[Deck] Grixis Tempo

First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

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Originally Posted by WashableWater1

Against Aluren, I like +1 ancient grudge, +2 REB and +X extra removal. I like taking out -2 angler, -X gitaxian probe. -2 therapy.

They're able to clog up the ground between Shardless agent and Recruiter, and the air with Baleful Strixes. This makes Angler quite a bad threat, and going wide with Pyromancer a little tougher. Therapy isn't amazing because the whole deck is made of value, so grabbing individual cards doesn't make a huge splash.

As for the combo side, REB/Pyroblast are the only way to break up the combo with one card once they land an Aluren. Aluren costs 4 mana, daze is very good against that. The game plan is to wasteland/daze them off of Aluren. Its not really worth bringing in Surgical, it doesn't win you the game and only does something if you're already ahead.

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Cool, I was thinking something along those lines. I kept in Cabals, and they felt super medium.

So I'd do something like:
-2 Angler, -2 Cabal, -2 Probe
+1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Darkblast, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember?

I could also bring in Painful Truths, as I felt that my life total was fairly high most of the time. I don't think they have enough targets at the same CMC to bring in EE. Dismember is great just as removal, but they don't have any really big dudes I'd be super concerned with.

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Originally Posted by pnutbutr

First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

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It behooves you to play the deck you know best in most tournaments.

That being said, I don't think it's too hard to just pick up. Sequencing is complex sometimes, but it really boils down to using mana efficiently, landing a threat, and disrupting your opponents. There's somebody in this thread that switched from ANT I believe and has been having success with the list despite being new to the deck. He did have years of experience in the format in general though. Format knowledge is really important to Grixis Delver (as it is with most Legacy decks).

You could always test on Cockatrice or something.

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Originally Posted by pnutbutr

First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

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If you're familiar with Legacy as a format it's rather easy to pick up Grixis (and propably one of the reasons why it's so popular). You generally just play good cards in the current lists and you don't have to play stifle if you don't want to (which would be a card that'd need some practice or familiarity, e.g. by having played RUG).
Sometimes the deck just rides itself to victory, e.g. when you just draw enough countermagic against combo while landing a threat, when you land a young pyromancer and you get to untap (very much like dark confidant here) with it because your opponent doesn't have removal or when you play an angler against non-white decks and you opponent just can't deal with it.
Not saying that it's easy to master, knowing when to play especially your cantrips optimally is key to every delver deck (e.g. brainstorm generally gets better every turn you keep it in your hand).
It's a lot easier to play a delver deck that at some point just wins than a (non-Sneak&Show) combo deck where you can screw up your sequencing and just lose the game to yourself at some points.

This is super helpful guys... Thanks!

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Originally Posted by pnutbutr

This is super helpful guys... Thanks!

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Give xmage a try. I use it for testing. It has rules like mtgo but it's free

Bit late but here's a quick report from a weekly win-a-box I attended last weekend. I went 3-1 and got 2nd out of 11 players.

Decklist:
Instant (19)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce

Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Young Pyromancer

Land (18)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (9)
1x Forked Bolt
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Baleful Strix
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Dread of Night
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Surgical Extraction

Round 1: bye. I'll take it!
(1-0)

Round 2 vs 12 Post
Game 1:
I don't remember some of the early turns but I was able to Wasteland a Cloudpost and counter a few of his early plays, while riding a Delver. The interesting part came when he was finally able to get enough mana to cast an Ulamog. My board was: flipped Delver, un-flipped Delver and Gurmag Angler, Usea, Usea, and Volc. I had a Lightning Bolt + land in hand and the opponent was at 9 life. In response to Ulamog, I bolted my opponent to 6, fearing the worst. Ulamog triggers and he exiles the flipped delver and... the Gurmag Angler. Pass. I reveal a Brainstorm to flip my Delver and swing in, opponent at 3. Cast Brainstorm and see: Lightning Bolt, Volcanic, Ponder. Exactsies! My opponent should have exiled both Delvers since he could just chump my zombie fish. I guess he wanted to swing in with Ulamog and was worried about a crackback with him at only 6 life?

Game 2:
Out: -2 Abrupt Decay, -4 Daze
In: 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Grafdigger's Cage (he was playing Green Sun's Zenith)
I basically drew the nuts with DRS, Wasteland, Daze, Usea, Fetch, Force, Delver. I was able to Waste his first couple of land drops, while swinging in with a delver flipped off Gitaxian Probe. On turn 3, I drew a Therapy and Probe him, seeing 3 Primeval Titans and not much else. He scooped it up after I 3-for-1'd him with only 2 land in play, neither of them Cloud/Glimmerposts
(2-0)

Round 3 and I realize the only other 2-0 is my buddy Zach on RUG Lands :( This is gonna hurt.
Game 1:
Lands does lands things and I can't get anything to stick to the board while he cycles Punishing Fires and Wastelands. He makes a 20/20.

