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I've been goldfishing this deck and noticed that binning Griselbrand could become a problem area. This week I got paired against a TinFins player so upon countering his Entomb I went Cunning Wish into Surgical to extract his Entombs. It was a fairly easy game after that.
@ Koby
I don’t think that in the Match Ups where I want Bitterblossom the Tendrils plan is the best way to win the match. Or how do you want to generate enough Mana to build up a high enough storm count if a Chalice on one counters your Dark Rituals or a Counterbalance counters all your Rituals? Actually I am happier to board out Tendrils when I bring in Bitterblossom. The Graveyard kill is easier to set up than the Storm kill with this deck. Try to land a Turn 1 Bitterblossom as you mentioned if you didn’t have a Turn 1 Griselbrand to give them something to worry about. If you just digging for your combo whether it is the Graveyard or the storm combo they will have a greater chance to dig for their answers, in the long run Sensei’s Diving Top or Jace the Mind Sculptor will trump cantrips. That’s why I did only promote making up a few slots for Bitterblossom instead going for a full transitional sideboard. If they have to fight the steady stream of attackers Bitterblossom provides and the possible Graveyard counter they have to divide their resources against different ways of attack. That provides them from overcommitting cards against one strategy and increases the danger for them that they run out of answers. Obviously this will only work if you can get your oops I win card down before they can shut it down with Counterbalance or Chalice, and it is difficult for them to remove it. I considered Phyrexian Crusader as alternative to Geist because his protection blanks Miracles Removal and Infect will prevent Lifegain from being useful. He also can be cast of a turn 1 Dark Ritual. But then I realised that Jace can bounce him into oblivion which means he is much more unlikely to get there then the alternatives which was the reason I discarded that idea.
@ catmint
With a transformational sideboard there is the question if you have enough slots to take in everything you need, don’t leave to many dead cards in and still don’t die to the same things as before. With hate hate you still have the change after you resolved it to still proceed as regulary. The challenge is only to find the real answers. And after you count counter as hate you should also count discard and Silence as hate hate and then the numbers are not as bad as you suggest.
Regarding devote sideboard slot to specific cards, obviously this should not be a general sideboard strategy but help you win the matchups you would not otherwise. I would not recommend boarding in Bitterblossom against Jund because as you said it will be trumped, against Burn it is really suicidal to bring Bitterblossom in. But against Jund and Burn I am not concerned that they protect their hate with counter which is the real problem we are discussing here. But if Miracles start to trump your Bitterblossom with creatures than something is wrong and Terminus and Supreme Verdict will only delay Bitterblossom not kill it. And if they then still have to find the answer to it and additional answers to you combo they are also running into the danger to find the wrong solutions to the answer which treats them the most at that point of time. The only challenge is to find the right hate and the right way to find it which leads me to the next topic.
@ Kryptor
Sometimes, yes. Intuition and Burried Alive was tested and slowed the Deck down too much.
@ all
I am currently pondering a list with Cunning Wish. The goal is to find the right answers to hate at the right time. It still needs to be tested but after most from you are already ahead in testing with this deck I thought it could be a good idea to share the idea for some brainstorming.
Some might ask why when it is running Cunning Wish doesn’t move an Entomb / Shallow Grave / Goryo’s Vengeance to Tutor it with Cunning Wish? Well after Intuition was to slow to set up the kill Cunning Wish for the Win Condition will be equally slow if not slower. But it will give you a toolbox to find the answer for the situation you are in. Situations that will slow you down no matter what but in this case you will find an answer.
Question to consider are, is a second green Mana producing Land needed to reliable have green Mana against Wasteland Decks for the sideboard cards? Two Cunning Wish was selected to avoid getting Wish flooded when you don’t need them, but are they enough when you need them or did this list need three?
For the sideboard, cards with more than one copy are considered to be boarded in, not necessary in the full number if you want to leave a Wish target in the board. One offs are for Wish Situations. If the numbers and cards are correct is part of the testing. The Krosan Grip was included for Leyline with Counter back up related situations. In addition it can permanently deal with a Sensei’s Diving Top because Split Second stop them from drawing a card in response.
Maindeck
1* Bayou
4* Marsh Flats
4* Polluted Delta
1* Scrubland
1* Swamp
1* Tundra
2* Underground Sea
1* Children of Korlis
1* Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2* Griselbrand
4* Brainstorm
4* Cabal Therapy
2* Chrome Mox
2* Cunning Wish
4* Dark Ritual
4* Entomb
4* Gitaxian Probe
3* Goryo’s Vengeance
4* Lotus Petal
4* Ponder
4* Shallow Grave
1* Tendrils of Agony
2* Thoughtseize
Sideboard
3* Abrupt Decay
4* Bitterblossom
1* Hurkyl’s Recall
1* Krosan Grip
1* Pull from Eternity
2* Silence
2* Surgical Extraction
1* Tempest of Light
Yeah I've had that problem since the very beginning, which is why I'm still hesitant to play less than 4 Grizzlebees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryptor
@Falconer:
Keep us updated on C. Wish testing. It's something we briefly discussed before, but it was on the way to the airport to get out of Atlanta and I don't think it really went anywhere after that. My instinct is to say it's too slow/mana intensive for this kind of deck, but if it's providing the kind of silver-bullet answers we need, then maybe it's worth it.
