Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
This thread is a mess. If you want to discuss statistics, start a seperate thread for it - it has no place here, and has been discussed ad infinitum before. The pros agree that anything more than 60 cards in a deck is always incorrect. Take that for what it is and move on.
JACO: Dismissing people's posts as "the worst in the thread" and backing that assertion solely with rhetoric is a) inflammatory, b) useless to the conversation. Debate rule number one: attack the ideas, not the person. Treat your fellow posters with respect or don't post.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GodzillA
JACO: Dismissing people's posts as "the worst in the thread" and backing that assertion solely with rhetoric is a) inflammatory, b) useless to the conversation. Debate rule number one: attack the ideas, not the person. Treat your fellow posters with respect or don't post.
I think I did back up my post with something other than rhetoric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
The reason there's no UR Landstill in the Amercian meta is because Blue-Red Landstill variants are garbage. Swords to Plowshares is better removal than anything Red has to offer, and cards like Electrolyze, Slice and Dice, Nevinyrral's Disk, Barbarian Ring, Faerie Conclave, and Disrupting Shoal are all pretty weak compared to other available options. Sure, if your opponent manages to do NOTHING during the first 4 turns of the game, those cards might be good in a specific situation (like if you're playing against Goblins every round, and every game your opponent manages to do nothing for the first 3 turns, and doesn't play any land disruption). You aren't even playing the card Counterspell for Allah's sake, which is one of the best tools for allowing you to get to the midgame (which is what Landstill revolves around).
Aside from the fact that this deck has put up better results than any other Landstill variant in the past 1.5 years, I also pointed out that roughly 35% of the cards presented in the UR Landstill decklist are mediocre, and I think we can all agree that they are only good in the mid to late game. Part of the problem with this is that Landstill is already good in the mid to late game (when it should be casting things like Fact or Fiction), and that by not having Counterspell in your deck you probably won't even make it to the mid to late game often enough for those cards to matter. Swords to Plowshares (as well as a vanilla Counterspell) is also better than every card listed above.
I just spent the above paragraph reiterating what I said in my previous post. I would consider that an attack on the idea of UR Landstill, as I obviously have never stated any slandering remark of Adan or any other poster here. It is my opinion that UR Landstill is inferior, just as it was Adan's opinion that Landstill shouldn't have 10-off color lands, even though the printing of Crucible of Worlds and U/x fetchlands helps greatly overcome any obstacle like that.
I agree that this thread is a mess. As evidence by infinite posts, people are apparently still interested in Landstill even though it was once deemed dead by many people. I would recommend seperate threads for the following decks:
1) UW Landstill (go ahead and include Enlighten Tutor based builds)
2) UR Landstill (if you really feel the need)
3) BUG Landstill (for some reason some people call this 'Duckhunt' here on The Source)
4) UWG Landstill
5) BHWC 4C Landstill
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JACO
I agree that this thread is a mess. As evidence by infinite posts, people are apparently still interested in Landstill even though it was once deemed dead by many people. I would recommend seperate threads for the following decks:
1) UW Landstill (go ahead and include Enlighten Tutor based builds)
2) UR Landstill (if you really feel the need)
3) BUG Landstill (for some reason some people call this 'Duckhunt' here on The Source)
4) UWG Landstill
5) BHWC 4C Landstill
I think you forgot...
6) SHIT 5C Landstill
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
It's just because I can't imagine why the UR landstill variant should be garbage in the american meta, which is full of Goblins.
And against Solidarity, it's slightly bette rthan UW landstill, because it's got a faster clock. But the playstyle ist different obv.
It sometimes has to be played as an aggro deck. I think I'll open a new thread to discuss the UR variant.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
It sometimes has to be played as an aggro deck. I think I'll open a new thread to discuss the UR variant.
There's already a UR Landstill thread here.
Duckhunt thread is here (which includes a link to an older thread on the same topic), although as far as I'm aware Duck Hunt has always referred specifically to a UB build without a green splash. I may be mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
The reason there's no UR Landstill in the Amercian meta is because Blue-Red Landstill variants are garbage. Swords to Plowshares is better removal than anything Red has to offer...
Jaco, this aspect of your argument is largely rhetorical. More importantly, it misses or entirely ignores the reason for a red splash to begin with. Working from a highly controlling standpoint, I'd be happy to agree with you that BWHC is easily the most proven and likely superior build of Landstill. The red splash can't be so directly compared. For example, Swords to Plowshares is indeed superior removal to, say, Lightning Bolt. On the other hand, Swords to Plowshares is never ever a threat, where Lightning Bolt is both removal and a threat. In short, the red splash trades the relative strength of its control elements for speed and versatility. Neither build is strictly superior in a vacuum. The red build is designed to be more agressive, to have strong game against Goblins, and to have a generally faster clock than something like BWHC. On the flip side, it's going to lose some games because of the lack of StP, Nantuko Monastary, and Deed.
I reacted to your post the way I did because it appeared to completely dismiss one build in favor of one you prefer without giving any real thought to the potential benefit provided by the allegedly inferior build. You're a good poster and a solid deckbuilder so I expect more from you than outright dismissal, that's all.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
U/W Landstill while not that great IMO is better than U/R Landstill.
U/W can bring in Mettling Mages and Stifles against Combo decks. It also has Wrath, CoP, Sacred Ground and many other things it can run against the field.
U/R will most likely have Pillar to bring in against most combo decks and we all know that Pillar is subpar to Mettling Mage, as it doesn't prevent them from loosing. Red while good against Goblins, is worse against the rest of the field.
Goblins yes is a popular deck, but it isn't the only deck you will play against. That is why U/R Landstill sucks. There was a time when U/R Landstill was tested here as well. No one is going to say wow, that U/R Landstill is fast. It doesn't really present a clock like goblins and other aggro.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Complete_Jank
U/W Landstill while not that great IMO is better than U/R Landstill.
U/W can bring in Mettling Mages and Stifles against Combo decks. It also has Wrath, CoP, Sacred Ground and many other things it can run against the field.
U/R will most likely have Pillar to bring in against most combo decks and we all know that Pillar is subpar to Mettling Mage, as it doesn't prevent them from loosing. Red while good against Goblins, is worse against the rest of the field.
Goblins yes is a popular deck, but it isn't the only deck you will play against. That is why U/R Landstill sucks. There was a time when U/R Landstill was tested here as well. No one is going to say wow, that U/R Landstill is fast. It doesn't really present a clock like goblins and other aggro.
Aha, and my build doesn't has Stifle against combo or what????
And could you please define "the rest of the field" better than that?
UR Landstill HAS got a better Combo Matchup. Whether you got Pillar, Scirocc, REB or Chalice in the Sideboard, UR Landstills clock against combo is surely faster than the one of UW Landstill.
And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.
Please give me some Matchups you THINK it's bad for UR Landstill.
The NQG-Matchup is slightly worse, but the Goblin MU, the Deadguy MU and the Combo Matchup is better. Rifter is an excellent matchup. i also believe the burn gives it a advantage against other Landstill variants.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
Aha, and my build doesn't has Stifle against combo or what????
And could you please define "the rest of the field" better than that?
What? You don't know what the top 30 decks in the environment are? Look at the "What does your Meta look like" Thread, and try playing against all those decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
UR Landstill HAS got a better Combo Matchup. Whether you got Pillar, Scirocc, REB or Chalice in the Sideboard, UR Landstills clock against combo is surely faster than the one of UW Landstill.
This is a lie. UW is better strickly because of Meddling Mage. Heck in your sideboard, you only run Chalice of the Void, which eliminates some of your clock. If Goblins is faster than you, and you get beat by them, how do you expect to beat Solidarity when Goblins isn't even fast enough many times?
Also, Pillar and Scirocc are horrible side board cards. Do I really need to explain why? If so, just ask and I'll explain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.
Please give me some Matchups you THINK it's bad for UR Landstill.
The NQG-Matchup is slightly worse, but the Goblin MU, the Deadguy MU and the Combo Matchup is better. Rifter is an excellent matchup. i also believe the burn gives it a advantage against other Landstill variants.
I could say that about many decks, but it depends on how often you play the deck, and if you only play against Goblins, it of course would be your only loss.
Fine, let me tell you why you deck posted below is complete jank.
// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
2 [TSP] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [GP] Electrolyze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
Wait, Force of Will is your only hard counter spell?
Did you ever play against Angle Stompy? It is fast, and has 5 backside that you must burn. What about Affinity? Try playing against my deck Crazed Army.
Nevinyrral's Disk can be Pithing Needled, and can do nothing before 5th turn that is a hard removal, making it practly no removal, as you are counting much of your removal as part of your clock.
Is you flying to the upcoming GP out of the question? Maybe you could have your questions answerd.
Most decks here in America try to take control by turn 2 if not by turn 1.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GodzillA
Jaco, this aspect of your argument is largely rhetorical. More importantly, it misses or entirely ignores the reason for a red splash to begin with...For example, Swords to Plowshares is indeed superior removal to, say, Lightning Bolt. On the other hand, Swords to Plowshares is never ever a threat, where Lightning Bolt is both removal and a threat. In short, the red splash trades the relative strength of its control elements for speed and versatility. Neither build is strictly superior in a vacuum. The red build is designed to be more agressive, to have strong game against Goblins, and to have a generally faster clock than something like BWHC. On the flip side, it's going to lose some games because of the lack of StP, Nantuko Monastary, and Deed.
I reacted to your post the way I did because it appeared to completely dismiss one build in favor of one you prefer without giving any real thought to the potential benefit provided by the allegedly inferior build...I expect more from you than outright dismissal, that's all.
I understand that my post may have appeared to simply be a dismissal, especially by including what appears to be a sweeping statement about an entire deck, but I can assure you it was not. Both of my previous posts simply pointed out the flaws of the UR Landstill variant posted to back up my thought process behind writing that. As a brief aside, I would argue UR Landstill probably isn't faster than BHWC Lansdstill anyway, because of how fast people often die to Nantuko Monastery. But I digress.
Just because UR Landstill has Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, and/or Electrolyze to theoretically boost it's speed does not mean it has better game against Combo decks (whereas Swords might be dead in those matches, if they aren't playing Xantid Swarm). Those cards are worthless in the face of an Ill-Gotten Gains, Orim's Chant, Remand, High Tide, Cunning Wish, Goblin Charbelcher, et cetera. Meddling Mage, backed by vanilla Counterspells and Force of Wills, are the absolute best cards you can play against every combo deck in the format worth mentioning. You aren't even playing Counterspell or Red Elemental Blast, which are two of your better in-color answers to Combo in general, and coincidentally are very good against a commonly played deck called Threshold. On a somewhat related note, if you are playing black, you also have access to Duress, which is another hammer against Combo, and is also very good against opposing Control and Aggro-Control decks.
If you are to the point in ANY match piloting Landstill where Fire/Ice, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt are actual threats, then you already have control of the game and would probably win anyway. That probably means the game has lasted 10+ turns, and you have been attacking your opponent infinite times with Mishra's Factory and/or Faerie Conclave. Which in turn means you have already survived to the point where cards like Fact or Fiction become much better options, in terms of both digging for whatever you need at that point in the game, or gaining back card advantage after you have expended your resources to get to the mid to late game.
I'm not arguing for BHWC 4C Landstill by any means, and in fact would be happier if no one else ever played it, because that's one less good deck I'd have to face in a tournament. My ego is not part of the equation. I'm simply pointing out the flaws of a UR Landstill variant, and how ill-equipped it is compared to other potential Landstill variants in a varied metagame. Not having access to a staple card like Swords to Plowshares means you lose to random decks like Reanimator, and losing to random decks in Legacy, with the available card pool, is seriously a no-no. Swords to Plowshares is the best, most undercosted, and most flexible removal spell in Legacy. In a deck where you want to just stay alive, Swords to Plowshares, along with Counterspell, enable you to do just that. This is not in a vacuum, but in reality. This is the same reality where Swords to Plowshares was removed from base-level sets long ago for power-level reasons, and Electrolyze currently not even being good enough to be played in Type 2 with any regularity.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Complete_Jank
Wait, Force of Will is your only hard counter spell?
Did you ever play against Angle Stompy? It is fast, and has 5 backside that you must burn. What about Affinity? Try playing against my deck Crazed Army.
Nevinyrral's Disk can be Pithing Needled, and can do nothing before 5th turn that is a hard removal, making it practly no removal, as you are counting much of your removal as part of your clock.
Is you flying to the upcoming GP out of the question? Maybe you could have your questions answerd.
Most decks here in America try to take control by turn 2 if not by turn 1.
I never had problems against Angel Stompy. And Affinity is of of the easiest Matchups.
By the way, my build now has some changes: -1 Stifle, -1 Wasteland, -1 Electrolyze, +3 Repeal.
And with Repeal I just give a fuck if my Disk gets needled or not.
And about that control-statement: That's why I play Shoal. It counters Aether Vial 1st Turn without having FoW ir can be used to bring through a safe 2nd Turn Standstill.
It's a fact that this deck can also stall to turn 4 via Ptch-Counter/Burn to drop a Disk. You will recover from the disadvantage of the Pitchcounters after dropping Standstill.
You obviously never played UR Landstill, so you should stop argueing with me about that. I'm confident I got more experience with this deck than you.
I already won against Angelstompy, Solidarity, Burn, Landstill Mirror, Rifter, Deadguy, Grow(red and white variants), Faerie Stompy, Affinity, IGG and even Life.dec. believe me, I wouldn't say this if I hadn't beat them by myself.
The only matchup I lost to was I unique 3color Zoo and Goblins. I really think UR Landstill IS a allrounder, no matter what metagame is played.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
You obviously never played UR Landstill, so you should stop argueing with me about that. I'm confident I got more experience with this deck than you.
I've played UR Landstill, and realized how horrible it is, for the exact reasons as stated above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.
&
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
The only matchup I lost to was I unique 3color Zoo and Goblins. I really think UR Landstill IS a allrounder, no matter what metagame is played.
Wait, so you were lying!
Ok, I'm done talking to you. I can't, and no one else should believe anything you say.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
First I didn't counted that Zoo to it, because that were a casual play, but in a tournament I never lost to another deck than goblins.
And even IF i were a liar, that won't change that you can't bring some useful arguments AGAINST UR Landstill.
I'm very disappointed that you won't talk to me now, because I'm still waiting for some G-O-O-D arguments or answers for the question "Why DOES UR Landstill suck?".
Because you brought some. And "because UR Landstills removal is inferior to the removal of UW". That's bullshit! Can you kill someone with a StoP or a WoG? No you can't. Can you kill someone with Lightning Bolt and Fire//Ice?
Yes indeed. So lets say you are playing against Solidarity, where you got tons of dead cards. What will the StoP or the WoG do instead of rotting in your hand? Yeah, nothing.
UR Landstill got the advantage, that it got less useless cards in some matchups. Plus, against slow controldecks like Rifter or The Rock, it can be aggressive.
On the last tournament, I played against BGW Rock. It was standing 1:1, because i had to recur Phyrexian Furnace with Academy Ruins to dispose Genesis and the other annoying stuff. And we had 8 minutes remaining. I killed him by switching to aggro-mode, racing him with burn and conclaves. You can't do that with UW Landstill. NEVER. NEVER EVER.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
And even IF i were a liar, that won't change that you can't bring some useful arguments AGAINST UR Landstill.
I'm very disappointed that you won't talk to me now, because I'm still waiting for some G-O-O-D arguments or answers for the question "Why DOES UR Landstill suck?".
The great points to our side of the argument have been made. JACO and I both have stated why. UR Landstill is horrible. Debating it any further with you is useless. I just leave you with your deck that you think is so great.
If your deck is so great and never loses. Fly to the Grand Prix and win.
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
I don't know where to start, I'm not arguing for or against any deck, so I'll just start with some observations.
Disk, while it can be Needled, ignores colour requirement. One of the reasons of downfall of UW Landstill was that the white source was constantly being Ported or Wasted. Disk also allows for some flexibility dealing with Vial, equipments from AS, and any other random stuff that might come up. This flexibility, on top of the no colour restriction, should not be ignored when comparing it to WoG.
Quote:
I killed him by switching to aggro-mode
This brings up an interesting point. What is Thershold? Cheap efficient beats backed up by counters, or in the case of UGr Thresh, cheap efficient beats backed up by counters and burns. How does this differ from the UR Landstill's aggro mode? UR Landstill's creature also has the ability to recur, (Crucible), and comes into play dodging counters, and socery speed removals. That's an advantage, and UW Landstill shares that advantage. Again, that's just an observation from piloting the deck as well as seeing it in action.
The point of the forum is to develop the deck, optimize it, no? While a particular list may be subpar, I don't think one should dismiss an entire deck type based on one list.
@JACO's points
I like these points that you raised. The typical burn package in UR Landstill (Bolts + Fire/Ice + something ) is designed to be cheap removals and late game reach. However they all fall short when facing Werebears and Enforcers, or even a lesser extent, Silver Knights and Angels. StP shines here, no doubt about that.
However, I do disagree with this particular part of your argument:
Quote:
If you are to the point in ANY match piloting Landstill where Fire/Ice, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt are actual threats, then you already have control of the game and would probably win anyway.
Often times after you pop a Disk, UR will likely to get a few swings in. The inclusion of burn forces the opponent to not get too comfortable with his/her life totals. Even after they recover from the initial Disk, if they are low on life, the burn gives you outs on top of the other Disks left in the deck, while completely ignoring their creatures. This is something that UW can't do. Even after a large cycled Decree (say 6 soldiers) or a hard cast one (say 2 Angels), UW still must deal with the Enforcers and Bears and other jank that stands in the way.
Typical UR might pack an upward of 8-10 burns on top of Disk, + the occasional Slice and Dice or Starstorm. That's close to 16 removals compare to UW's StP/Wrath/Vengence package, which is usually around 10. The sheer number is an advantage when top decking later on.