Game 2:
Out: -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Daze, -2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Lightning Bolt
In: 1 Painful Truths, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Surgical Extraction, 3 Cabal Therapy
I'm not sure if this game went better or even worse but I got out to a good start with a flipped Delver and a DRS. DRS gets Punishing Fire and I quickly just lose to double Maze of Ith and looping Punishing Fires as I was only able to Wasteland 1 of his Groves. Sorry I don't remember much of his match as it wan't really me playing Magic so much as me getting my face beat in. I scooped it up once he had 2x Groves, Punishing Fire, and 2x Maze of Ith (one was a Thespian Stage copying his Maze). Rough one, for sure.
(2-1)

Round 4 vs my buddy Donny on ANT
Game 1:
I mull to 6, but keep a hand with Daze, Pierce, fetch, Force, Delver, Ponder. I scry a Daze and keep it on top. The early turns see me dazing and countering whenever countering the spell would leave my opponent with no or 1 mana left in his pool. I draw into a zombie fish to eat all the permission now in my yard and ride him and Delver to victory.

Game 2:
Out: -2 Gurmag Angler, -2 Abrupt Decay -1 Forked Bolt
In: 3 Cabal Therapy, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Grafdigger's Cage (for Past in Flames)
This game plays out much like the one before it. Not really anything of note except that I kept a permission-heavy hand and taxes his resources with Spell Pierce, timely Dazes, beats with Delver and Young Pyromancer tokens. The first few turns were filled with him casting Duress, and me countering his rituals until I eventually ran him out of resources and swung for lethal.
(2-0)

Overall, I feel like I played very well, but I also got a bit lucky on either favorable, or neutral matches (besides Lands, that is). Sometimes that's all ya need. This run also ended a string of 1-2's and 1-1-1's at my LGS's Tuesday Night Legacy so it felt especially good to see the reps are paying off.

P.s. Zach on RUG Lands took it, going 4-0. If you're curious to see his list, he wrote the Lands Primer over on MTGSalvation, you should check it out!

First of all congratulations!
I don't agree with some of your sideboard choices though.

12-post (I guess he plays the UG version?):
- Pyroblast is really good against their show/tell backup plan, you might also just counter a brainstorm. Also Ancient Grudge helps you destroying random expedition maps, but most importantly pithing needle on wasteland (they sometimes even play some in the mainboard).
- Cut the 2 Baleful strix for these 2 cards, they're really bad. When blocking Titan you still take 5 damage and give them 4 lands (most likely loci), when trading with eldrazi even worse things happen.
- thumbs up for not bringing in Surgical Extraction!

RUG Lands:
- I'd strongly recommend leaving in the decays to target molten vortex and expedition most importantly.
- same with engineered explosives which seems ok
- Painful Truths just seems really greedy with cmc 3, this matchup is also not about card advantage
- Cabal Therapy also seems really bad since most of the time he either has stuff he plays on t1 (expedition, gamble), instant stuff (intuition, crop rotation) or irrelevant stuff (p-fire, loam).
- pyroblast against intuition seems fine (I know it's not great)
- Since the RUG versions I know play a lot of artifacts Ancient Grudge seems also fine, at worst you get some Mox Diamonds
- so overall I'd bring in 1 Grudge, 1 Explosives, 1 Needle, 1 Pyroblast and 1 Surgical for 1 Forked Bolt and 4 Dazes

I'd also recommend giving Invasive Surgery a try, it would also help your combo matchups (Show&Tell, Storm, Elves).

ANT:
- I first didn't believe how strong Surgical Extraction is but it's pretty much an additional Deathrite Shaman, most of the time denying the PiF-route by being able to hit a tutor or a ritual. I started playing ANT myself a while ago and can attest to that.
Past that there're the scenarios where you can see their hand via probe and eventually rip something out of their hand if they have the same card in their gy. Or you can get a look at their hand if they brainstormed in response to your cabal therapy! It's really a great card!
- Also Pyroblast is just in general a decent card against Storm. Sure it only hits cantrips but Storm needs a critical number of spells, even more so if it can't go off via PiF or Empty. Also hitting a Brainstorm so they can't change their hand helps your Therapies a lot.
- overall I'd cut 2 additional bolts for Surgical and Pyroblast.

