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I brought up the Past in Flames kill over half a year ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by MST negates
Also, I agree with FinalFortune that Rite of Flame is a pretty mediocre source of mana due to the color fixing requirement. If you want a more stable mana base, you can try messing with Summoner's Pact->Elvish Aberration. This allows you to play Land Grant.
You quoted my question about ToA but never answered it... I will look into Elvish Aberration, but as stated I take no issues with my deck - FF does. Also, I do not run Past in Flames, I run Rite of flame...I really do wish people would READ MY POSTS BEFORE REPLYING. Since the users at this site seem completely and utterly unable to do something as simple as this, I will no longer be assisting any decks on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
Yes, I consider every tourney ever held to be anecdotal and irrelevant to the game as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
P.S. - Goodbye MTGtheSource, it was nice while it lasted. Hopefully in the future your users will READ.
I did answer your question. There is discussion about Tendrils of Agony because it can used be in the Past in Flames version of this deck (Noxious Revival and Burning Wish->ToA are options as well). This should be obvious for anyone who's remotely followed the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MST negates
No one cares. Goodbye.Quote:
Originally Posted by MST negates
This version just finished top8 at SCG Portland
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69452
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Liked pacts in side disliked just 2 therapies
Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk
I've only started thinking about this deck a week ago, and don't have much experience with Legacy, but I've read through the thread and spent some time on the deck, so I'll share a few of my observations and impressions, in case they're useful and to get feedback about where I should potentially go in a different direction.
- Cycling is out of place in this deck. This isn't a deck that's digging for one particular card. Rather, it wants to draw some combination of cards, and being able to make good mulligans is crucial. Further, at least in the deck linked above, cyclers come at the cost of tutors and LED, substantially reducing access to a win condition in the opener.
- A three-card win condition is unnecessary. Compare any of the Maniac kills with Sutured Ghoul. The additional vulnerabilities of Ghoul are primarily StP/PtE, Abrupt Decay (target Dragon Breath) and Maze of Ith. All but Maze can be cleared out with Therapy, and Maze isn't common.
- Dropping the win condition to two cards saves more than one card slot. Because you're less likely to draw two combo pieces, you need fewer copies of Therapy and you need fewer Bridges to support Therapy.
- My impression after a few goldfish games with the Past in Flames kill was that it could not consistently win as quickly as Sutured Ghoul, and I did not spend much time testing it, so I don't really have any opinions about that build.
I've goldfished a couple hundred preboard hands of the decklist below. I have additional comments below the list.
// Creatures
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragon Breath
1 Dread Return
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Living Wish
4 Lotus Petal
4 Narcomoeba
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Undercity Informer
1 Wild Cantor
// Sideboard
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Bridge from Below
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Forest
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Pact of Negation
1 Peat Bog
1 Swamp
3 Wild Cantor
Based on my goldfishing, the deck won pre-board games turn one 60% on the play and 80% on the draw. I didn't consider turn two wins, though in practice a lot more hands should be kept to win on turn two (as opposed to mulliganing aggressively for a turn one).
- 4 Narcomoeba, 0 Bridge from Below, 1 Cabal Therapy. As discussed above, with a compact win condition, you don't need a lot of redundancy. Unless you draw LED, you can't win if you draw both Dragon Breath and Sutured Ghoul or either and Therapy (unless you have spare black mana), or some number of Narcomoeba (more or less depending on whether you need to cast Therapy and whether you're using Spy or Informer). The vast majority of these hands would not be able to win even if the deck did have additional copies of Therapy and Bridge, due to the number of dead cards in hand, so I prefer to minimize the number of dead draws as much as possible.
- The fourth Infernal Tutor would increase turn one wins more than the singleton Deathrite Shaman. I'm currently undecided which is better maindeck, as Deathrite Shaman is probably better in the FoW matchups, where LED comes out (search with Pact to imprint on Mox or case off of Mox/Chancellor for additional turn two mana).
