[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

I don't think cutting Chants would be a good idea right now; as long as the top deck continues to run Stifle and sometimes Spell Snare, Dredge exists, Sensei's Divining Top exists (big one), Brainstorm exists, Diminishing Returns continues to be run as a Wish target, Ill-Gotten Gains continues to be run as a Wish target, Counterbalance decks aren't too heavily played, etc., I don't think it's worth it. It would certainly be correct in certain abstract metagames, and Chants probably aren't at their peak metagame value right now (I'm back to a 4/4 Chant/discard split), but they're still really, really good, and in a lot of scenarios, are the best disruption spell. Also, I'd for certain run Thoughtseize and/or IoK before I'd run Cabal Therapy, though I don't actually have any concrete testing to back that up. But hey, I could be wrong; Therapy has insane potential, and I definitely look forward to any results from testing.

What I do have in terms of concrete testing to back something up is that I am now 100% confident that something should always be in the sideboard to deal with hatebears as opposed to having more of a "sideboard" with the intent of conserving Burning Wish as a strict business spell instead of a dual business spell/answer to storm trumps (i.e., boarding in Grapeshot with the intent of increasing the probability of naturally drawing a bounce/removal spell while ensuring Burning Wishes don't "go to waste"). Going to probably be running Silent Departure again in the board (in tandem with Grapeshot, although one could indeed cut G'Shot for something like Chain of Vapor, or even the super-sweet Slaughter Pact to actually board in; if one is very paranoid about Mother of Runes, board in the Departure and leave in Infest/Virtue's Ruin/Massacre (yes, I know it doesn't work with Teeg out, but one could argue that Infest/Ruin doesn't work with Thalia out) as the Grapeshot slot in the board) for tomorrow's tournament with the intent of leaving it in at all times. I did manage to get off work yesterday and did play the Thoughtseize variant; I really liked it actually, though I only really played in matchups where it was beneficial (Maverick, MUD) and never ran into Canadian Threshold, which is the chief reason one would be dissuaded from running it.

@Bryant- that is actually a really good point about disruption-heavy hands vs. decks like Goblins, but I still don't think it should actually take up the slot of a precious discard spell; I'd much rather cut a Chrome Mox over a Duress/Thoughtseize for a second Probe. Also, while I think you're completely right that a ninth disruption spell over a second Ad Nauseam in a non-Probe list would be too much, what of the first option I listed, a fourteenth land? I can't see that being bad; I can see it being slightly suboptimal, but not bad. But yeah, you've convinced me to not completely dismiss Probe. I won't be running it tomorrow because I don't have enough time to test with it beforehand, but I'll for sure test it after.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

This is what I would be on with nine main deck protection spells. But don't you think that's a lot of protection between the main deck and sideboard? How do you sideboard against decks where protection is bad? You literally cannot sideboard out Silences or Duress. What're you going to bring in? More protection?

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If you don't want to bring in more protection, perhaps Carpet of Flowers. It forces them to get careful with their mana base or else you get to play around Spell Pierce and Daze for free. If they are bad or cocky enough to try to ignore it (ie. not sandbag you on Islands), you can go for protection + double business all in the same turn after having extra mana each turn to sculpt with cantrips, play protection, Burning Wish for business or hate removal, etc. If they are careful with their mana base they can't do as much with their turn, ie. cantrip + have mana for Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. Seems like it could be better than Xantid Swarm in a Merfolk deficient metagame. Also, Delver is heavily played so if they can flip it early, they can block it if they are holding countermagic without a removal spell.

Also, Carpet of Flowers is particularly good when you run into a lot of Wastelands/Stifle and aren't sitting on enough perpetual resources. At the worst, it adds like 0-1 mana per turn if they sit on their fetches or it gets Forced countered because the opponent is holding duals/islands instead of fetchlands. At the best, its still a ritual when you are going off if you pass to second mainphase to add mana to your mana pool and can single handily cast Ad Nauseam along with whatever other perps you are sitting on. Also, control decks can't really sit on their fetchlands against TES like they can vs. PSI because then they can't Brainstorm away what you might make them discard with Iok/Thoughtseize as well as play Ponder and creatures to put a solid clock on you. Also, you can force them to crack fetchlands by playing an early Chant and then use the extra mana each turn to play cantrips and protection each turn that you wouldn't be able to play otherwise. An activate Carpet color fixes for you and allows you to hold on to your Gemstone mines while also being a perpetual mana source thats immune to Wasteland or even a Loam/Crucible Wastelock in mid to late game.


The only disadvantage of adding this to the board besides those mentioned is that its better in the mid to long game against slower control decks rather than Tempo decks which function on fewer land. In that sense, Xantid Swarm might be better but its still a gamble. RUG and UR both play 8+ Burn spells maindeck consistently so it should be expect that it will get killed in the current metagame. I don't think TES has as much trouble with the slower control decks since they have almost no clock so perhaps this isn't the best addition. In general, though, Carpet can draw out countermagic just as easily as a discard spell or chant effect would with the additional application of adding mana as a perpetual resource or a ritual (using it as a ritual by passing to second mainphase also means its not dead once you are going off with Ad Nauseam). Being a 1cc spell that can draw out countermagic with additional applications seems good if you want to board something in that won't overload your hand with protection spells. Then again, Xantid Swarm dodges Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, being a creature.


EDIT:
Xantid Swarm is better against Show and Tell and Reanimator than Carpet since you are hard pressed to go off before they do. Given their DTB presence, Xantid Swarm might be better after all. Then again, do you really want to board in Xantid Swarm against these decks? They play minimal countermagic and you don't really want to dilute TES's speed against such fast combo/control decks.

Gitaxian Probe is insane. I can't belive you guys still aren't running 4 of them. I piloted a list similar to Pelikanudo's to day 2 at Ghent (I was still running Chants, but that was a mistake). A friend of mine used the same list to Top 32 Amsterdam last year.

Also, why are you running a mainboard Tendrils? We've cut that a long time ago for an Emtpy the Warrens, and I can't remember a single game where I needed it. It almost never happens that you can't win on either the mainboard EtW or the sideboard ToA.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Gitaxian Probe is insane. I can't belive you guys still aren't running 4 of them. I piloted a list similar to Pelikanudo's to day 2 at Ghent (I was still running Chants, but that was a mistake). A friend of mine used the same list to Top 32 Amsterdam last year.

Also, why are you running a mainboard Tendrils? We've cut that a long time ago for an Emtpy the Warrens, and I can't remember a single game where I needed it. It almost never happens that you can't win on either the mainboard EtW or the sideboard ToA.

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I ran a list which was almost identical to yours today and it was pretty insane. I only dropped game-1 on the draw against stax with t1 chalice@1, t2 sphere, t3 chalice@2.

@Topo Bahamut.
Hi StormBoarder, long time I don't post there. busy and too much work, I think I made a top 8 with DDFT in a 80 torunament, I got what a wanted and left DDFT, now I'm excited with miracles and so on, althout Bryant TES Design still is my favourite, sometimes you can even guess the cards youre going to draw...
I absolutly agree, Tendrils probably was the card I really want to cut, maybe for the 4th mox or the 13th land.
Anyway, at least in TES I think Tendrils is key as maindeck, it can adds speedy and the Grapeshot - Tendrils play is sometimes key, also in conjuntion with D.Returns , tendrils in M.D gets bigger the possibility of winning , the same is applicable for A.N. ,IGG and PiF engines. I really find much more reasons to play thatn to not to play it, at least in TES design.
Which is your current mana configuration, if you could let me know the differences regarding my list?

@Bryant:
any suggestion related the therapy-4gitaxian - TES version?

@About Xantid:
is key ritgh now, if in your meta there is Reanimator or/and Sneak, 2 as a number at least is a must.

@Emidlin:
Do you have any current TES list with Therapys and 4Gitaxian or like, please if you could share your thinkings.

I'm really interested about the list which won the GP.

That was ANT that won the GP. Apparently the only differences between ANT and TES are Chrome Moxes versus land and three colors versus five colors. Since TES is five colors it might as well play chant effects, right?

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Originally Posted by joemauer

That was ANT that won the GP. Apparently the only differences between ANT and TES are Chrome Moxes versus land and three colors versus five colors. Since TES is five colors it might as well play chant effects, right?

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No, you're not,
Cabal Ritual over Rite of Flame is also a great difference.

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

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WOW! your list seems fantastic,if we call it accurately,maybe it's TNT rather then TES?

You combine the stable mana base of ANT with explosiveness of TES(more tutors,moxen,and the red ramp).

