[Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

So with new Karn on the horizon, I wanted to jot down some of my thoughts over the past couple weeks. I guess I'll post what I think I will start testing first:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
2 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
4 Random Test Spots


A quick few notes and assumptions about the board:

0) I like the look of the main a lot more than the side at the moment. As with any overhaul, the sideboard is completely in flux, especially if it's a wishboard now.

1) I am building this with the expectation that the new mulligan rule doesn't stay in legacy. I personally don't think it's a smart decision to keep the new rule, but we're talking about Wizards so anything is possible. So with that in mind, I wanted to go with a minimal yard hate list of two crypts since they can still be found game 1, and sideboard you get to bring one in and leave on in the board for E-tutor and Karn coverage. We won't know the state of graveyard decks and how much hate we'll need til the summer anyways.

2) The random test spots are for artifacts I am not sure about and want to see how they perform with Karn. At the end of the day, I plan on fitting in 4 Pyroclasm since it is so good against a large portion of the meta, especially the new UR delver lists.

3) Magus in the board? This is directly tied to testing out the maindeck LED, which I'll expand on further later. Basically having a secondary Moon effect in the 75 has always felt pretty good.

4) Grindstone side? Extra grindstones are usually the worst draw in the deck, and making it so we have a functional 10 copies main between all of our tutors should be an easy way to create another maindeck slot

5) Duplicant/Wurmcoil. 6 mana bombs for a variety of matchups.



For the main:

1) 20th Land. The extra for me will start as the second great furnace. In my initial lists this was a Mox Opal, but I don't think we run enough artifacts to reliably turn it on. I think we will want more mana to compensate for Karn's fatness, and another great furnace helps on both the casting him side and making sure the sideboard bombs resolve with Welder's help. I plan on seeing whether this spot should be another Monkey, LED, the 4th City, or just something different altogether.

2) Lion's Eye Diamond. I was only ever running this as a one-of toward the tail end of the Top era, but it was a complete bomb. I think revisiting it in this new build will help. Obviously it helps our nut draw and enables turn 2 welder shenanigans, but independent of that I am really excited to try out LED as a tutor target for Karn lines. I can envision a lot of games where we cast Karn, play LED, and grab bridge to instantly lock out combat. The follow up turn we can get another activation out of Karn for something like Lattice and still have him live at one loyalty. LED also helps to enable some all-in Recruiter lines, and can cast Magus of the Moon or Canonist in postboard games.

3) 2 Canonists/6 Blasts. I am still a really big fan of Canonist. I know others have reduced the numbers recently, I just like how it completely warps the game in our favor while also providing an easy way to steal game 1s against Storm. I feel like going to 2 is okay because Karn's passive overlaps as hate against Combo, while also giving us the ability to just grab another from the board if need be. I have kept this at 6 blasts to start just because I am comfortable with it and play Shortcake more as a stack based deck. I could see going to 3 Canonist/5 Blast if testing leans that way.

4) 3 Tutor/3 Karn. Full access to our entire 75 at all times. It also allows us to create some wiggle room where if we need an artifact asap, it can always be boarded in to be found faster with tutor/natural drawing. To create space for Karn, i think it was a simple chop of Cratermaker, maindeck EE, and the 4th copter. Dropping creatures matters less because this Karn still crews copter by himself. He also allows us to chop the chalice hate since he handles that too. The only downside is that our Delver matchup gets worse as our curve rises and cheap removal leaves the main, but I am hopeful that it won't matter too much and that pyroclasm will cover those bases.

5) 4 Painter main vs 3/1. This could be wrong. Natural Painter is one of our best plays, especially with all the blasts. Waiting to grab one with Karn seems slow, especially when 95% of the time recruiter grabs Painter and a lot of E-tutors do too. Karn just helps get the ones back that have already tanked a STP. I'll watch this one closely as well.

6) White splash. I know people have been talking about whether white is needed or not anymore. I think Karn fits in both decks. White will still be faster and more flexible, while lacking the brute force and mana stability of mono-red. That was the case before too and I don't really see that changing. Really comes down to preferred playstyle. It's similar to how Painted Stone is the pure combo version of Shortcake, mono-red is the super resilient Shortcake.



Some other random thoughts that aren't necessarily about the above 75:

1) Grim Lavamancer gets better with Karn. You can create the most ghetto Goblin Welder of all time by removing artifacts from your yard with Lavaman and then wishing them back to your hand with Karn. Lavaman can also kill random cheap artifacts like Needle after Karn turns them into a creature. For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

2) Grindstone becomes a beater. I've always wanted a Magus of the Stone. This will do for now.

3) Karn grabbing Lattice and then plus-ing gives you a 6/6 beater to either win the game or buy time against stuff like an already in play Goyf/Angler and ensure the lock stays in place.

4) I still despise Chalice and Counterbalance. Karn should help out big time against both, but if they are still a huge pain adding back Hedge-Mage as the recruitable option might be the play.


I also wanted to come up with a quick list of other artifacts that could work their way into the board. Thanks to Hollywood's recent post too for some gems.

In no particular order:

1) Great Furnace
2) Pyrite Spellbomb
3) Grafdigger's Cage
4) Mindslaver
5) Bubble Matrix
6) Trinisphere
7) Phryexian Metamorph
8) Umezawa's Jitte
9) Slash Panther
10) Spellskite
11) Winter Orb
12) Phyrexian Revoker
13) Ratchet Bomb
14) Witchbane Orb
15) Caltrops

I still need to comb through the old threads to find other potential options, and also do a deep dive on gatherer.



Anyways, this post is pretty all over the place, but I wanted to try to narrow down an approach for playing Karn and I feel like this list is a decent starting point. Karn comes out the first week of May, and then I'll be out of the country for 10 days in the middle, but after that the testing will commence. I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.

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Stream link?

I really like Slash Panther in the sideboard in the mono red iteration. Like I mentioned, he's basically instant damage to finish off a Planeswalker or get through whatever few points of damage are left. I'm not insinuating it's optimal, but my list (mono red, anyhow) is heavy on the Wish aspect between Karn and Ring.

(I also know some folks aren't digging it, so far I've had no problems with it and it has over-performed as a one-of.)

I'm also going big-time on the Liquimetal Coating/Karn/Gorilla Shaman deal, so the dynamic there is a bit different. I'm concentrating more on attrition than the combo, and adding intertwined dynamics into the deck so no draw is really "dead."

I do think Leyline gives the deck legs out of the board, but I don't know how hard it needs to lean on the white splash. Keep in mind that, even though it's just two colors, the mana base is still slightly destabilized so Wasteland and cards of the sort can stop the deck from accelerating faster than it normally should into Karn and then Lattice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

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You mean you can weld ballista with no counter on it ? :confused:

I guess you mean it's an artifact so weldable and you can activate right away

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

So with new Karn on the horizon, I wanted to jot down some of my thoughts over the past couple weeks. I guess I'll post what I think I will start testing first:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
2 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
4 Random Test Spots


A quick few notes and assumptions about the board:

0) I like the look of the main a lot more than the side at the moment. As with any overhaul, the sideboard is completely in flux, especially if it's a wishboard now.

1) I am building this with the expectation that the new mulligan rule doesn't stay in legacy. I personally don't think it's a smart decision to keep the new rule, but we're talking about Wizards so anything is possible. So with that in mind, I wanted to go with a minimal yard hate list of two crypts since they can still be found game 1, and sideboard you get to bring one in and leave on in the board for E-tutor and Karn coverage. We won't know the state of graveyard decks and how much hate we'll need til the summer anyways.

2) The random test spots are for artifacts I am not sure about and want to see how they perform with Karn. At the end of the day, I plan on fitting in 4 Pyroclasm since it is so good against a large portion of the meta, especially the new UR delver lists.

3) Magus in the board? This is directly tied to testing out the maindeck LED, which I'll expand on further later. Basically having a secondary Moon effect in the 75 has always felt pretty good.

4) Grindstone side? Extra grindstones are usually the worst draw in the deck, and making it so we have a functional 10 copies main between all of our tutors should be an easy way to create another maindeck slot

5) Duplicant/Wurmcoil. 6 mana bombs for a variety of matchups.



For the main:

1) 20th Land. The extra for me will start as the second great furnace. In my initial lists this was a Mox Opal, but I don't think we run enough artifacts to reliably turn it on. I think we will want more mana to compensate for Karn's fatness, and another great furnace helps on both the casting him side and making sure the sideboard bombs resolve with Welder's help. I plan on seeing whether this spot should be another Monkey, LED, the 4th City, or just something different altogether.

2) Lion's Eye Diamond. I was only ever running this as a one-of toward the tail end of the Top era, but it was a complete bomb. I think revisiting it in this new build will help. Obviously it helps our nut draw and enables turn 2 welder shenanigans, but independent of that I am really excited to try out LED as a tutor target for Karn lines. I can envision a lot of games where we cast Karn, play LED, and grab bridge to instantly lock out combat. The follow up turn we can get another activation out of Karn for something like Lattice and still have him live at one loyalty. LED also helps to enable some all-in Recruiter lines, and can cast Magus of the Moon or Canonist in postboard games.

3) 2 Canonists/6 Blasts. I am still a really big fan of Canonist. I know others have reduced the numbers recently, I just like how it completely warps the game in our favor while also providing an easy way to steal game 1s against Storm. I feel like going to 2 is okay because Karn's passive overlaps as hate against Combo, while also giving us the ability to just grab another from the board if need be. I have kept this at 6 blasts to start just because I am comfortable with it and play Shortcake more as a stack based deck. I could see going to 3 Canonist/5 Blast if testing leans that way.

4) 3 Tutor/3 Karn. Full access to our entire 75 at all times. It also allows us to create some wiggle room where if we need an artifact asap, it can always be boarded in to be found faster with tutor/natural drawing. To create space for Karn, i think it was a simple chop of Cratermaker, maindeck EE, and the 4th copter. Dropping creatures matters less because this Karn still crews copter by himself. He also allows us to chop the chalice hate since he handles that too. The only downside is that our Delver matchup gets worse as our curve rises and cheap removal leaves the main, but I am hopeful that it won't matter too much and that pyroclasm will cover those bases.

5) 4 Painter main vs 3/1. This could be wrong. Natural Painter is one of our best plays, especially with all the blasts. Waiting to grab one with Karn seems slow, especially when 95% of the time recruiter grabs Painter and a lot of E-tutors do too. Karn just helps get the ones back that have already tanked a STP. I'll watch this one closely as well.

6) White splash. I know people have been talking about whether white is needed or not anymore. I think Karn fits in both decks. White will still be faster and more flexible, while lacking the brute force and mana stability of mono-red. That was the case before too and I don't really see that changing. Really comes down to preferred playstyle. It's similar to how Painted Stone is the pure combo version of Shortcake, mono-red is the super resilient Shortcake.



Some other random thoughts that aren't necessarily about the above 75:

1) Grim Lavamancer gets better with Karn. You can create the most ghetto Goblin Welder of all time by removing artifacts from your yard with Lavaman and then wishing them back to your hand with Karn. Lavaman can also kill random cheap artifacts like Needle after Karn turns them into a creature. For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

2) Grindstone becomes a beater. I've always wanted a Magus of the Stone. This will do for now.

3) Karn grabbing Lattice and then plus-ing gives you a 6/6 beater to either win the game or buy time against stuff like an already in play Goyf/Angler and ensure the lock stays in place.

4) I still despise Chalice and Counterbalance. Karn should help out big time against both, but if they are still a huge pain adding back Hedge-Mage as the recruitable option might be the play.


I also wanted to come up with a quick list of other artifacts that could work their way into the board. Thanks to Hollywood's recent post too for some gems.

In no particular order:

1) Great Furnace
2) Pyrite Spellbomb
3) Grafdigger's Cage
4) Mindslaver
5) Bubble Matrix
6) Trinisphere
7) Phryexian Metamorph
8) Umezawa's Jitte
9) Slash Panther
10) Spellskite
11) Winter Orb
12) Phyrexian Revoker
13) Ratchet Bomb
14) Witchbane Orb
15) Caltrops

I still need to comb through the old threads to find other potential options, and also do a deep dive on gatherer.