- Sideboarding:
vs. FoW: -4 LED, -3 Infernal Tutor, +4 Pact of Negation, +3 Wild Cantor
vs. significant removal: -2 Infernal Tutor, +1 Therapy, +1 Bridge
vs. mirror: -4 Narcomoeba, -1 Dragon Breath, -1 Sutured Ghoul, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Forest, +1 Swamp, +3 Wild Cantor (probably doesn't come up much, but I wanted to point out that it might be valid to try to win by milling them instead)
- As the deck is designed to win by being very fast, the sideboard should impact on speed as little as possible. Basically, I expect to win more games by being fast than by having answers in the sideboard that typically also require using up a mana source. LED's obviously don't synergize with Pact of Negation, so they come out, and Infernal Tutor comes out by extension. Additional Cantors are the best way to ensure black mana, and are playable off of Chancellor and Mox to increase the number of turn two wins.
- The second Therapy is to be able to target yourself and a removal spell, and the Bridge is to support the additional sacrifices.
- The rest of the sideboard is Wish targets and has been covered earlier in this thread.
I am planning on building this deck so i can play combo from time to time with a reasonable budget, thus i am asking for comments on my list below :
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy
(the 15 cards above swap for the belcher package when needed)
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Pact of Negation
2 Summoner's Pact
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 4 Goblin Charbelcher
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 3 Spoils of the Vault
When i want 4 Chancellor of the Annex as additional protection post-board, i usually side out -2 Summoner's Pact (really not comfortable with this card), -2 Street Wraith (Need at least 1 for the kill, so i keep 2 in case i pitch one to imprint on chrome mox).
Any advice ?
B4l4,
I like the list, I'm running something similar. Honestly, I find you don't need that many can trips for consistency. My list runs similar but...
- 1 Narcomoeba
-4 gitaxian probe
+ 2 summoner's pact
+1 cabal therapy
+2 bridge from below
This bridges allow you to combo when you have been dealt an unplayable narcomoeba hand and they imprint nicely on chrome moxs.
The extra cabal therapy us usually used on a chrome mox or fired off before you combo naming force.
The summoner's pact are there for obvious reasons and I feel are too good to cut.
Sideboarding is the same plan but I keep Cerberus in and take the bridge package out.
Just my thoughts/list use it if you want.
The cycling version is the more successful version. Whether that means it's a better build is debatable. Mulligans are definitely more difficult, and there's a greater element of chance introduced, but results are hard to argue with. I encourage anyone who believes the cyclers are inferior to run a build without them and report back.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.B. Flemm
The advantage of the three-card win condition is that it can win in difficult situations. This deck occasionally -- perhaps even frequently -- mulligans down to four or five cards, looking for that magic combination. In the instances where you don't hit, you have to wait around for some number of turns while your opponent is killing you, or throwing discard at you, or playing lock pieces, or amassing countermagic. Just as an example, I lost a crucial game to this deck at a Star City Open about a year ago. I was playing Enchantress and I had set up a Solitary Confinement lock. I rapidly moved to my end game, and the turn before I was able to kill him, he drew the Dark Ritual he needed to combo off, and I lost to Lab Maniac. Granted, Solitary Confinement is not a commonly played Legacy card, but a whole class of cards, ranging from Maze of Ith to Ensnaring Bridge to Moat, are common enough not to write off. They aren't problems when everything goes according to plan and you combo off Turn 1 on the play, but they become problems when you mulligan a couple times and have to rely on drawing into what you need to go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.B. Flemm
Goldfishing means basically nothing. I don't know why people cite it as though it indicates real testing. Take the deck to a tournament, then report on which matches you won or lost and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.B. Flemm
Bridge From Below and Cabal Therapy are, crucially, black cards. This means they imprint on Chrome Mox to enable Dark Ritual, which is the easiest way to ramp into a Rogue. Having more black cards is desirable, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.B. Flemm
In my experience, Pact of Negation is the biggest reason to play this deck. If you go the LED route, you can't play Pact of Negation. Legacy is a Force of Will format, so you should either be running Pact of Negation maindeck or you shouldn't be playing this deck at all because the environment is too hostile. I can't understand Pacts in the sideboard. If you are playing in an area where there are very few Force of Will decks, then enjoy slaughtering the room, at least Game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.B. Flemm
I would never ever board out Street Wraith. I feel you have to have him because many times your combo depends on having an extra black card to imprint on chrome mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by B4L4
A problem I found with the "new" Underworld Cerberus kill is that you are dead to Chalice at 1. It stops you from casting Wild Cantor to play Laboratory Maniac. The solution to these matchups seems to be to run 1 of Ancient Grudge in the sideboard to kill the chalice after saccing the Cerberus.