Maybe I am wrong, but if you only rely on Volc Island and Badlands(but no basic lands) to produce red mana, would it be difficult to cast Rite of Flames sometimes when your Red Duals are wastedlanded?(but perhaps mox + petal can help you,I think?)

stable manabase means basics tho. I do like the list

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

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No. 6 gold lands and 4 Lotus Petals have been enough for me, and if you can't cast it, you can sometimes imprint it for Chrome Mox for 1 practically colorless mana. If you feel that's not enough, I recommend 1x Tropical Island as a fetchland target rather than running more CoBs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

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Maybe you could cut 4 fetches to include 4 gemstone mines: 5 fetch, 4 duals, 4 gemstone. What do you think? i don't like a high amount of fechtlands with only 4 lands

You can view my thoughts on Probe Therapy in my GP Ghent article.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

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I have exactly this problem. I tried with 4 City, it's definitly better for Xantid Swarm, however you lose 2 fetches so 2 shuffle effects which is quite bad for Brainstorm/Ponder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

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If I do have trouble digging up a gold land to cast Xantid Swarm, then I usually just cheat it in with Show and Tell.:tongue:

Guy's it's a two-of in the sideboard. You're only adding one card to the deck more than needs a gold land considering you should be siding out a Silence anyway (I do this because if I'm boarding in four protection spells, I don't want protection heavy hands).

Also, no Tendrils main in that list? Seems awful. I can't stress enough how much I dislike the Probe/Therapy package.

EDIT: Twice this weekend, I played a turn one Xantid Swarm to have my opponent have multiple Spell Pierce in hand. It felt damn good being a gangster.

That TNT list looks interesting (might actually be the correct TES derivative against the metagame right now), but could definitely use some improvement I reckon; looks like Chalice absolutely shits on it. I'd initially go -3 Therapy -1 Duress in the maindeck for +4 Thoughtseize (has actually been pretty damn good in my list), fitting in the fourth copy of Duress in the board, and probably fit in a fourth Burning Wish somewhere (possibly just in place of the EtW). Empty the Warrens sounds like it could actually be better than Tendrils maindeck right now, though it also sounds pretty greedy. I'm gonna leave in the four Probe as I test this initially; can always potentially be on the chopping block, though. SB would initially be:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree/Pulverize (Pulverize sounds fucking dope here actually, also gets around Mom+Canonist)
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot/Virtue's Ruin/Infest/(Silent Departure/Deathmark)
1 flex slot (probably Silent Departure initially, though could be anything from Bill Cosby to fourth Swarm to Reverent Silence)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 bounce spell (to reiterate, a subjective decision; I'd be playing a minimum of two Echoing Truth since there've been a few Chalice decks floating around in tha 612 as of late),

with the Trop probably just being in the maindeck in place of the ninth fetchland. Basically, frogboy's list from autumn 2010, swapping the Thoughtseizes and Swarms and making it up-to-date with Past in Flames and possibly cutting four cards for Probes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Guy's it's a two-of in the sideboard. You're only adding one card to the deck more than needs a gold land considering you should be siding out a Silence anyway (I do this because if I'm boarding in four protection spells, I don't want protection heavy hands).

Also, no Tendrils main in that list? Seems awful. I can't stress enough how much I dislike the Probe/Therapy package.

EDIT: Twice this weekend, I played a turn one Xantid Swarm to have my opponent have multiple Spell Pierce in hand. It felt damn good being a gangster.

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Stormgasm!

about that list. i think that the only value on tendrils in sb is improve Ad nauseam, but with etw, it makes no sense. there's a lot of life lost in that list too... even more with thoughtseize

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Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

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This list is definitely a departure from TES but what does it gain besides therapy + probe? Im on probe therapy btw with ANT and I love it (+SCM).
The main problems I see is the manabase is about as stable as Team America's, except without countermagic or stifle for protection and you run 4 total duals to 4 wastelands..
It seems RUG delver is a worse matchup for this list, although EtW main might offset this.
I guess what im asking is, is the slightly faster clock of TES' mox + rituals worth the significant loss of stability from just going with ANTs manabase and ritual suite?

Anyway I like the idea of EtW main except then I would think it gets pretty easy to hate out once the surprise factor wears off. I get the reasoning behind the switch with tendrils (i.e. counting to 10 vs only counting to 5+ with EtW right?) but the full set in your 75 seems excessive.
Not bashing the list because it it obviously has some inherent strengths, just wondering what the reasoning is for some of these changes.