Anyways, this post is pretty all over the place, but I wanted to try to narrow down an approach for playing Karn and I feel like this list is a decent starting point. Karn comes out the first week of May, and then I'll be out of the country for 10 days in the middle, but after that the testing will commence. I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.

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We are landing pretty close on lists, although the one glaring difference is Mom. I'm still on 3 x mom main as it has just been so good for me. I am also playing 2 x boros signet and 3 x lotus petal as my "fast mana" right now, but that could very well change. I like boros signet given all the sol lands in the deck and it let's you get more easily to 4 mana on turn 2 which is really what we are looking for. It also gives you white after a moon affect hits the table and can be turned into a 2/2 with Karn which has some relevance. I like mox opal as well but I agree that our artifact count is a little low to make those really effective. You would at the very least have to get in the full compliment of great furnace.
I do like the lavamancer tech. I honestly didn't consider that interaction, but given that, I think I would play it over ballista.
I am also waffling on how many canonists to play. When it's good, it's really good. But like you said, there is some redundancy with Karn against storm decks and for me, the mom's protect my painters when trying to combo the way canonist would. On the other hand, show and tell decks are really gaining popularity again, and canonist is one of our best answers to that menace.
Also, if the london mulligan rule does go into effect, you are probably going to need more graveyard hate....just sayin'.

As for some of the other issues coming up on the board, I think it's totally fine and likely optimal to be playing both e.tutors and Karn in the same deck. Not only does it give you redundancy (which is a good thing in a combo deck) but the e.tutor gives you fast answers to urgent problems (ie. against STORM or eldrazi) and helps you win "out of nowhere". Nothing better than having welder and copter on the table and tutoring in response to copter loot for whatever you need. I have won many games doing this exact thing for part of the combo piece and winning on the spot welding in that piece after pitching it to the copter.
Karn plays a similar but different role. Yes, it can get you combo pieces but it can also win on its own with lattice and can wish for all sorts of answers to other problems we might be having. It also animates copter on it's own, kills chalice and other X or 0 cost artifacts (tormod's, artifact lands, e.e., etc) and again is obviously a 1-sided null rod. That's a lot to ask of a single card in this deck.

And as to whether or not we can win by turning creatures sideways, of course we can. We have all won many games with copter and other dork beats. In fact, one of my favorite ways to win is to have a bridge on the table, draw up to 3 (or now 2 with karn), swing in with copter, and then play something to reduce my hand size again. However, that is not the primary goal of the deck. We are definitely a combo deck first, or at least that's how I play it. I think it just goes back to assessing your role in each match-up.

A couple other artifacts to consider in the board:
1. Dispeller's Capsule
2. Hope of Ghirapur
3. Filigree Familiar
4. Relic of Progenitus? (split with crypt? It also has the benefit of being found by Karn again if used)
5. Thorn
6. Brittle Effigy/Executioner's capsule
7. Triskelion/triskelavus - I might like these more than ballista at this point just because of the recursive nature of it with welder. You can use the counters, weld it out, then weld it back in with counters on it again.
8. Jitte or other equipment (for creature or burn MU?)
9. defense grid
10. Jester's Cap
11. cursed scroll

Not saying all these are good, but they do all serve a purpose and I have to admit I've tried them all at some point in my painting career.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drude1

kills chalice and other X or 0 cost artifacts (tormod's, artifact lands, e.e., etc)

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Karn kills Chalice! I missed that. Wow that's rad.

Jack,

Your post is gas! I had all but lost interest in the deck after the SDT ban and your post has me back, thanks!!!

I love the idea of a wish board. I know it's a bit cute and the cmc makes it win more but Ugin's Nexus with Karn and Welder for infinite turns would be a blast. Etched champion for beats. And definitely an equipment, Jitte as has been suggested.

4th place in the challenge today. I was punting all over the place but a combination of running hot and Karn straight up carrying got us to top 4. Lost to eldrazi there in a close 3. Main takeaway is that copter feels so much better as a secondary enabler of everything compared to the top-end plan like it was before. Having karn as a bailout lets you play so much more aggressive early

Are the results of that Legacy Challenge posted anywhere? I can't find it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

4th place in the challenge today...

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Video? Battle repport? Please?

Updated deck list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lavaman

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitis
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
3 Pyroclams
2 Surgical

Notes: Jack and I are essentially on the same list. I am on the 4th City instead of Great Furnace, along with a Lavaman instead of his Walking Ballista. I was skyped in for most of the challenge and we were able to talk through many of the lines and sequencing. I was also able to get in nearly 20 matches over the weekend. Deck felt good the entire time. The ability to go one for one with your opponent and then resolve Karn for value is huge. I was talking to Jack, and really noticed that for the first time I am totally ok with a Fatal Push killing our Painters. As I know Karn will just allow me to power through so much.

The Karn lines have been interesting to work through. Having Relic in the board really opens things up, along with this being the best version to really abuse Ensnaring Bridge. It is likely we will need to adjust the board to maximize the value of Karn, but we will need to see how that all shakes out. so far it has felt really good. Overall I would report that you can play much more aggressively in all match ups as Karn into Bridge into Lattice is just so good, that you want your Painters and Welders and Copter to be bait. That influx of pure power and pressure is something the deck never had. It is funny that we have long lamented that Wizards never gives us toys and then they basically give us exactly what we need, while we didn't even know we wanted it.

While small sample sizes match feel good. RUG, Death's Shadow, Miracles, and Grixis feel like we are in it as Karn gives us the top end that we didn't have before. I am not sure on the Lavaman/Ballista slot. It should be one of them, but for the life of me I am not sure. While curve and utility likely favors Lavaman, the ability for Ballista to really be abused with Karn likely give the edge to Ballista.

More to come, as we test.

I highly recommend trying out this list. The 3 E tutor felt good. Manabase was solid throughout the day, there is no way that a basic Plains has a spot in the deck as occasionally red was at a premium, and I would never cut a sol land for a white source. In general this is a list that DOES NOT want Mom. I would recommend testing this list (or Jack's variant as we are 73/75) before making any crazy changes. we have a minimal wish board, but it feels good while letting us fight through Elves and the like. We do not want want spells like Liquidmetal Coating and the like in this deck.

Seth

Kapncook had a Mox Opal in a test list. Did you try it?

Did you miss the 3rd maindeck Canonist? Or the REBs in the SB?

Doesn't the 4th City directly improve Walking Ballista? Do you feel you run out of fuel for Lavaman?

@Mox Opal- I may be wrong here, but I think Jack tried it and very quickly that we lacked the artifacts to reliably use the card. LED largely fills that role with Karn and just feels awesome in general.

@ Canonist- Yeah that is something we talked about. You sort of want a fourth sphere type effect in the 75 to be honest. 2 Main felt good, but it was clunky with the boarding. Obviously in those match ups like Elves and Storm when you really want early hate bears, you board in the third copy. Unfortunately, this leads to some games when you really want to wish for one with Karn to just lock the game up. Space is so tight, I am not sure we can make this work. It is definitely something to keep an eye on and Jack and I talked about it. The one thing to remember is that Karn's ability to turn off artifacts does help minimize some of the fear from storm lists.

@Blasts- We are now running 6 maindeck blasts which is ok. I know I personally dropped to five at times in the main, with the sixth in the board at times. Now we have managed to get the sixth blast back in the main, which is nice. I think having Karn and 3 Welders, helps to minimize the loss of the seventh blast. It is now less important to win counter wars, while also increasing our overall threat density.

@Lavaman- I think I am in the minority with the card, but I never felt that I struggled to fuel him. I always looked at him as a 1-2 shot creature that crews. as such he still fills that role nicely. City likely makes Ballista better, but I have not tested that. In general the City count being upped is more to support Karn into Lattice. At this time I am very conflicted about the role of Ballista/Lavaman. Both have really nice upside, and it may come down to preference and slight meta game calls. I encourage others to test them out and see what happens.

I imagine Jack will have a more complete write up soon. I plan to test some more this week and will likely have a more tested list(unlikely to be more than 2-3 cards changed) later this week. Hopefully with some sideboarding and general lines of play to help others get the ball rolling.

Seth

Thanks for the thorough answers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

@Lavaman- I think I am in the minority with the card, but I never felt that I struggled to fuel him. I always looked at him as a 1-2 shot creature that crews. as such he still fills that role nicely. City likely makes Ballista better, but I have not tested that. In general the City count being upped is more to support Karn into Lattice. At this time I am very conflicted about the role of Ballista/Lavaman. Both have really nice upside, and it may come down to preference and slight meta game calls. I encourage others to test them out and see what happens.

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I've been on both sides of the line as well. I find the inclusion of a maindeck EE to be a major factor, as it reliably wipes tokens meaning Ballista's repeated shooting is less necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

4th place in the challenge today. I was punting all over the place but a combination of running hot and Karn straight up carrying got us to top 4. Lost to eldrazi there in a close 3. Main takeaway is that copter feels so much better as a secondary enabler of everything compared to the top-end plan like it was before. Having karn as a bailout lets you play so much more aggressive early

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Nice results! Did you dod a video with your challenge? Or do you will Stream again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyanhur

Nice results! Did you dod a video with your challenge? Or do you will Stream again?

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Agreed... Jack, you need to get a regular stream going again. It's good to brainstorm (figuratively) in real time with fellow painters. Very optimistic about the results though. I would like to discuss more specifically about SB strategies. I've already had a difficult time with wish sideboard... What to side in vs leaving in SB for wish targets, etc. Seth kind of alluded to this regarding tormod's/relic. I just sometimes feel like I am at a disadvantage when I can't side in 3+ cards for a particular match up.

@Seth: when you say interaction between Karn and ballista, what exactly are you talking about? BTW, I will say that I would have to agree about mom in the current list. Karn kinda makes mom less effective towards the overall game plan. Having said that, I think I would consider the full playset of welder as it interacts extremely well with Karn.

Also, although it's expensive, what do people think about Solar Blaze as a SB sweeper? It's obviously more mana intensive than pyroclasm but it hits a lot more creatures, including eldrazi, TNN, gurmag, and also kills things like revoker without them being able to protect with Mom. It also DOES NOT kill painter. I wish it was 3 mana, but with all of the new sol lands in the deck it's not unreasonable. I might test one in the board for a little while.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drude1

@Seth: when you say interaction between Karn and ballista, what exactly are you talking about?

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Maybe that we can stand up their artifacts and shoot them with Ballista? Pithing Needle and Aether Vial cost a Karn activation and 1 Ballista counter to kill. Jitte and Sorcerous Spyglass cost 2 counters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Maybe that we can stand up their artifacts and shoot them with Ballista? Pithing Needle and Aether Vial cost a Karn activation and 1 Ballista counter to kill. Jitte and Sorcerous Spyglass cost 2 counters.

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But in both of those cases, lavaman would just be better. Obviously ballista is good because you can find it with a tutor or with Karn from the board. But main deck I'm not sure. I guess CC 3+ artifacts would potentially be murdered by ballista and not lavaman. That's the only thing I can think of.

Ah, I finally found what you were referencing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

While curve and utility likely favors Lavaman, the ability for Ballista to really be abused with Karn likely give the edge to Ballista.

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I can't figure out what synergy he's referring to either.

Both actually have synergy with Karn. Lavaman has the ability to exile cards allowing Karn to find any artifact we need. Ballista can be found after exile however. So with the power of something like Relic, you can set up slow loops with Ballista as a way to deal damage under a bridge without attacking. Currently mtgo is bugged and a Painter played after Lattice resolves no longer works. So it is important to have additional ways to win Incase your opponent doesn’t scoop.

I had to make similar plays this weekend with Copter as my Painter kill wasn’t an option. Just something to think about.

Both cards actually synergies with Karn, but I think Ballista does more.

Seth