[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

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Originally Posted by Barook

You can't expect All is Dust & World Breaker to work as intended when you run 4x Wasteland. :really:

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I think it meant he played decks with wasteland in it, not that he's playing wasteland :)

I played the side event at gp Toronto today going 5-1, finishing 5th - I believe the event had 64 people. All is dust was the MVP (followed by thought knot seer and displacer) but nothing won me games like all is dust did.

I actually only played with 2 but went out and bought a 3rd right after the tournament. Wouldn't play with less than 3 going forward.

Side note but tournament was great, well run and really can't say enough good things about my opponents. All of them were great and fun to play against.

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Originally Posted by Barook

You can't expect All is Dust & World Breaker to work as intended when you run 4x Wasteland. :really:

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Not sure if sarcasm or just was unclear in my state from this past week, but I wasn't running Wastelands, just the four decks I played in swiss all had Wastelands in them, which made me shy away from overloading on the 7 drops.

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Originally Posted by Nocley

Not sure if sarcasm or just was unclear in my state from this past week, but I wasn't running Wastelands, just the four decks I played in swiss all had Wastelands in them, which made me shy away from overloading on the 7 drops.

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Nevermind, I was just tired.

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

All is dust was the MVP (followed by thought knot seer and displacer) but nothing won me games like all is dust did.

I actually only played with 2 but went out and bought a 3rd right after the tournament. Wouldn't play with less than 3 going forward.

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That matches pretty much with my experiences, although Smasher deserves a honorable mention as well for stealing alot of games.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Nevermind, I was just tired.


That matches pretty much with my experiences, although Smasher deserves a honorable mention as well for stealing alot of games.

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Absolutely smasher is great, stole me a few games as well. Endless one was really effective too, especially with mimics on board. Can really pump them and swing for a lot of damage.

The only change I'd make to the main will be cutting a Dismember. I found it very underwhelming and it's all kinds of awful with ancient tomb.... really wasn't impressed but I feel it's still a necessary evil as a 1 of. Unsure what I'll replace it with but likely a Warping Wail.

For now the only change I'll make to the sb is to go to 3 all is dust. I played the helm/Leyline combo but no graveyard decks or prison decks at all, so never boarded them in.

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

Absolutely smasher is great, stole me a few games as well. Endless one was really effective too, especially with mimics on board. Can really pump them and swing for a lot of damage.

The only change I'd make to the main will be cutting a Dismember. I found it very underwhelming and it's all kinds of awful with ancient tomb.... really wasn't impressed but I feel it's still a necessary evil as a 1 of. Unsure what I'll replace it with but likely a Warping Wail.

For now the only change I'll make to the sb is to go to 3 all is dust. I played the helm/Leyline combo but no graveyard decks or prison decks at all, so never boarded them in.

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I'm still not sure why Spatial Contortion isn't seeing more play. I'm I it's only champion?

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I'm still not sure why Spatial Contortion isn't seeing more play. I'm I it's only champion?

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You make a good point, it deserves more testing. I suspect it can even be used offensively from time to time as well, on thought-knots/Smashers/Endless Ones. I will give them a try in the Dismember slot and see if I like it.

Here's a mini report for my games at the GP.

First, the list, courtesy of Barook, though I did make a few changes.

3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer

2 Dismember
2 Warping Wail

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorns of Amethyst
1 World Breaker
1 Trinisphere
2 All is Dust

Here was my matchup breakdown. As I mentioned above, 64 person tournament with no top 8 and I ended up going 5-1.
Enchantress (2-0)
Food Chain (2-1)
Elves (2-1)
Burn (1-2) *Price of Progress is AWFUL, especially in multiples...
Aluren (2-1)
High Tide (2-0)

I had no idea how to sideboard against half the decks, so I mostly didn't. Most of my games outside Burn and High Tide I brought in All is Dust, which single handedly won me the Aluren match and did serious work against some other decks as well. The Aluren matchup it literally saved the day as a top deck, with TKS on the board and my opponent at 7 heath. He had board control, I drew all is dust, cast it, swing. Draw go, match. I never would have won that match without it.