Edit: I just found a recent youtube video of the Trollywood #11 where a guy called Pascal D. pilots a list very similar to yours (unfortunately couldn't find a decklist, but he plas Decay maindeck though he has at least 1 stifle as I saw when shuffling for game 2).
Just wanted to post it here because he played it really nicely and I really only could find one small mistake, can you guys find it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZJeP7m5Kz8

On a unrelated note: On the 15th I'm going to Frankfurt to participate in the MKM series. It's gonna be a relatively large European tournament so I'm super stoked as I unfortunately don't get the chance to participate in many events since I don't have a local community but only a buddy.
I'll definitely be playing all rounds and gonna write a tournament report here!

1st place after 9 rounds at the BOM Annecy with 302 players

WHITE Peter - Grixis Delver - Top 8 Legacy

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard 15
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyroblast
1 Envelop
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Winter Orb
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

Rest of the top 8 can be seen here
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/ur...vent=18&evt=18

Eldrazi got first.

The finals were belcher vs Eldrazi.

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.

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+1

Why are you playing Envelop over Invasive Surgery?

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

+1

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Oops. My bad.:D

Top 8'ed the Legacy showdown at GP New York this past Saturday with a standard list. There were over 100 players who showed up. 7 rounds of swiss, cut to top 8.

This is my first time playing the deck so I can definitely use some tips and feedback re: my sideboarding for each match up and a really interesting situation in G3 of my quarterfinal match.

I expected a ton of Eldrazi decks floating around, given this is a standard GP, and it is one of the cheapest Tier 1 decks you can build. Hence, the True Name instead of Clique and the Dismember instead of forked bolt MD.

MD:
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Young Pyro
2 Angler
1 True Name

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Therapy
1 Spell pierce
1 Dismember

8 Blue fetches
3 Volc
2 Sea
1 Trop
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Baleful Strix
1 Painful Truth
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Cabal Therapy

I typed up a whole tournament report then MTGthesource decides to log me out and delete everything I wrote the in past couple of hours :frown::frown::frown::frown:

I'll just list the match-ups and the SB plan, let me know if anyone's interested in any particular match:

R1 - RUGb Lands (Lose 0-2)

On the Play:

-4 Bolts
-1 Dismember
-2 Daze

+2 Needles
+1 Surgical
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+2 Invasive Surgery

I kept in therapy since the 4 color version has more spells and is slower than the straight RG version. Daze might still be better on the play, though, so I'm not sure about this one.

R2 - Eldrazi (Win 2-1)

On the Draw:

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Therapy
-2 Probe
-1 Ponder

+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

On the Play:

Same as draw, but I kept the spell pierce and took out one more ponder

The plan is to out tempo them, as they have more powerful threats in the late game. some cantrips came out so we don't get screwed by thorns too much.

R3 - Grixis Delver (Win 2-0)

On the draw:

-4 FOW
-4 Daze

+2 Strix
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+1 Painful Truth
+1 Explosive

Not sure what I would take out for dazes if there were a game 3 where I'm on the play, probably just some combo of probe/ponder/therapies.

R4 - Infect (Win 2-1)

On the Draw and on the Play:

-2 Angler
-1 True Name
-1 Trop
-2 Ponder

+2 Needles
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+2 Pyroblast

I dislike daze on the draw, but have found that one of the easiest way to lose is in the early game where you don't have enough mana to interact with them. But I can totally see cutting daze instead of ponder. Also explosive is an option, but I think it's too slow. Ancient grudge would've came in if I didn't have 2 needles already, which are way better because you don't have to hold up 2 mana to kill the inkmoth only when they activate it. The grudge just felt overkill, since we also have wastelands to deal with them.

R5 - Infect (Win 2-0)

See above

R6 - UR Delver (Win 2-0)

On the draw:

-2 FOW
-4 Daze
-1 Dismember

+2 Strix
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+1 Explosive

I like the 2 FOW for early interaction vs. stifle and whatnot on the draw. On the play, I would probably take out the FOW completely, -1 therapy -1 explosive and +4 Daze.

R7 - Mono red werewolf stompy and 8 moons (Win 2-1)

On the Draw:

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Therapy
-2 Probe
-1 Ponder

+1 Needles
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

On the Play:

Same as draw, but I kept the spell pierce and took out one more ponder


QF - Burn (Lose 1-2)

On the Draw:
-2 Probe
-1 Dismember
-3 wasteland

+2 Invasive surgery
+1 Therapy
+1 Explosive
+1 Grim
+1 Strix

On the play:

-2 Probe
-1 Dismember
-3 wasteland

+2 Invasive surgery
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

This was the hardest SBing all day. I swayed back and forth on bringing in needle just for lavamancer but decided against it since we have our own, but in hindsight, I should've bought it in. I ended up losing g2 to getting burned out by lavamancer activations =(

i also wasn't sure if I shouldtake out all 4 probes, since I need them for therapy to be more effective. In the end I cut 2, but it never came up during the match.