To summarize:
UR packs removals that are flexible, but often inefficient. (Bolts vs. Bear)
UW packs solid removal that comes online earlier, (Wrath turn 4 vs. Disk turn 5) but is often disrupted (colour denial).
Clearly each archtype has its own advantages and disadvantages. I guess for those of you who has already completely dismissed the UR deck type, move on. For those of you who haven't give up all hope yet, continue to improvise. Since this is a forum where we talk about the development and fine tuning of magic decks, let's put the whole "you are a liar, my deck > you" stuff aside, and let's focus on that. I'll get started:
Starstorm -- On turn 4, if RR is there, it acts similarly to WoG against Goblins. (I'm assuming there are no Goblin Kings MD.) It's instant speed, and can be cycled away during non-creature heavy matches. I would like recommend sub these for Slice and Dice. (At 4RR, they do the exact same thing, but Starstorm is instant and is infinitely better.)
Dealing with the 4+ butts -- Bears, Grunts, Angels, Enforcers, occasional Mongrels, guys with equipments, etc. I don't really have a solution for them at the moment, but I do think something needs to be done. As they have already pointed out, FoW alone just doesn't cut it. Shoal is conditional and requires a lot of investment. The fact that you cannot always rely on Standstill for card advantage exists both in UW and UR, that problem is not going to go away.
Changing the deck type completely -- If memory serves, the original UR type of control deck were CounterBurn. Counters + Urza's rage. I'm not saying that's the solution nor am I advocating that CounterBurn is a top tier deck. What I am saying is that it's one of the routes that UR Landstill can take, see if they can envolve into something else. Instead of control in nature, perhaps aggro control, operate on similar principle as the UGr Thresh, or control elements + burn + ACTIVE card draw instead of Standstill, etc etc. The point is, the Legacy card pool is out there, for those that do want to work on the UR type, let them, don't be too bashful.
Just my 2 cents, then again, what do I know? I'm not even in the States, I'm a damn Canadian. =)
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
midnightAce
Dealing with the 4+ butts -- Bears, Grunts, Angels, Enforcers, occasional Mongrels, guys with equipments, etc. I don't really have a solution for them at the moment, but I do think something needs to be done. As they have already pointed out, FoW alone just doesn't cut it. Shoal is conditional and requires a lot of investment. The fact that you cannot always rely on Standstill for card advantage exists both in UW and UR, that problem is not going to go away.
A solution I have recently found for this guys - but in no way limited to creatures - is Engineered Explosives. It's like a small disk which can be used immediately, and I ask you to try it out - it's pretty good (at least in the Uwr version I'm running), and can even kill Chalices and stuff. For reference, the removal suite in my deck at the moment is
4 Bolt
4 Swords
3 Fire/Ice
2 Disk
2 Explosives
1 Pyroclasm (kinda random, I know)
Only 2 Disk because many beatdown decks nowadays play either Wasteland/Port, or Daze, which makes getting Disk down in time for the first rush not probable. It's there more for the second rush or something...
On Crucible/Wasteland: I agree with the guy who mentioned that this deck tends to win anyway most of the time when it stabilizes after the first five or six turns or so, since there aren't exactly many other control decks in the meta. So if you want to start Wasting mana sources by turn six or seven, fine, but I think you would have won anyways. Since this deck is VERY mana hungry already (Manlands, Disk, Fact, Decree if you play it), playing a 3cc-Artifact which takes some turns to have an effect, OR a land which you have to sacrifice when you would rather want to build your mana supply (a lone Wasteland on turn ten isn't that good anymore) is no good thing for that deck. It probably was a good thing when there were many control decks and many possible mirror matchups, but as it now is, it has no use.
One other thing: I haven't been able to play against either yet, but it seems that any Stax variant as well as Life from the Loam-based decks should beat this deck more often than not. Can anyone talk about those matchups, what strategies are good there, and which cards work in the sideboard against those decks ?
Re: [Deck] Landstill - Former DTB
Just to chime in on Nev's Disc..
I cant tell you how many of those I've blown away before they became active. You give every deck running Burning Wish the response to nuke it, and thanks to a little push from yours truely Green Goblin is getting alot more play. Maindecked Tin Street Hooligan is not Nev's friend.
Loam decks have the build in uncounterable draw engine that makes Landstill a bye. They can get Wastelock more reliably then you and basically never die to puny hits from man lands since they have their own to block with, never getting hit by swords thanks to their own wastelands. I advise Chalice of the Void @2 since it takes care of loam itself and its universal answer of such hate cards, Burning Wish. The other good options are Meddling Mage and Exirpate but Burning Wish can easily answer both.