I am a huge fan of running 4 Pact of Negation main.
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
3 Manamorphose
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Bridge from Below
3 Narcomoeba
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Dread Return
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
This is my 60.
My sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Manamorphose
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Seething Song
Previously all 15 cards in the sideboard came in to transform into 4 Belcher, 4 Lions, 4 SSong, 1 MM, 1 SPact, 1 Empty. With the Ancient Grudge now for Chalice it's potentially 1 dead card sometimes that has to come in anyway.
2 Bridge from Below would also be desirable especially since that is another black card to imprint. A third Cabal Therapy would also be desirable since it can get problematic when you draw 1 naturally. Sometimes you just need 2 to cast against Force of Will and maybe even Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce if its beyond turn 1 or to discard your drawn Cerberus after stripping Force. For me personally 2 are fine since I run 4 Pact of Negation main anyway as additional FoW protection.
Minor thing I dislike that for matchups where I know that there is no interaction from my opponent I don't want to sideboard into Belcher and I don't want to keep Pact of Negation main so I have to board in SPact and MM which is fine but 2 more and Seething Song or Lion's Eye Diamond are just not that good.
It would be better to have sideboard cards that are good for Belcher and are better than Seething Song or LED for Oops. Maybe 2 Spoils of the Vault would be fine since they are at least black cards to imprint on Chrome Mox and also very helpful in Belcher setup.
A redundant Bridge from Below, Dread Return, Underworld Cerberus, Wild Cantor and Laboratory Maniac would be nice against DRS. But that is too many cards to commit to that issue, I just tend to sideboard into Belcher when I am not on the play and up against DRS. If you are not using a Belcher sideboard however I would reccommend putting these redundant pieces in the sideboard against DRS when you are not on the play so you have a chance to go off through DRS.
PS: I will never consider Chancellor of the Tangle. It's just a dead card that can make you lose if you draw it. Chancellor of the Anex is better but still the same issue. Pact of Negation is just a better protection card and if I was to run additional I might consider Force of Will before.
I just 3-1 the Daily
Round 1: Matchup against Elves
Game 1 : Won dice roll and won on turn 1
Game 2 : Did not sideboard into Belcher, had a turn 1 hand but he had turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Thorn Amethyst and Turn 3 Null Rod
Game 3 : Won on turn 1
Round 2: Matchup against TES Storm
Game 1 : Won on turn 1
Game 2 : Won on turn 1
Round 3: Matchup against PJund with Veteran Explorer
Game 1 : Won on turn 1
Game 2 : did not sideboard, mulligan to 6, he missed with Cabal Therapy, I missed 1 mana to win turn 1, turn 2 he Veteran Explorer to stip Informer, followed by 2 Thoughtseize and Slaughter Games on Underworld Cerberus
Game 3 : First hand drew Dread Return, Cerberus, Bridge , Second hand drew Dread Return, Bridge and Narcomoeba, Third hand was average but Cerberus again in hand - game lasted a lot of turns he made me discard the win next turn twice, I was impatient and ran a Chrome Mox into Abrupt Decay instead of discarding something, then I went for the win and he found mindbreak trap on top of his library with Sensei's Divining Top to counter the Balustrade Spy which was spell #3 exactly
I think I would have won game 3 if I avoided the Abrupt Decay and played around Mindbreak Trap instead of going for the win although I dont blame myself for that decision.
