removal as well. From the few times I played, Deed was excellent, but I hate Thoughtseize taking my Hymn :P

-Matt

I played about 7/8 games yesterday and I have the following observations:

3 Mox's are required. I hated it on paper but in those games, I only had problems with it once, with a double mox hand (which I kept). I kept that double mox hand because I could do a turn 1 bob + top. I proceeded to win that game. Granted, Mox's are not hot against attrition decks like countertop etc, but they are crucial in speeding up the deck vs aggro decks. You need to get all your discard out against zoo/folk/gobs before they empty their hand. The problem with BOP/Noble is that they don't help much with 2cc cards which this deck is built around. I'd rather have an opener like T1, Hymm, T2 Bob + 1 drop compared to T1 Mana dude, T2 Hymm + 1 drop. Mox is extremely explosive in this deck and I highly recommend it.

Elspeth is beasting. For those who have not tried it, please do so. This deck has a very low threat count (12), Elspeth is the best 13-14th threat. I won races against aggro off the back of elspeth. They leave back a guy to chump KOTR and I fly right over them. Against control, It drives countertop nuts. STP, firepout all delay Elspeth, but does not totally remove her. Elspeth on the board also makes Jace TMS a sad panda. Jace has to keep bouncing or face an angry flying 4/4 which cannot be blocked by wall of Tarmogoyf.

As for Stronghold, I finally cut it. I'd rather have the 4th wasteland. If you are using it, you are most likely already losing, because it is damn slow. Against control, my Knights look for Wastelands, I never ever searched for Stronghold.

Here's my list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 KOTR
2 Elspeth

4 Vindicate
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond

1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant
4 Marsh Flats
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savanna
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Moat, Elspeth, Jace TMS, Humility, Foce of Will, Natural Order, Armageddon, Smokestack, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and others are all the reasons to run Thoughtseize over Inquisition. Don't get me wrong: running extra copies in addition to TS is fine, or a 3/3 split, but I don't think Inquisition can totally replace the power the Thoughtseize has in the format.

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You usually don't want to take FoW anyway. It is fine if they 2 for 1 themselves. What would they force that is so? It is usually their StoP or something that they could play next turn. From the other mentioned cards only Natural Order is both deadly and common. Sure being able to takke cards like Planeswalkers is an upgrade, otherwise we would not have a discussion. But how often do you take that singleton IGG or a Moat?
On the other hand against many decks every point of damage counts. Against Zoo, Merfolk, Affinity and other aggressive decks the cards do exactly the same.

For example in Ivanpei's list you fetch 3 times, reveal for 3 with Confidant and on top of that Thoughtseize twice? That's already half your life gone.I remember enogh games in which I just couldn't TS anymore so I switched (atm 4-2 split). If you play less 1CC Discard then a 2-2 split might be a reasonable call, too.

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Originally Posted by Tao

You usually don't want to take FoW anyway. It is fine if they 2 for 1 themselves. What would they force that is so? It is usually their StoP or something that they could play next turn. From the other mentioned cards only Natural Order is both deadly and common. Sure being able to takke cards like Planeswalkers is an upgrade, otherwise we would not have a discussion. But how often do you take that singleton IGG or a Moat?
On the other hand against many decks every point of damage counts. Against Zoo, Merfolk, Affinity and other aggressive decks the cards do exactly the same.

For example in Ivanpei's list you fetch 3 times, reveal for 3 with Confidant and on top of that Thoughtseize twice? That's already half your life gone.I remember enogh games in which I just couldn't TS anymore so I switched (atm 4-2 split). If you play less 1CC Discard then a 2-2 split might be a reasonable call, too.

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the only reason to not run thoughtseize is if you dont have any....I ran IOK its good I had a couple thoughtseize when I decided to switch to Legacy but traded them off for the components I needed for a couple decks...I have a ton of experience with IOK
and trust me you want thoughtseize... Its takes the power of the deck up tremendously...
Also you want FOW if you want to sneak a peek at theyre hand and stick a KOR under some counter for the win against merefolk.....Natural order is a must get.... against belcher thoughtseize gives you a way better matchup.....Sedmat has alot of valid targets also...Listen IOK is good and the deck is good with it but if you have thoughtseize run it......

If you're playing combo you're the underdog only getting about 20-30% chance at winning that game with or without the Thoughtseize. Even if you do get to make them discard their only combo piece you have to apply lethal before they draw another one. Post board you get a little better by making them jump through hoops but, you still have to win before them. We're a mid-ranged deck without counters and we have to effect them enough to make that matter.

Also, if you're running the popular version of the deck, you have hymn and verdict. Take their accelerate and hymn/verdict them if you can. You may miss them but you'll hit more acceleration spells that way and buy yourself the same amount of time. You also blank extra win-con's they draw that way, granted they have more acceleration than wincon's but, You can at least stall them and you'd know what you're up against.