Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

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What tempo decks really want to be casting a Lightning Bolt to the dome on turn 1, though? Seems like the burn in those decks is used primarily as removal early, and to finish off the opponent later.

UR Delver isn't really a tempo deck as much as its a Burn deck. It plays Fireblast... Its really just Burn with countermagic. CounterBurn?

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

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LOL? , seriously as a burn player , i dont mind about the 4/3 body , for me this devil is one-sided flame rift for R, this devil is better than figure at least , he will be replaced inmediately in most burn builds... im just thinking about reckless charge... is that card bad?
By the way i love avacyn restored , only 2 red cards spoiled , and both are just FUCKING AMAZING!!..

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

A Time Walk effect will not cost you either tempo or card advantage (barring a Smokestack on the field or crap like that).

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That.
I'm really impressed that many people couldn't figure that out yet.

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Originally Posted by caiomarcos

That.
I'm really impressed that many people couldn't figure that out yet.

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The personal tutor BS will cost you the card. And having miracle stalled in your hand is why we don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

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I see no reason to play this if not in a deck with a LOT of reach. And a lot of creatures too. So basically Burn! and UR Burn and not anything else. If you're not playing 4 bolt, 4 chain lightning and 4 Fireblast you shouldn't be playing the devil imho.

He's usually a better lava spike that T3 and later can be situationally much worse. I think he will see play in burn just because of the possibility of playing 1 or 2 early on and blowing the opponent out of the game just like that. As i said already, T1 devil, T2 devil + goblin guide is crack.

I think I might per-order these.

This set seems to be full of possible Legacy cards so far. So much so that really good cards that normally would have shaken everyone up are barely being discussed. Sigarda? Angel of Jubilation? All very potentially could see play in Legacy.

When I was saying Devil was sweet I was 100% thinking Standard, I don't know if he has what it takes to see Legacy play (he might though). I'm just glad I won't have to throw out my RDW standard deck since I barely have time to play and I don't feel like starting from scratch every time a new set comes out. Now it looks like RDW will have enough gas to carry me through to Ravnica block at least.

Edit- reading cards is tech.

I can't think of anything that beats this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Goblin Guide
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

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Originally Posted by Basara

LOL? , seriously as a burn player , i dont mind about the 4/3 body , for me this devil is one-sided flame rift for R, this devil is better than figure at least , he will be replaced inmediately in most burn builds... im just thinking about reckless charge... is that card bad?
By the way i love avacyn restored , only 2 red cards spoiled , and both are just FUCKING AMAZING!!..

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Yes it is when they 2 for 1 your Devil in response to the pump spell. Its obviously a good card in burn, but I'm guessing its going to be more effective in Burn decks that choose to splash like WUR Quickdraw and UR Delver. There they won't get hated out by all the anti-burn cards people are sure to be packing in their sideboard in the days to come. Having access to countermagic makes this card deadly. In burn, its just a better burn spell.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

The Devil is good imo. They're usually just gonna take 4, which is fine, and a 4/3 for 1 is amazing!


Man... a 4/3 creature for R? Don't we kinda HAVE to play that guy? maybe only 3? I'm kinda shocked...

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This is exactly what I was thinking. I mean all green decks play 'goyf with the reasoning of him being a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2. I can't think of a reason why burn wouldn't want 4 of these suckers main deck. I would also be very interested to this guy in conjunction with U/R delver. Seems good.

Not necessarily. Sometimes dropping a creature won't be nearly as good as direct damage. The fact that the opponent gets to choose means.. if you have spot removal, let them have the creature. If you can take the damage without putting yourself within reach range, take the damage. That means countermagic becomes so fucking important because you can then protect your dude from removal when they let you drop it thinking they have an answer.

Thats what I mean about its application to UR Delver vs. Burn. Its fucking great in Burn don't get me wrong. I think its going to be even better in UR builds. I mean they already have Goblin Guide and Delver.

Vexing Devil is super sweet against planeswalkers :D

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Vexing Devil is super sweet against planeswalkers :D

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Erm.. how? (Jace -bounce, Elspeth - token chump, Liliana - sac, etc)

Time to sleeve up Counterbalance again. It may be a good chance for it to shine, after all this time having been mediocre and unplayable because of Maverick (which is likely to be pretty set down or even pushed apart if UR.crazyness becomes popular).

I think it's more time to sleeve up Chalice of the Void. I think people forgot what that card did anymore.

I'm impressed by Vexing Devil. Very impressed.

I like Vexing Devil. It has an upside to the generic 3 to the head spell (being 4 to the head) and a downside (bad topdeck from some point on). It seems like an extremely fair card that will make games against Burn more interesting if iBurn decks end up playing it.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Not necessarily. Sometimes dropping a creature won't be nearly as good as direct damage. The fact that the opponent gets to choose means.. if you have spot removal, let them have the creature. If you can take the damage without putting yourself within reach range, take the damage. That means countermagic becomes so fucking important because you can then protect your dude from removal when they let you drop it thinking they have an answer.

Thats what I mean about its application to UR Delver vs. Burn. Its fucking great in Burn don't get me wrong. I think its going to be even better in UR builds. I mean they already have Goblin Guide and Delver.

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This line of argument isn't valid. You're comparing two scenarios that won't occur given all things being equal.

The idea that dropping a creature vs burn makes the implication that you're playing a creature over playing a burn, this isn't happening.

You're replacing a creature with a creature. So arguments need to strictly be a creature to creature comparison. The idea of "Well you'd rather have the burn damage" makes the implication that top decking him instead of lava spike might not be as good--but how can that possibly happen when he's not replacing lava spike? They're being run concurrently.

That's no different from saying, "Well if you replace Tarmogoyf with Vexing Demon, then when you top deck him instead of a Force it's clearly not as good." The demon wouldn't be taking the spot of a counterspell, just like it's not taking the spot of a burn, so being concerned that drawing it over something it's not replacing isn't logical. When you replace one land for another land, and you top deck that land, obviously you'd rather it be a lightning bolt, but the land didn't replace a lightning bolt, so there's no comparison to be drawn.

So the real question is, when you top deck a creature--would you rather have Keldon Marauder or Hellspark Elemental... or would you rather have Vexing Devil, who quite frankly shits on both of those cards.

If you top deck him looking for a burn, you would have top decked one of those two creatures in burn, and you wouldn't have that burn anyways...

Vexing Devil might turn out to be decent in sligh/RDW, but it's hardly broken. It succumbs to the Browbeat problem (i.e. giving your opponent choices). In practice, Vexing Devil will deal 4 damage and die 50% of the time (usually in the first few turns). The other 50% of the time, your opponent will have lethal the next turn and it will be irrelevant, or your opponent will have a blocker such as 4/5 Goyf or 5/5 Knight, or your opponent will just bolt/StP it. Rarely will your opponent be in a position where both options aren't manageable.