He brough in 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction plus running 1 DRS, 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Cabal Therapy and drew into all his hatecards in both games he won. If I could have found 1 decent hand in 3 mulligans of game 3 I win in turn 1 but that is Oops..
Round 4: Matchup again RWU Delver
Game 1: He won the the dice roll, I keep a hand with 2 Pact of Negation, Mana but no Spy
He opens with Probe and Delver, and turn 2 SFM and flipped Delver.
On my turn 2 I draw Informer and combo off through Force of Will.
Game 2: I sideboarded Belcher and my opnening hand was Chrome, Petal, Petal, Manamorphose, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual. I risk the keep.
He plays fetch and nothing on turn 1.
I draw Belcher on turn 1. Play Chrome Mox, he spell pierces. I play both Petals, all rituals and then Manamophose. He lets everything resolve I have 5B1G1R in Pool and Manamorphose draws into Pact of Negation. I play Belcher with 3 mana floating, he forces and I pact and that is GG.
Got lucky in the last game drawing into Pact of Negation exactly.
In round 3 I should have taken 2 different lines of play and I could have won that game and played for 4-0 against Miracles. I also should have boarded in Belcher in Game 2.
My list was:
Maindeck configuration was the Underworld Cerberus version key choices were
3 Summoner's Pact
2 Manamorphose
4 Pact of Negation
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Bridge from Below
3 Narcomoeba
1 Wild Cantor
Sideboard was : 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Seething Song, 2 Empty the Warrens, 1 Summoners Pact, 2 Manamorphose, 4 Belcher, 4 LED
I am contemplating if I should make room for 1 Maniac, 1 Cerberus, 1 Dread Return and another Wild Cantor in the sideboard so that 1 DRS cant stop the combo. -2 MM, -1 Seething Song, - 1 Grudge
On the other hand I dropped out at 0-2 on thursday
Round 1 : Fish
Game 1 : I win though maindeck Chalice of the Void at 0 and Force of Will.
Game 2 : He opens with Chalice at 0, Turn 2 Chalice at 1, Turn 3 Thorn Amethyst
Game 3 : same stories with the chalices
Round 2: Elves
Game 1 : He wins the dice roll, I kept a starting hand that was turn 1 if I could draw just 1 more mana to sac my Informer. He opens with Forest and Deathrite Shaman.
I can't draw the mana source so I had only the choice of deploying Informer and waiting to untap to sac him with Chrome Mox and hope my opponent is stupid and taps DRS for mana on his turn. Either way I had to hope my opponent did not know my deck and would tap his DRS.
Game 2 : I am on the play, did not sideboard Belcher and removed Pact. I mulligan to 5 before I find an acceptable hand but still cant win on turn 1. He found DRS again, and on my turn I draw but am again 1 mana short, He follows up with 2 more DRS.
Maybe should have went Belcher but usually when on the play against Elves I think going full combo is best when they don't have Mindbreak Trap in the sb.
Currently 3-0 in the next Daily and since I have 40 minutes off time during each round I might as well give a report
Round 1: Miracles
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, I combo him on turn 1 with Pact of Negation, he concedes before I can see what I am playing against.
Game 2: I sideboard, he opens with an Island that he does not tap. I kept a hand full of mana and cyclers. I draw into Empty the Warrens and make 14 Tokens. He play Top next turn but can't find Terminus before I kill him with 14 Goblins.
Round 2: Esper Deathblade
Game 1: He opens with an island, I mulligan to 6 combo him on turn 1 with Pact of Negation.
Game 2 :I sideboard and lead with Chrome Mox and Underworld Cerberus, cast Cabal Therapy for FoW -> reveal FoW and Counterspell. Turn 2 I cast another Cabal Therapy to get Counterspell. On his turn 3 he Detention Spheres the Chrome Mox.