Displacer is absolutely flithy... Only once had trouble casting him, despite being slightly greedy with only 9 white sources. Chalice obviously was amazing as always.

I didn't play Reanimator, though I saw it in the room and therefore, didn't bring in my Leylines or Helms at all. I want to keep them there for the time being and see how they end up doing but I'll definitely be going up to 3x All is Dust for more testing. Struggling with what to cut but likely the Trinisphere, even though it really helped me in the Elves matchup. Maybe a Ratchet Bomb, didn't board it in all day but I also didn't play against any Mentor Miracles or Pyromancer decks, which is really the reason I'm running them.

Lastly, the Urborg was great, I really like it as a one of to be able to avoid damage from Ancient Tombs. I surprisingly drew it rather frequently and only a few times I wished it was another land, generally a white source or sol land of some sort but we're fairly maxed out on the latter right now. Overall, pretty happy with the deck but need a replacement for Dismember IMO. Will be testing Spatial Contortion next but certainly open to any suggestions.

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

You make a good point, it deserves more testing. I suspect it can even be used offensively from time to time as well, on thought-knots/Smashers/Endless Ones. I will give them a try in the Dismember slot and see if I like it.

Lastly, the Urborg was great, I really like it as a one of to be able to avoid damage from Ancient Tombs. I surprisingly drew it rather frequently and only a few times I wished it was another land, generally a white source or sol land of some sort but we're fairly maxed out on the latter right now. Overall, pretty happy with the deck but need a replacement for Dismember IMO. Will be testing Spatial Contortion next but certainly open to any suggestions.

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Congrats on the run.

Both of these comments above seem in line with what I've been thinking as I've been testing online (a lot of 4-1 and 3-2 runs with Barook's list +/- some sideboard cards). I've cut the Thorns in the SB for Ratchet Bomb (heyoooo YPyromancer tokens) but I've noticed the majority of my uses for Dismember would be met by Spatial Contortion. The one exception seems to be Batterskull, and in many of those cases, I could deal with the three life swing to kill it off, since I'm keeping my own 4 life. This is, as you mentioned, compounded by the ancient tomb problem. I'm intrigued to try Urborg for the same reason. I may go 2 Contortion/2 Wail in the main for a bit and see how that goes, moving Dismember to the sideboard (2/2/2 split). Would love to know where you land with things.

Another league run: 3-2 - started out good, just to be ruined by fucking Delver yet again. :mad:

R1: Reanimator 2-0
R2: Zombardment 2-0
R3: Merfolk 2-0
R4: BUGr Delver with Bolts 1-2
R5: Grixis Delver 1-2

My track record against Delver continues to be rather poor to the point where something needs to be done. Current run was with Ratchet Bomb - didn't really impress me. And as a token sweeper it sucks because it hits your Chalice & Endless One.

Both BUG and Grixis pitch stuff to force (flashback Therapies in case of Grixis) and both exile cards to DRS - alot. So Corrupted Crossroads with Wasteland Stranglers are an option in the 75. One nice thing about Strangler is that it can process opposing AVs against Shardless. But cuts are hard. I've learned to enjoy the value/ramp from Reshaper and Stranglers are so much worse in the mirror. And Stranglers just as a SB option seems pretty meh as one could just run Spatial Contortion instead without further straining the mana or jumping through the exile hoops.

Another variant could be Eldrazi Skyspawner - also 3 power (2 which are evasive), potential ramp & abuse with Displacer, produces sac fodder for Liliana.

But neither option sounds 100% appealing to me. I do think the problem can be tackled (see: current build vs Shardless), but it requires alot of theorycrafting and the last thing I want to do is break things that I just fixed, namely the Shardless match-up.

I think the deck needs more removal overall if it wants to stand a chance against Delver, thus I'm leaning towards the Strangler plan. I'm still undecided about the actual numbers in the 75 as it feels like this would require a shift in the entire deck, including reworking the mana base. A single Urborg could become an option again - or 3 Crossroads. But the last thing I want to do is cut down the number of Factories as two copies are simply not enough vs Control, namely Miracles & Shardless. Going up to 25 lands could work, although I'm not a fan of that. I don't like that Wasteland Stranglers are probably vanilla 3/2s that require black (unlike Reshaper) in certain matches, thus I'm not keen about running them in the MD.