Congratulations to you, too!
Against Burn I dislike Gitaxian Probe personally since it's just too clunky because you almost never want to play life (unless you have a nut draw) and it's just too slow otherwise. The first card to name is almost always PoP though while with the flashback you can often times get a Fireblast (which they won't play unless they have tons of lands), so the probes aren't really necessary in my experience.
I also feel weird about boarding out so many Ponders since I'm pretty much always happy to have one in your starting hand, you never know what you might encounter and which answers you have to dig for.

Gitaxian Probe has been a huge point of contention for me with this list. I've been running 3 probes and a second spell pierce for a while, in both my Therapy and Abrupt Decay Grixis builds.

The reasoning is that while Probe is a powerful card when combined with Therapy, Angler or Pyromancer, on its own it is not particularly powerful. Its still worth a slot, but drawn in multiples it quickly becomes a liability.

The main liability is for mulligan decisions. An opening hand with 2 Probes in it is difficult to evaluate because you essentially have a 5 card hand + 2 random cards from your deck rather than knowing all 7 of the cards that are going to be in your hand.

The secondary liability is the life loss becoming a factor. 2 life to draw a card is usually not a big deal. However, when you draw Probe off Probe, or have 2 Probes to cast, 4 life can be very big in games that come down to a race.

Does this make sense? Am I undervaluing Probe? Keep inn mind that I'm not trying to claim that Probe is a bad card or that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'm trying to argue that the fourth Probe is the weakest card in the deck, and that one extra disruptive card is more powerful than it.

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Originally Posted by WashableWater1

Gitaxian Probe has been a huge point of contention for me with this list. I've been running 3 probes and a second spell pierce for a while, in both my Therapy and Abrupt Decay Grixis builds.

The reasoning is that while Probe is a powerful card when combined with Therapy, Angler or Pyromancer, on its own it is not particularly powerful. Its still worth a slot, but drawn in multiples it quickly becomes a liability.

The main liability is for mulligan decisions. An opening hand with 2 Probes in it is difficult to evaluate because you essentially have a 5 card hand + 2 random cards from your deck rather than knowing all 7 of the cards that are going to be in your hand.

The secondary liability is the life loss becoming a factor. 2 life to draw a card is usually not a big deal. However, when you draw Probe off Probe, or have 2 Probes to cast, 4 life can be very big in games that come down to a race.

Does this make sense? Am I undervaluing Probe? Keep inn mind that I'm not trying to claim that Probe is a bad card or that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'm trying to argue that the fourth Probe is the weakest card in the deck, and that one extra disruptive card is more powerful than it.

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I think probe is a fantastic tool of the deck. Most delver decks want probe, but Grixis is really the only one that can realistically support it due to its synergy with pyromancer and cabal therapy. I find it almost never a dead draw and the lifeloss is usually pretty minimal. If I find multiples in my hand it then becomes my go to FoW pitch card. Knowing our opponents hand is value that is hard to underestimate, not only to combo with cabal therapy, but how to use our wastelands and shape our game plan, which is key in Grixis due to the diversity of threats we can present.

I love probe, and was playing 3 at some point eventually going back to 4 and really haven't been tempted to go back. That being said its often a card I cut in the grindy match ups. If I'm pulling my cabal therapies out of the deck post board, I'm also nearly guaranteed to pull at least 2 probes out as well.

I think 4 probes is propably a must for the versions that run cabal therapies. Hell, Noah even plays Vendilion Clique for additional ways to look at your opponent's hand.
I agree though that having multiples in the opening hand is really bad, also later on you're often forced to pay life even for topdecked probes because you don't know if and which of your mana you'll need which makes them either punishing or slow.
I went back to 3 with my stifle version and am super happy with it. I also shaved the list down to 3 YP and 3 therapies in the board.

Quick question, are there any threats or situations that warrant flashing back cabal therapy and saccing your only threat on the board? Ive sometimes sacced a delver to hit a tarmogofy in hand because I knew i didn't have any counters left and it woulda been big enough to dodge lightning bolt. Always been wondering if that was a correct play or not.

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Originally Posted by maraxusofkelds

Quick question, are there any threats or situations that warrant flashing back cabal therapy and saccing your only threat on the board? Ive sometimes sacced a delver to hit a tarmogofy in hand because I knew i didn't have any counters left and it woulda been big enough to dodge lightning bolt. Always been wondering if that was a correct play or not.

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Sounds like the correct play to me.

I think sacrificing your only threat for cards that would otherwise shut you out of the game is fine. You should be able to find another with how many cantrips the deck runs.