In my turn 3 I have 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, 1 Simian Spirit Guide, 1 Seething Song, 1 Manamorphose and 1 Charbelcher. I exile 2 Elvish Guides into Manamorphose for double black and draw Dark Ritual. Cast Ritual, Exile Simiian, Cast Seething Song -> 7 Mana -> cast Belcher and activate
Roud 3: Battle of Wits brew
Game 1: I win on turn 1.
Game 2: Didn't know what was in his deck but I assumed 250 card means it's unlikely he draws hate but he opened with Relic of Progenitus and I missed 1 mana and drew Narcomoeba.
Game 3: I had a turn 1 hand without protection, mulliganed into Pact of Negation. 2x Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy taking out Counterbalance I topdecked Undercity Informer on turn 4 to win with Pact through Force of Will.
Round 4: Bug Delver
Game 1 : I combo through force of will and daze.
Game 2 : I sideboard Belcher, I try to go off with 2 Manamorphose needing to hit 1 more mana but I draw Chrome Mox and Belcher and my hand then is Belcher, Belcher, Belcher, Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox. I manage to resolve Belcher but I miss 1 mana to activate it and die.
Game 3 : I try to combo off knowing he has daze and fow but I could generate 5 mana and had Pact but he topdecked Ancient Grudge and responded to Chrome Mox before I could tap it so I went all in and Pacted this hoping that he would let me resolve Dark Ritual to cast Cabal Therapy for the Force but he sequenced right, Dazed the Pact and Forced the Dark Ritual. That was stupid by me I could probably have waited 2 more turns to find a new mana source to go off instead of fighting the Ancient Grudge.
Well 3-1.
Nice job! One question : how do you decide to side into belcher or not? Which is your logic?
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When I am not on the play and when they run a lot of graveyard hate. Or when they run Leyline of the Void.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Sometimes when they run a lot of counterspell since Empty the Warrens is often good against Counterspells.
This is my current decklist:
//Artifact (8)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
//Creature (26)
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Narcomoeba
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Undercity Informer
1 Wild Cantor
//Enchantment (3)
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dragon Breath
//Instant (15)
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
3 Summoner's Pact
//Sorcery (8)
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
SB:
1 Atog
1 Atogatog
1 Auratog
1 Chronatog
1 Foratog
1 Lithatog
1 Megatog
1 Necratog
1 Phantatog
1 Psychatog
1 Sarcatog
1 Thaumatog
1 Storm Crow
1 Charging Badger
1 Chimney Imp
Unfortunately, I'd like to fit in some Pact of Negations in, but I have no idea what to cut/shave. Any help?
If you want to fit PoN in the MD, I suggest you change your kill to the Underworld Cerberos kill. - Ghoul, - Dragon Breath, -1 Narco, + Cerberos +LabManiac +PoN. The kill does no longer rely on attacking and is thus a little less vulnerable. If you want to fit more PoN in, then you can always experiment with 3 Manamorphose & 3 Probes.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
I built this for a friend who wants to learn to play Magic.
I told him one of the fundamentals of MtG is having an amazing manabase; except this one doesn't use lands.
We'll see what he thinks. Its all in good fun.
Altho there are no recent posts in here i would appreciate a moderator or phazonmutant to either quote the primer that came up during the discussion in the opening post or add link with big red letters to it, so anybody looking at the thread will find it.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post773070
The opening post is valuable and all but finding the primer reqires luck and patience now.
----------------------
Anyway, how does this deck compare to goblin charbelcher decks?
They pretty much try to achive the same. Wich is more consistent.
For what I see Hermit has better chances by running Pact of Negation/ Cabal Therapy while Belcher is not vulnerable to gravehate (the fast one)
Both are glass canons, but since Belcher is a bit less vulnerable (due to Xantid swarms & empty the warrens) after board, I find it more consistent then Hermit. But that is my personal opinion. When you're only looking at Fun factor, then it is the Hermit that gets my favourite vote!