To sum up my considerations so far:

MD changes:
-2 Brushlands, +2 Corrupted Crossroads
-1 another card (maybe City?), +1 Crossroads (could be Urborg, but see reason below why Crossroads)
-1 Matter Reshaper, +4th Displacer to the MD, hence third Crossroad to ensure the white mana count (a single Matter Reshaper won't make or break the Shardless match-up)

-1 Karakas (sucks when you play against legends, but the current number of decks running really relevant legends is about ~8% while Delvers are at 15%)
-1 Displacer (moved to MD)
+2 Wasteland Strangler

Dismember is debatable, but I like them vs Miracles (due to Mentor), the mirror, Gurmag, random fatties, Reanimator for their utility 5/5s etc. 1x World Breaker could be cut, but I like to actually draw them as tutoring for them is rather rare.

But maybe I'm just overthinking things and we should just run 4x Spatial Contortion in the 75.

I'm looking forward to input here.

@wasabizod: Batterskull can be handled with Displacer.

Barook if you're going the Corrupted Crossroads route - why go strangler, when you can go red for a sweeper like Kozilek's Return?

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Originally Posted by Cire

Barook if you're going the Corrupted Crossroads route - why go strangler, when you can go red for a sweeper like Kozilek's Return?

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Cavern of Souls doesn't tap for Kozilek's Return. Thus you don't have enough colored sources to reliably run it, not even close. It would be a nice solution, I guess, but not worth fucking up the manabase.

it's almost impossible to add another color AND keep Mishra's Factories. If you do add another color and a 25th land, your Lotus Petals should be Mox Diamonds. Can confirm Skyspawner owns Delver decks, especially w/ Displacers, AND Wasteland Strangler is very good vs Shardless for the reasons you mentioned. I think Jitte's can move to the sideboard to make room for more 3-drops in the main.

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Originally Posted by f7eleven

it's almost impossible to add another color AND keep Mishra's Factories. If you do add another color and a 25th land, your Lotus Petals should be Mox Diamonds. Can confirm Skyspawner owns Delver decks, especially w/ Displacers, AND Wasteland Strangler is very good vs Shardless for the reasons you mentioned. I think Jitte's can move to the sideboard to make room for more 3-drops in the main.

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Mox Diamonds are bad as they can be dead draws and actually cost you mana in the long run more often than I like.

My main concern is trading percentages with other decks. How much game do we sacrifice vs Shardless by running Strangler MD in place of Reshaper? What about the mirror? Other matches where both are 3/2s for 3, except Strangler is harder to cast?

As for the list, I would probably start off with something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Corrupted Crossroads
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 All Is Dust
2 World Breaker
1 Warping Wail
5 flex slots (could be a mixture of Wasteland Strangler, Spatial Contortion, 3rd Dismember, 3rd Karakas or something completely different)

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Originally Posted by Barook

Mox Diamonds are bad as they can be dead draws and actually cost you mana in the long run more often than I like.

My main concern is trading percentages with other decks. How much game do we sacrifice vs Shardless by running Strangler MD in place of Reshaper? What about the mirror? Other matches where both are 3/2s for 3, except Strangler is harder to cast?

As for the list, I would probably start off with something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Corrupted Crossroads
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 All Is Dust
2 World Breaker
1 Warping Wail
5 flex slots (could be a mixture of Wasteland Strangler, Spatial Contortion, 3rd Dismember, 3rd Karakas or something completely different)

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In my opinion instead of making all those changes just jam 4 spatial contortions first. I think it does a lot for the u/r match up and is also pretty good against D/T.

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

In my opinion instead of making all those changes just jam 4 spatial contortions first. I think it does a lot for the u/r match up and is also pretty good against D/T.

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I agree here, already tinkering with Strangler is a bit much. It might be worth while trying the Urborg at 1 line, maybe cutting Traitors down to 1? The list looks fine originally, and I do like the Brushlands. Might be worth while trying the Contortions out instead of Dismember, and playing the 2 Dismember out in the SB. Displacer at 4 looks okay, but I personally am liking the 3 line of it with the 1 in the sideboard. In honesty, I think trying out the likes of Rachet Bomb/4 Contortion (2 MB and 2 SB) is your best bet. As noted above, really the only major thing you are killing with Dismember is Batterskull, and you already deal with that via Displacer?

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Originally Posted by xArabOfficerx

I agree here, already tinkering with Strangler is a bit much. It might be worth while trying the Urborg at 1 line, maybe cutting Traitors down to 1? The list looks fine originally, and I do like the Brushlands. Might be worth while trying the Contortions out instead of Dismember, and playing the 2 Dismember out in the SB. Displacer at 4 looks okay, but I personally am liking the 3 line of it with the 1 in the sideboard. In honesty, I think trying out the likes of Rachet Bomb/4 Contortion (2 MB and 2 SB) is your best bet. As noted above, really the only major thing you are killing with Dismember is Batterskull, and you already deal with that via Displacer?

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Ratchet bombs are a bit awkward in this deck since you destroy your chalices and endless one at 0. Dismember can be cast under blood moon, it also gets goyf and Magus of the Moon, although it doesn't come up that often. If we get more colorless source, the transition to contortion would be better.
Maybe 1 strangler would be better than 2, so you can use reshaper and once in a life time live the dream of flipping it from a chumped goyf/batterskull.

Have anyone tested extensively the Painter matchup? It seens a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Silverflame

Ratchet bombs are a bit awkward in this deck since you destroy your chalices and endless one at 0. Dismember can be cast under blood moon, it also gets goyf and Magus of the Moon, although it doesn't come up that often. If we get more colorless source, the transition to contortion would be better.
Maybe 1 strangler would be better than 2, so you can use reshaper and once in a life time live the dream of flipping it from a chumped goyf/batterskull.

Have anyone tested extensively the Painter matchup? It seens a nightmare.

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Well if we are utilizing Brushlands, they provide the colorless source. Our deck runs on colorless options, so I do not see a problem with that aspect. Too me it seems Contortion provides a more upside than Dismember does, which is why I think it should be played over Dismember MB. This does not mean cut Dismember entirely, but run it in the SB for those matches against Goyf and Magus. If we take let say Barook's build, we find the colorless sources to be:

2x Brushlands
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Ancient Tombs
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x City of Traitors

There are options here, so I don't see why we are not running Contortion. Additionally, there is the case where we pop it on our Reality Smashers and pop some extra damage.

I'll just move the Displacer to the MD and test 4x Contortion in the SB and see how it goes later this week.

Whether or not Contortion should be played over Dismember in the MD is up to debate and I want to wait for my playtesting results first before making any judgements. Dismember can be cast for :1: (which can be important, due to tempo or being under a Blood Moon effect) and kills more creatures - something that should taken into consideration as well.

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

In my opinion instead of making all those changes just jam 4 spatial contortions first. I think it does a lot for the u/r match up and is also pretty good against D/T.

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What's the list? I'm trying the following:

Removal Heavy Eldrazi

-20 Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer

-11 Removal
4 Spatial Contortion
2 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

-4 Prison
4 Chalice of the Void

-25 Lands and Mana Accel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Karakas
1 Urborg
3 Lotus Petal

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Originally Posted by Barook

I'll just move the Displacer to the MD and test 4x Contortion in the SB and see how it goes later this week.

Whether or not Contortion should be played over Dismember in the MD is up to debate and I want to wait for my playtesting results first before making any judgements. Dismember can be cast for :1: (which can be important, due to tempo or being under a Blood Moon effect) and kills more creatures - something that should taken into consideration as well.

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Are you dropping Reshaper to 3 then with the same list but Contortion in the Sideboard?

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Originally Posted by xArabOfficerx

Are you dropping Reshaper to 3 then with the same list but Contortion in the Sideboard?

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That's the plan. I'll then try to find some Delver variants to see how Contortion works against them before taking any further steps, if necessary. I'll also have an eye on the white count for Displacer mana with 4 copies MD.