It should be this one.
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It should be this one.
This is my present list, feel free to bash :)
// Lands
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle
// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Stifle
I hated Eternal Witness big time (double green, always got stp-ed in important matchups), Etched Oracle does her job better when it has to and (big upside) can be recurred with Academy Ruins, thus rendering Volrath's Stonghold almost unnecessary (I have recurred goyf like 2 times so far?). This improved my manabase a lot, reducing number of 2 land combinations that doesn't allow me to have UU in the 2nd turn (and I hate when that happens even more than I do hate Eternal Witness :D).
I was playtesting version with Thoughtseizes in the main, I liked it on the paper but actual performance was underwhelming (this may be because of what my local metagame looks like, lots of Burn and Zoo everywhere...) and I switched from 4 to 2 and then had to cut them all. Same is true with Tombstalkers, I didn't manage to find room for them - I had to fulfill my quotas of 2cc and 3cc spells for CB, so stalker had to go.
I don't like my sideboard at all, it just doesn't feel right... I have obvious blasts and grips, 3x crypt to hate on ichorid (and 3 is the magical number for Intuition) but those CoP and Stifles... eh.
I need some solutions for Burn, Zoo (and all other decks with Price of Progress maindeck), Belcher and Nauseam Tendrils which are matchups that in my testing doesn't favor me, and Stifles and CoPs are the only cards I managed to come up with. That's why I'm open to all suggestions...
Even if you cut Eternal Witness (which might be debatable), do not cut Stronghold. Recurring Goyfs might not be needed beatdownwise, but they certainly improve Counterbalance.
Also Shackles is such a great card and should not be cut. It wins so many matchups singlehandedly, gives you more game against Goblins (and the like).
I won a 20 man tournament yesterday with Deep6er's maindeck and the following board:
3 BEB
3 Duress (should be Thoughtseize)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Crypt
I won against Goblins (close), Dreaded Fish, Thresh, with a loss (due to mistake) against Bitterblossom/Contamination Suicide, and an ID.
Top8 I won against Aggro-Elves (real bad matchup), Ad Nauseam (2x CB/Top turn 2) and another Suicide Black.
As a special note, the final game I won even though he extirpated Goyf :tongue:
Congratulations on your finish!Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
About Volrath's Stonghold: I know all of the benefits, but problem with running colorless mana sources in this deck is this - we absolutely NEED two colored mana sources by turn two (CB, counterspell, EE) and those colorless lands (even if awesome lategame) cause mana stability problems. The less the better. Academy Ruins are impossible to cut, obviously, but Stronghold's importance is greatly diminished with the loss of Witness.
Ad Shackles: I don't know if this was aimed at me, but surely I didn't cut Shackles and neither I am planning to. The card is too important to achieve and keep late game advantage, gives us a game against Goblins g1 and provides us with an additional kill condition.
What is the Nev Disk in the SB for? Just Dragon Stompy? Otherwise I don't see point in sideboarding "worse" global effects when already playing Deeds.
Adan: ah, thanks, I must have missed it.
->Quote:
Originally Posted by Spare Parts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
Disk was also really great against Bitterblossom/Contamination. As already mentioned, permanent based decks also come to mind.
The comment about Shackles was rather aimed at someone, a few posts back, who didn't like it and considered cutting it.
Snap, I was caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
Shackles is randomly good, but I feel it as training wheels for the deck. Goblins are not widely played here, but if testing shows that it's needed in there then it'll stay.
Aside basic 3 balance/3 top I usually went for Loam/Ruins/EE or more often Loam/Stronghold/Oracle. Had drawn one of the pieces, I replaced it with Tarmogoyf or something with the other pile. Just make the pile so that you can start recurring something, or setting up counter-top.
Hi!
I'm just getting started to playing this deck and i have some questions:
1) Could somebody tell some gamestrategics against usual dtb decks? Like thresh, goblins, loam, eva green, Meathooks etc. Just how to play, play aggressive or defensive and most important what to counter.
2) Is that Eternall Witness useless?
3) What is our strong matchups and worst matchups? Dredge is quite bad but what else?
Thanks who bother to answer :)
Strategies: Play the hell out of the deck SLOWLY and consider what you can actually do. Meaning, there are so many possibilities on every turn and matchup usually that someone would spend a very long time documenting them all.
This deck is unforgiving and requires more thought than other other MTG deck I have played. However, if you play perfectly you can win against almost anything.
Eternal Witness: It depends who you ask. I think she serves a purpose besides having a CC of 3. The times I got her with intuition I am not sure if I needed her but I wouldn't cut her personally.
Best/Worst Matchups: Read through the thread. If you play perfect you have a shot at most of the field. This deck doesn't auto lose to much.
Ok, thanks :) I thinked that too today, and realize that i just need to play, play and play some more. Is there some better card in spell snares slot (2x spell snare)? I play same list that Nastaboi.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Didn't Spell Snare feel really narrow? I think the counter set of 4-4-2 FoW Daze CS was plenty, not to mention the lack of room. If I had extra room, I'd either throw in more removal (maybe an Edict effect or head the direction of Team America and run Snuff Out), discard (meh...), or another threat (Stalker?).
I suppose Snare really is meta dependent though. But if it was better than CS where you were playing, I'd say drop CS and just play Snares in place of them.
@ Spare Parts - How'd you like CoP? I've done Chills before, but I didn't like it. Do you think that more BEBs would do better until you get CB online?
What list do you play? In my list there is no dazes, so i'm just curious what my list have in dazes spot :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Spell Snare tend to perform better than Counterspell IMO, but we desperately need to maintain all the 2drops we can to increase the probability of blind CB and having the 2 mana drop in the top 3 after shuffle. I already put some thought into replacing CS with Daze, thus leaving number of 2drops intact and helping us with our early turns, where ITF is most vulnerable (my metagame is heavy heavy aggro with almost no stax nor 'still).Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
@ CoP: Still not ready to "judge", today I am going to test it against Goblins, which I am a little bit afraid of. It is, however, an absolute star against Burn and against Goyf sligh, which are otherwise bad matchups for ITF (CB + Top is usually too slow and PoP deals 6-8 damage at least).
@atog: I suggest you use one of the first lists by Deep6er and then when you feel like you have enough experience with the deck you can take it in other directions.
Holy shit I can't believe I tarded out like that. I meant 4-2, FoW and CS. I think I somehow managed to think of a mix between Dreadstill and ITF so I /fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
My list is the standard build.
Back to Spell Snare, if it works in your meta due to a high number of 2cc spells, awesome...play it. I've just never had a spell I wasn't able to answer other than when Reanimator pulls out an SSS or Red Akroma which is why I might end up trying to add an Edict or Snuff somewhere in the maindeck.
On CoP:R, although it reads :1: : totally negate a burn spell or stop a red dude, it's pretty mana intensive. CB+Top stop burn in a very similar fashion, but leaves you more vulnerable to red dudes. That's why I think BEB would do better. Just destroy it. So BEB+CBTop does the job. Add more slots if you need it. I've gone up to 6 when the meta is heavy in red. Chill was kind of a fail. So IMO CBTop > BEB > CoP > Chill for me.
I already have 4 Pyroblasts/BEB in the sb, I just like versatility rather than having 7x "the-same-card" in the sideboard :) ... it may or may not be better, it is probably only a matter of personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Today I playtested 2x Daze in the place of Counterspell and it worked out well (remember, my metagame has like "gillion bagillions of aggro decks"). If your metagame is aggro heavy as well, try it out.
In my experience - though more driven by UGw Thresh - CB-Top + 4 BEB + 4/s Counters + the ability to sword an own guy is enough to win against burnish decks. They really need a busted start to deal 20 through your defenses fast enough.
I was also thinking about Daze <> Counterspell, as Daze helps the deck going to where it wants to be - the mid- and late-game. On the other hand this is where Counterspell really shines and where CB-Top sometimes won't do the job. I am still biased though, as the deck has solutions to anything that might slip through later in the game. By the way, this topic highlights that this deck really needs to be played very tight and answers / solution / resources need to be planned thoroughly (read: much more in comparison to some other decks).
Daze absolutely does not help you to reach lategame as it sets you back a whole turn in land drops. All you ever want to do is play lands every turn until you reach a critical mass and somehow survive until then. Using Daze in the very deck is Time Walking your opponent.
IMO daze must be played 4x or none. Yes, you can pitch it to FoW but late game that is too often dead card. It shines at beginning of game but then again you want to play full set. I think i try Spell Snares in counterspell slot, cause in my meta i see Eva Green, Goblins, Pox and Thresh. So all those deck run enought 2-drops to run Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spare Parts
I have just returned from a small Legacy tournament where i grabbed first price (4 Sinkholes) with ITF. The tournament was small (only 13 players) but it wont stop me from providing you with a brief tournament report:
1st round: ANT. 1st game I kept hand with 2 StP, goyf and Daze (I didn't know what I am up against), he Duressed me and went off. 2nd game I managed to assemble CB+Top and win, 3rd game I was lucky with blind CB (I had a FoW in hand, but my opp told me later that it wouldn't be enough) and proceeded to win after tutoring Top next turn.
2:1, 1-0-0
2nd round: Armageddon Stax. 1st game I got badly screwed by Armageddon, but afterwards I had enough turns to topdeck 3 mana sources and drop Deed. I blew up his Chalice @1 and @2 (I had 3 StP a 2 Brainstom in hand by that time) along with the rest of his permanents and two 6/7 goyfs finished the job. 2nd game he didn't show much resistance to my disruption, even though Suppresson Fields were giving me headaches.
2:0, 2-0-0
3rd round: Goyf Stompy variant with white splash for Nacatl. My opponent was playing PoP and even a few Vexing Shushers in the main, but I got lucky - both games he had to mulligan (though 1st game we both went to 5) and he had no 1st turn drops, I drew enough StP to contain his creatures and assembled lock.
2:0, 3-0-0
4th round: BG Rock. I was backpedalling the whole 1st game but didn't manage to slow him down enough. He drew 3 Wastelands and his Troll Ascetics finished work on my life total (Ascetic is surprisingly hard to answer - if his owner doesn't tap out, I have no way how to actually kill him). G2 I won after a long war of attrition (he had Genesis in gy, but finally I managed to CB+top handle it). 3rd game he drew "the nuts" and I drew like ... well.. lands. 8 lands to 4 spells to be exact, one of them being LftL. And got Thoughtseized 1st turn.
1:2, 3-1-0
5th round: I was paired down against 6points opp, and I managed to talk him into a draw.
3-1-1
Top4:
Goyf stompy I already played against, I managed to win in similar manner to the basic portion of the tournament (and I was quite lucky to draw both Spell Snares for his two PoP in the 2nd game).
Finals: Monoblack aggro (Sinkholes, Duress, Hymn, Dark Ritual - the usual suspects). We split the prizes and went home (:
My decklist (I posted it just a page back, but oh well I know you are lazy):
// Lands
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Windswept Heath
//\\
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle
//\\
// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Daze
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Stifle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
And my comments on unusual card choices: I absolutely did not miss Eternal Witness. Not yet sure about Stronghold, but I like having minimum of colorless lands screwing up my draws. 2 Daze were great, and I like it a lot more than CS in this slot. A lot of people will disagree, but I played it and I was happy with it every time I drew it. And late game? Well, that's why we have SDT in the deck...
Sideboard: I didn't play any of the standard GY hate because I knew there won't be any Ichorid (Relic was as one-of against slower graveyard recursions - Genesis, Crucible, ...) Pithing Needle I felt was totally unneccesary, even more because we are playing 5 sweepers (and you can't switch off opponent's Top).
CoP:Red worked quite well, but I may switch back to 6-7 blasts - it's easier to play with, doesn't tie your mana and helps against blood moon effects.