Also just to update everyone, I did a little testing with Teferi's Realm and so far it's actually been pretty promising. To be fair though I haven't really run into any god hands from Countertop with it yet though.
Queue flying monkey theme from Wizard of Oz~
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10309
That Top8 is insane. Anything running silence seems like it would have killed!
Also interested to see how Cunning Wish tests out. I never tried it as I felt Intuition at 3 mana was already prohibitive when it was acting like the combo piece I usually wanted (Entomb) and I didn't have much success with Burning Wish in the past as it made anything I tried to do way too expensive.
Hey folks, I'm new to the Tin Fins band wagon (saw the initial primer awhile ago but just recently decided to give it another go) and I've been loving this deck.
Just to throw out an idea however, I myself am torn between the anti-hate sideboard and the transformative sideboard. I've been toying with the idea of a charbelcher sideboard. Since most of the lists are running in the 12-14 lands range, our sideboard strategy could simply be to sideboard out all the lands, and throw a charbelcher package in. Rendering all GY hate moot.
No list yet as I'm also still debating the core list (mostly what/how many cantrips/discard to MD). If I come up with something good I'll be sure post it up.
I feel like this shouldn't be a "New or Developmental" deck anymore.
Charbelcher is all mana. Including a lot of free mana. Seems like too many cards to transform this deck into anything non-terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Top8 is insane because out of 30 players almost everyone was playing combo, which was unexpected since in the past 6-7 events just a couple of people played combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
Everything that I know and hold dear about deck construction was thrown out the window in that top8. Two copies of not-TinFins that seem like a slower, less compact version and 3 copies of ANT with this crazy split of 2 Ad Nauseam, 1 or 2 Burning Wish. Congrats to the pilots, but color me confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Looking at those Oozing decks does make me want to go back and look at Intuition again. It was always pretty sweet.
Oozing is discussed in another "new and developemental" Topic, ans it's indeed slower,but clearly strong though, with a fun board plan : 4-5 black 4-drops (Obliterator, desecration demon, even phyrexian vatmother).
Yea, that tournament is not relevant at all, without any offense to the Oozing topic. Wait for GP Strasbourg for maybe more TinFins!
I could see going back to Intuition. I've had too many games recently where I'm just topdecking looking for an Entomb. I've been trying @Koby's list from Vegas and I really like Gitaxian Probe, Silence, and not having to run Gemstone mine but I miss having more Griselbrands to discard. Intuition in place of the maindeck Silence might work just as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Played online some yesterday and G1 against Esper Stoneblade he countered an Entomb. I was digging for another when he played Jace and started fatesealing me. I Thoughtseized him, took Snapcaster, then Reanimated Snapcaster to flashback the Entomb, Dark Ritual, Shallow Grave, game. Fun times.
I've been pretty happy with Koby's list, but I'm running -2 Probe, +2 Grizzle. I haven't felt like probe made a huge difference other than occasionally making Therapy better, but not really anything in terms of speed or consistency. It could reasonably be Careful Study for the extra dig, but I also haven't felt like that was very necessary with 4 Griz + 7 discard.
So a rather basic and silly question, but how do I sideboard with this deck? As in given that I recognize a common threat (counterspells, probably gy hate etc.), what do I take out for what?
Soooooooo... established atleast?
I watched the SCG Indy coverage yesterday and Tin Fins was mentioned often but not highlighted as present in the tournament...do you guys know if anybody was playing it? If there were Tin Fins there, can we get some form of report?
I played Fins in Indy. Went 5-4 on the day Wins: Sneak & Show x3, Elves, Merfolk. Lost to Sneak & Show, Maverick (It still hurts), Walking Dead, and RUG Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystar
Got back to Madison WI at like 3 in the AM and am currently sending this out (on the downlow) from the office. Will post my list and some highlight from the event later today.
Overall theme from SCG Indy Legacy "Wow! Look at all the Combo."
-Finn
http://i.imgur.com/l0iaSfQ.jpg
Death Wish could be an alternative to the main deck against hate??? could help in the search for an answer in sideboarding, the children quickly pick up or yet another way to win the game by making a empty the warrens ...
Versatile tutors are sweet, but at 3 mana and half your life, the costs are too steep. I would consider this at 2 mana.
playing with dark rituals, chrome mox, lotus petal ... etc. .. you still find difficult to fit this tutor.That deck is fast, no doubt about that, but as his performance grows, the hate for this deck also increases and that tutor can be a good outlet for other ways to win the game or get an answer to win. Anyway just testing it to see the potential of this cardQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby