[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

I tried this deck and felt like things need to work too smoothly for them to work at all. I assure you there were problems with my playing skills, but still I would like to put some thought out.

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This deck is the most skill intensive deck I've played. It takes lots of goldfishing and training to get somewhere with it.

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

I would start saying that runnin a single doomsday put me prone to lose to duress. I dont know your metagames, but i tend to face targeted discard once per tournament, so I felt insecure about it.

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You only fetch the enabler when you are going to combo. If you do it earlier, you lose it and you lose the game unless there is a good backup plan in formation. Anyway, discard is an unpleasant fight for this deck and it gets much worse if you add graveyard hate from their side, since IGG won't work and Cabal Ritual becomes Cabal Spirit Guide. Emidln stated the 3 Doomsday build is more resilient to discard. I've played a few matches with that build and I'm pleased with it, but I'm yet to test against discard. ETW is pretty useful in this match. It forces them to have more answers.

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

One other thought I kept while playing the deck was how painful to tutor for a split second answer felt. I mean, as a general answer, Threshold decks have been running Repeal. It solves everything but Gadock Teeg and it cantrips. Against an opposing goyf, its 2 extra turns of life with no card loss. It has pretty interactions with SDT and will hardly be countered by a CB. Has anyone tried it out in multiples maindeck copies?

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Split second answers are to be tutored when the opportunity shows up, as in response to Counterbalance. Obviously, if your opponent has a counter ready, you are losing your tutor. Good thing is your answer is still in the deck ready to be topdecked or tutored by something else.

Repeal is mediocre. It costs the same as Wipe Away for 2cc, but doesn't have split second. Its draw is irrelevant, since you are never going to use it if you are not ready to combo next turn. That draw may even screw Infernal Tutor somehow, but that's another story. Wipe Away also takes an untapped land away, which could be used to Chant you or to Counterspell you. Rushing River is a bomb against lock decks, taking two lock pieces in one. It's usually enough. Repeal will only allow you to combo if they only have one lock in place, which is rare except on turn 1. Echoing Truth takes N at once. Screws tokens and such. Summarizing it all, Repeal isn't better than anything else we are using.

Emidln with your new list how do you board vs threshold?? This is the bestest problem with my meta is play vs thresh at least twice a tourney.

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Originally Posted by e_hawk77

Emidln with your new list how do you board vs threshold?? This is the bestest problem with my meta is play vs thresh at least twice a tourney.

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vs Counterbalance

-4 Cabal Ritual
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Ponder
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away/Brain Freeze (depending on the matchup)
+1 Extirpate

vs Thrash

+1 Extirpate
+2 Krosan Grip
+4 Thoughtseize
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-4 Cabal Ritual

I'm currently playing:

4 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
3 Serenity
1 Brain Freeze

My maindeck right now has 3 Doomsday, 1 Meditate, 1 Infernal Tutor, 4 Ponder, 1 Cruel Bargain, 2 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains.

Edit: I haven't yet looked at if I need Helm of Awakening vs Meddling Mage from UGW or UGWb Thresh/Landstill. I think this might be a requried 1-of in the sb to make Brain Freeze work while I'm boarding out CRit.

That boarding plan sure looks funny, but I guess it makes sense, since IGG is really difficult to set up against decks with counters. And finally Meditate receives some attention <3, I've had many situations where the color requirements of BBBBBB for Doomsday just were not possible to achieve in time. With this sideboard I guess you don't play Bayou anymore, do you?

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Originally Posted by Brehn

That boarding plan sure looks funny, but I guess it makes sense, since IGG is really difficult to set up against decks with counters. And finally Meditate receives some attention <3, I've had many situations where the color requirements of BBBBBB for Doomsday just were not possible to achieve in time. With this sideboard I guess you don't play Bayou anymore, do you?

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I don't, but I'm considering it. Bayou is good against Dreadstill which is seeing a lot of play. Casting 2/3 huge sideboard cards (TS + KGrip) is really big.

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Originally Posted by emidln

vs Thrash

+1 Extirpate
+2 Krosan Grip
+4 Thoughtseize
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-4 Cabal Ritual

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I've tested this boarding plan and for me it doesn't work at all. I'll give some reasons:

• Color issues. While the inclusion of Meditate is a step in the right direction, you still need BBB to cast Doomsday. Problem is: against Tempo Threshold you have to fetch basics, otherwise you get raped by Wasteland. Reaching WUB rarely is a problem, reaching an appropriate amount of mana for Doomsday Stacks rarely is a problem, but fulfilling the color requirement of BBB for Doomsday is nearly impossible without Ritual effects, especially since you only play one Petal. While I've almost never missed Cabal Ritual's ability to produce large amounts of mana, I've always missed its ability to filter mana. If you're not lucky enough to cantrip into a Dark Ritual you have to waste a Mystical Tutor on it. And seriously, there are better Mystical Tutor targets. Duress, Chant, Extirpate, Doomsday, Brainstorm, ...
• Stack issues. Let's have a look at the most frequently used stacks:
  
  • Top in play, 2U -> Meditate,LED,LED,Petal,ToA. Shut down by Needle on Top and can't play around Stifle without a previously resolved Chant.
  • Brainstorm+2 other cards, UU -> BS,LED,LED,IGG,ToA. Dead.
  • Brainstorm+LED+2 other cards, U -> BS,LED,Petal,IGG,ToA. Dead.
  • Meditate,2U -> LED,LED,Petal,Ponder,ToA. Works.
  • Ponder/BS, 2UU -> Meditate,Petal,DRit,DRit,ToA. Works.
  
  So three of the easiest-to-set-up stacks are either dead or shut down by a single Needle. The Meditate Stack that works costs 2UBBB and the necessary mana may not be produced by LED, it doesn't work as well as with Cabal Ritual. The Ponder/BS Stack costs 2UUBBB (1BBB with LED) and is certainly the easiest one to set up, but it also requires holding back a setup card, which is not always possible.
  I can see that you've adressed the Needle problem by boarding in 2 Krosan Grips. But seriously, this is not a solution. Krosan Grip is a card that costs 3 Mana and requires fetching a nonbasic land. Mystical Tutor -> Krosan Grip is too slow (Threshold has a clock :/) and uses up your only reliable way of getting a certain combo piece. Drawing Krosan Grip seriously hurts when your opponent doesn't have Needle or you don't have Top, because in this matchup you desperately want every card to do at least something.
  
  (Note: these are the only stacks I've ever used [with slight variations like Top+Top shenanigans or a Chant in there for some more mana or a Wipe Away in there for some more mana...]. Am I missing important ones?)

To show the Needle-dependancy of this plan, a scenario that ocurred in testing:
- You've just taken a Force with Duress and Extirpated it, taking the second.
- Your board is: Island, Plains, Swamp (that's... the ideal board against Tempo Thresh, right?)
- Your hand is: LED, Dark Rit, Doomsday, Underground Sea (held back b/c of Wasteland), Tropical Island (drawn in this turn), Meditate. (looks good, right?)
- 4 life.

- Your opponent's board is: Wasteland, Trop, Volc (all untapped), lethal damage and a Needle naming Top.
- Your opponent's hand is a single card: Stifle. (you know this b/c of 'Pate)
- 19 life.

You have 3 Extra Mana in comparison to the "standard" Meditate stack. 3 Mana should be enough to play around a single Stifle, right? Ok, tell me how you do it.


I agree with boarding out Infernal Tutor in this matchup. But I absolutely can't see Ill-Gotten Gains go. Sure it's horrible as a Storm Enabler against Force of Will + Stifle and it's expensive to set up. But a) you have Extirpate, b) it makes more Doomsday stacks work without Sensei's Divining Top. Leave it in and throw the Krosan Grips out, they're way too slow.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

To show the Needle-dependancy of this plan, a scenario that ocurred in testing:
- You've just taken a Force with Duress and Extirpated it, taking the second.
- Your board is: Island, Plains, Swamp (that's... the ideal board against Tempo Thresh, right?)
- Your hand is: LED, Dark Rit, Doomsday, Underground Sea (held back b/c of Wasteland), Tropical Island (drawn in this turn), Meditate. (looks good, right?)
- 4 life.

- Your opponent's board is: Wasteland, Trop, Volc (all untapped), lethal damage and a Needle naming Top.
- Your opponent's hand is a single card: Stifle. (you know this b/c of 'Pate)
- 19 life.

You have 3 Extra Mana in comparison to the "standard" Meditate stack. 3 Mana should be enough to play around a single Stifle, right? Ok, tell me how you do it.

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I didn't see a way to win this. In this example, you are 2 generic mana (with less storm) or 2 spells (with less mana) short of winning the game. A single Doomsday with Chant in the pile won't give you enough storm, so you need to play IGG and then play Doomsday again. If that Meditate was a Brainstorm, things would be much better and you would be able to win that game. Also, if that Chant was in hand, all the effort of fitting it in the Doomsday pile, which requires enough resources to be wasted, would be avoided and game would be easier. Obviously, it doesn't always happen that way, specially counting that you have Seized and Pated them already.

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

I didn't see a way to win this. In this example, you are 2 generic mana (with less storm) or 2 spells (with less mana) short of winning the game. A single Doomsday with Chant in the pile won't give you enough storm, so you need to play IGG and then play Doomsday again. If that Meditate was a Brainstorm, things would be much better and you would be able to win that game. Also, if that Chant was in hand, all the effort of fitting it in the Doomsday pile, which requires enough resources to be wasted, would be avoided and game would be easier. Obviously, it doesn't always happen that way, specially counting that you have Seized and Pated them already.

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Hmmm... can you help me out here? I don't see how to win this even with Brainstorm instead of Meditate.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

I've tested this boarding plan and for me it doesn't work at all. I'll give some reasons:

[list][*]Color issues. While the inclusion of Meditate is a step in the right direction, you still need BBB to cast Doomsday. Problem is: against Tempo Threshold you have to fetch basics, otherwise you get raped by Wasteland. Reaching WUB rarely is a problem, reaching an appropriate amount of mana for Doomsday Stacks rarely is a problem, but fulfilling the color requirement of BBB for Doomsday is nearly impossible without Ritual effects, especially since you only play one Petal. While I've almost never missed Cabal Ritual's ability to produce large amounts of mana, I've always missed its ability to filter mana. If you're not lucky enough to cantrip into a Dark Ritual you have to waste a Mystical Tutor on it. And seriously, there are better Mystical Tutor targets. Duress, Chant, Extirpate, Doomsday, Brainstorm, ..

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No, there really aren't. Abstractly there might be better or worse spells you can find with Mystical Tutor, but concretely in storm combo the best spell to tutor for is the one that wins you the game. I'll accept no discussion on this point because it's a basic premise of playing combo. Failure to tutor for Dark Ritual just because you don't like doing it isn't an excuse. I do this very thing all the time. If I sound like a dick on this, I apologize.

@ Needle discussion

I've actually found 3 KGrip, 4 Thouhgtseize/Duress to be perfectly fine to deal with the 2 Pithing Needle that tempo thresh plays (incidentally, why I recommended the boarding strategy). There will need to be another green source (my obvservation about Bayou/Trop seems correct) to give you the ability to second KGrip against Dreadstill/Thrash. Further, IGG still doesn't help you in this situation because your draw spell is Meditate. The only thing that helps you in this situation is drawing another Duress, Chant, Mystical Tutor, having seen a Sensei's Top that you played despite not being able immediately.

The stack that comes the closest to winning (but still loses because your opponent ends up at 1 life) is this one:
Duress
LED
Petal
Ponder
Tendrils

The only actual opportunity you might have had in this situation is described here:

When did you Duress your opponent (i.e. did he have "Force, Force, Stifle" in hand, just "Force, Force", "Force, Stifle", or "Force and neither Force #2 nor Stifle")? If he had Stifle, it seems that since you are so low on lands there might have been the opportunity to win by Extirpate Stifle instead of Force eot and thus denying your opponent Stifle and the ability to play Force of Will. It's possible that this was not the case though, it simply seems likely given the few amount of lands you have in play. (Implying that it seems extremely possible to have seen Stifle on Fetch before the combo turn.)

Slightly OT:
Incidentally I listed 4 Thoughtseize as my sideboard. I'm playing a 3/1 IRL and on my MWS between Throughtseize and Duress. This is so I can add Duress to Doomsday piles.

Edit:

Unless I'm missing a scenario involving synthesizing an extra storm, Brainstorm over Meditate doesn't help anything (you're still 1 storm short and leave your opponent alive). The only ways the deck has to generate more than 5 storm from a Doomsday stack involve the following scenarios:

Doomsday into Doomsday + Draw Spell (Theoretically you can generate much more than 5 additional spells, but I think that 5 is the practical maximum and I've never used it for more than 4 spells.)

- This will let you reuse cards in hand and things you put in your Doomsday pile.

Doomsday into IGG (+3 Spells unless combined with something else)

- This tends to give an opponent back cards that they are best left without.
- This can be augmented by Brainstorm and Doomsday to generate many additional spells.

Doomsday involving Sensei's Divining Top (+1 Storm to +Infinite Storm)

- The standard stack gives you 6 spells, but combined with an additional top + mana (or a helm) you can generate many more spells.

Doomsday with Brainstorm (+2 spells)

- If you have two spells in your hand, you can incorporate this into the Doomsday pile math to generate up to 7 spells from your Doomsday pile.

Doomsday with Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor/Rushing River (+1 to +many storm)

- You can put these in your stack and bounce your own artifacts, replay them, and get some extra storm. This is a really desperate move.

Outside of these scenarios, your standard list is left without further ways of generating more than 5 storm from a Doomsday pile. I honestly don't know how you can expect Doomsday to be lethal when you only have 3 spells + doomsday to work from without even the possibility of something like adding Sensei's Top + KGrip into the stack (which you'd still be 4 mana short due to the cost of 5BG to Duress, KGrip, Generate 9 Storm + Tendrils).

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Originally Posted by emidln

No, there really aren't. Abstractly there might be better or worse spells you can find with Mystical Tutor, but concretely in storm combo the best spell to tutor for is the one that wins you the game. I'll accept no discussion on this point because it's a basic premise of playing combo. Failure to tutor for Dark Ritual just because you don't like doing it isn't an excuse. I do this very thing all the time. If I sound like a dick on this, I apologize.

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Umm... yeah. Obviously, if Rit wins the game, I tutor for Rit. But this is another situation. Namely: if you tutor for Rit, you don't have enough protection to go off, if you tutor for protection, you don't have enough mana (to be exact: enough BLACK mana. The amount would be sufficient) to go off. In my preboard testing of the Tempo Thresh matchup (which went much better than postboard) I've found myself tutoring for protection or bombs (Infernal/IGG/DDay) in more than 90% of the situations, because, well, the mana was just available. This is drastically different after boarding. Having spare dead cards in hand (especially the often superfluous Krosan Grip) doesn't help at all.

Needle discussion: This somehow reminds me of graveyard hate vs. earlier Iggy/FT builds. Your opponent is boarding in Yard hate, so you have two options:
a) deal with it, using bounce spells and maybe stuff like Abeyance if he has Crypt.
b) play around it, e. g. by going for Double Tendrils or by simply playing a list with Doomsday.
When it comes down to the Needle in Tempo Thresh, there are the same options, but I think the "deal with it" option is not very viable:

Your opponent is boarding in 2-3 cards, depending on his specific sideboard. These cards cost 1 mana. He might draw them or might not draw them. He doesn't specifically look for them as he does have a good chance of winning without them. The turn he plays one of them he'll usually have further mana open to play other spells.

You're boarding in 2 cards. Virtually you're boarding in 3 cards, because you're not boarding out a card that was absolutely dead in Game 1. These cards cost 3 mana. The turn you play one of them, you won't be able to do anything else. If your opponent happens to not draw Needle, they don't have any use and sit dead in your hand. You're playing 3 of them, so the probabilty of them showing up in multiples is not too small.

They set you back in the race too much. I'd rather play around Needle, and in my opinion this requires leaving Ill-Gotten Gains in the deck.


On my scenario:

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When did you Duress your opponent (i.e. did he have "Force, Force, Stifle" in hand, just "Force, Force", "Force, Stifle", or "Force and neither Force #2 nor Stifle")? If he had Stifle, it seems that since you are so low on lands there might have been the opportunity to win by Extirpate Stifle instead of Force eot and thus denying your opponent Stifle and the ability to play Force of Will. It's possible that this was not the case though, it simply seems likely given the few amount of lands you have in play. (Implying that it seems extremely possible to have seen Stifle on Fetch before the combo turn.)

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He had "Force, Force, Stifle" and a clock. I didn't have the following cards in my hand: Brainstorm, Ponder, Mystical Tutor, Orim's Chant. I did have Extirpate and the combo. Taking Force should be the right decision because there's always the possibility to include Chant/Duress in your Doomsday pile.


On another note:

When you're playing against decks featuring heavy discard, are there any specific "Pass the Turn"-stacks you frequently use?

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Hmmm... can you help me out here? I don't see how to win this even with Brainstorm instead of Meditate.

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Replacing Meditate with Brainstorm, you have these in hand: LED, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Tropical Island.

And these on the board: Swamp, Island, Plains.

It goes as follows:

Tap each land (0,WUB)
LED (1,WUB)
Dark Ritual (2,WUBBB)
Doomsday (3,WU) -> Chant, LED, Ponder, IGG, Tendrils
Brainstorm, crack LED in respose (4,WUUU) -> Hand: Chant, LED, Ponder; Library: Underground Sea, Tropical Island, IGG, Tendrils
Chant (5,UUU)
LED (6,UUU)
Ponder, crack LED in response (7,UUBBB) -> Draw IGG
IGG (8,U) -> LED, LED, Ponder
LED (9,U)
LED (10,U)
Ponder, crack both LEDs in response (11,BBBBBB) -> Draw Tendrils
Tendrils for 24 damage.

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Brainstorm, crack LED in respose

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(and discard your hand) so you have no cards to put on top of your library right?

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Needle discussion: This somehow reminds me of graveyard hate vs. earlier Iggy/FT builds. Your opponent is boarding in Yard hate, so you have two options:
a) deal with it, using bounce spells and maybe stuff like Abeyance if he has Crypt.
b) play around it, e. g. by going for Double Tendrils or by simply playing a list with Doomsday.
When it comes down to the Needle in Tempo Thresh, there are the same options, but I think the "deal with it" option is not very viable:

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I don't really know how to convince you otherwise of this outside of saying "it works for me." Also, if you leave in the second Tendrils, you could still double Tendrils. I just found that going for Double Tendrils or IGG was more awkward than going for Doomsday and I felt that I wanted the 3rd artifact removal spell over IGG.

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He had "Force, Force, Stifle" and a clock. I didn't have the following cards in my hand: Brainstorm, Ponder, Mystical Tutor, Orim's Chant. I did have Extirpate and the combo. Taking Force should be the right decision because there's always the possibility to include Chant/Duress in your Doomsday pile.

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Including Chant/Duress isn't really the issue here. The problem is that there is no way to generate lethal storm with 3 spells + Doomsday if your opp is at 19 life that doesn't require a boatload of mana. Honestly, the only "win the game" scenario here is for you to get incredibly lucky with Dark Rit, LED, Meditate break LED and maybe draw the nuts of LED, Dark, Rit, Cantrip, Doomsday.

@ Pass the turn stacks for discard

Pass the turn at 1BBBU postboard (you bring in the alternate win condition vs Extirpate). This is actually vulnerable to a whole bunch of stuff, but if you've had your hand wrecked, you can't Infernal -> IGG, and you can't get protection online, it's basically your only shot.

Meditate/Cruel Bargain
Helm of Awakening
LED
Sensei's Top
Brain Freeze/Grapeshot

This is the only pass the turn stack I've ever used against discard. I had a Sensei's Divining Top in play but only BBBUW available when I drew the Doomsday I Mystical Tutor'd for. The following one is the "obvious" one, I've just never used it:

Pass the turn at 3BBBB or 5UB:

Cruel Bargain/Meditate
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Tendrils
Tendrils

This only does 18 lifeloss. I like my other stack better.

@ The IGG stack with Brainstorm

The issue in contention was that I suggested boarding out IGG. In our scenario, replacing Meditate with Brainstorm won't help you. However, Jaiminho simply has the order wrong. He wants to play Brainstorm with LED on the table, resolve Brainstorm with UW floating, then play Chant, LED, Ponder, breaking both LED in response to Ponder for UUUBBB.

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Originally Posted by emidln

@ The IGG stack with Brainstorm

The issue in contention was that I suggested boarding out IGG. In our scenario, replacing Meditate with Brainstorm won't help you. However, Jaiminho simply has the order wrong. He wants to play Brainstorm with LED on the table, resolve Brainstorm with UW floating, then play Chant, LED, Ponder, breaking both LED in response to Ponder for UUUBBB.

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I think I fucked it up here. You can't have U in response to Brainstorm unless you play one of those lands or crack LED. Then, you won't be able to get all three cards. I'm missing 1 mana here...

After almost 4 months from the last tournament, I can go to one of 42-people last sunday. Third position such as last one tournament (In semi-final my head + deck usually are off...).

I'm also playing another version of the deck in an online tournament of 77 players (at the moment I'm in top8), so then I hope to understand the advantages/disavantages of the 2 different versions I'm playing.
I'll post my impressions...

After playing some games against Chalice of the Void, It became obvious that removing 2 Infernal Tutors for more Doomsday made the deck worse against that card. Unless you already had Top on the board, when Chalice @ 1 hits the table, you can no longer kill via Doomsday, unless you got a Draw4 in hand and are able to cast it one turn after Doomsday, for a Doomsday-go kill (maybe using IGG, if more storm is needed). Every time I saw Chalice, I was screaming for Serenity. After 2 Chalices, one at 1 and other at 2, only Rushing River could help. I don't know if it was pure bad luck, but I couldn't see any of my 3 Serenities in any of the 2 post-SB games and, when I was about to be able to cast Rushing River, I got geddon-fucked.

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

After playing some games against Chalice of the Void, It became obvious that removing 2 Infernal Tutors for more Doomsday made the deck worse against that card. Unless you already had Top on the board, when Chalice @ 1 hits the table, you can no longer kill via Doomsday, unless you got a Draw4 in hand and are able to cast it one turn after Doomsday, for a Doomsday-go kill (maybe using IGG, if more storm is needed). Every time I saw Chalice, I was screaming for Serenity. After 2 Chalices, one at 1 and other at 2, only Rushing River could help. I don't know if it was pure bad luck, but I couldn't see any of my 3 Serenities in any of the 2 post-SB games and, when I was about to be able to cast Rushing River, I got geddon-fucked.

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So far, I've found 3 Infernal Tutor and 2 Doomsday to be a good mix.

If they maindeck Chalice, it tends to be an uphill battle, since everything we use to dig for answers is stopped by Chalice @ 1. That's part of the reason why I've got 1x Lim-Duls Vault in place of 1x Mystical Tutor in my list (there's atleast 1-2 Stax players in my meta), and I've been looking for ways to fit a second in.

I've also been toying with the idea of dropping white in favor of a straight UB build, with maindeck Dark Confidant and Cabal Therapy. Confidant has good synergy with both Top and Therapy, and it would allow me to run more basic lands, which helps me since Wasteland seems to be ever-present in my meta. However, I haven't thoroughly tested this yet, so I'm not sure if it's a good idea or a bad one.

Dropping Orim's Chant and Serenity would take the deck a step backwards, I believe.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Dropping Orim's Chant and Serenity would take the deck a step backwards, I believe.

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I have builds that do it, but it largely forces you into 3-4 Doomsday. At most you can afford 1 Infernal Tutor to go with the 1 IGG to help against, non-FoW decks. There is a substantial benefit to playing Thoughtseize main in that it helps with the Counterbalance matchup (TS can nab CB while it's in the hand). Since you're not relying on IGG, you also don't have to worry about Force of Will coming back. The converse of this is that the disruption density in FT assumes that you will play about 2 disruption spells before going off. This puts 5 disruption + 4 mystical tutor at the sweet spot. If you're playing Thoughtseize, you'll want to cast it right off if it's in your opening hand. This is fine, but even if you take CB, now it will take longer to find another Thoughtseize to take their actual countermagic like Force/Counterspell/Stifle. For this reason, I'd recommend a mixed approach with Thoughtseizes and Chants (bias towards TS because it's better in more matchups). In my sb, I'd play the remainder of the Chants, KGrips, Xantid Swarms, Serenity, and the misc bounce. Remember to compensate for the additional reliance on Doomsday with Meditate in your maindeck.

@ Chalice Discussion

As far as not being able to play through Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 2 with my Doomsday list, I don't think that finding Doomsday + Meditate/Draw4, Double Tendrils, or Krosan Grip is entirely unreasonable game 1 considering any other build concedes on the spot to that kind of hate. If you're truly concerned about an abundance of Chalice decks, you'd stop complaining and maindeck Rushing River with another sideboard copy and a Rebuild. I don't believe that's necessary because my opponents rarely have early double Chalice and enough mana to put the second one at 2. Perhaps if I played with luckier players...

Anyway, your options here are:

- Get luckier and, failing that, accept your losses. It is a card game we play to escape reality for a couple hours a week.

- Play Lim-Dul's Vault to help find your answers before Chalice @ 2 comes down. I don't support this, but I could see it in a slowed down metagame.

- Play more Doomsdays and more Draw4s. While I personally don't like more than 3 Doomsday, 2 Draw4, I wouldn't argue with anyone who wanted to play with more of each.

- Maindeck hate for Chalice decks. Nobody would look twice at a list playing maindeck Rushing River or even Rebuild. It's probably not optimal in every metagame, but it's understandable in some. Plus, you have the space.

- Sideboard hate other than Serenity. I'm not forcing you to play Serenity. If you think it doesn't work, write about other options or play other things I've suggested. Rebuild, extra copies of Rushing River, Rack and Ruin, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, etc are all appropriate answers to what you were describing. Just play one of them.

- Play a different deck. I'll play my deck in any metagame. If you don't think you have the skill to adapt your deck and play it through hate, it might be better to choose something with less thought involved. I'd recommend Ichorid. Apparently memorizing sideboarding strategies and not forgetting to dredge top8s in most areas of the United States. That'd be a good deck to play while your brain recovers.

The thing is not the concern against the abundance of Chalice decks, but how not to get bad matchups only because of that card. I am playing 3 Doomsday and 2 Draw4, but I wasn't able to find both pieces on time before some other disruption, such as Trinisphere, would get them even more time, leading to finding more locks and a win condition. Anyway, Serenity has been more than enough for me post board, unless the other deck has Karmic Justice (extremely unusual), since you win the game right after casting it, even if your opponent goes for Geddon, simply because you just got 3+ for the cost of 1. I might raise Serenity from 3 to 4, if my SB can afford.

EDIT: What I just is about Geddon Stax. Other Chalice decks are usually easier, as they have like 10x less disruption.