TES is just harder to play and more rewarding. This deck fails without ANT, TES has more options.
I think this decks manabase is better, but TES makes up for this with brutal power.
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TES is just harder to play and more rewarding. This deck fails without ANT, TES has more options.
I think this decks manabase is better, but TES makes up for this with brutal power.
You sound like you're fucking terrible with combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Anyway, the skill level required to play the 14-16land fetchland-based Tendrils decks and rainbowland-based Tendrils decks is similar. The biggest decisions you'll face are cantrip decisions followed by the question of when to go off. There are other decisions (tutor targets, sideboard decisions are huge, when to go for Ad Nauseam vs another win condition like IGG, interaction questions with stuff like Duress, etc) but the majority of your time will be spent pondering Ponders and trying to figure out when is the appropriate time to combo off (weighing your hand and known information vs what you know of your opponent's hand, board, deck, and all the math/intuition behind these).
TES doesn't actually have more options than ANT. TES has:
Natural (Protection/Cantrips/Enemy-Low Life Kills)
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
Diminishing Returns
ETW
ANT has:
Natural
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
(Doomsday)
(ETW)
The last two depend highly on what build of ANT you play. It seems dutch players are content moving into red for ETW as an answer to CB strategies. The guys on the storm boards (myself included) favor Ad Nauseam and Doomsday paired with a 4-5c manabase.
Very few lists see play without both Ad Nauseam and Ill-Gotten Gains. It's easy to include IGG in any LED list with Infernal Tutor (a common tutor for Ad Nauseam) and it solves issues related to low-life total combo turns. If you don't have Ad Nauseam, it's very easy to build storm with Infernal Tutor into Ill-Gotten Gains (it only costs 2 more mana than winning with Ad Nauseam (with 0 mana floating) anyway).
The variants of ANT packing Sensei's Divining Tops are additionally far more brutal on a player of the course of a tournament than TES. These include lists like jegger's without Doomsday and lists like Pulp_fiction's or mine with Doomsday. All of the cantrips, plus Doomsday, with as many or more tutors, and the added complication of properly abusing fetchlands.
The streamlined ANT lists, such as those favored by mateml, have the same consistency AND average speed of TES. When you compare the lists, you can see why: the differences are that TES plays 3 fewer lands that are rainbow instead of in a fetch/dual config (on average), Cabal Rituals, and fewer Mystical tutors while making that up with an additional Chrome Mox (sometimes), a set of Rite of Flames, and Burning Wishes. Total changes (ignoring the first 11 lands which are a fetch<->rainbow swap):
-3 Land
-4 Cabal Rit
-2 Mystical Tutor
+1 Chrome Mox
+4 Burning Wish
+4 Rite of Flame
The changes from some of the more hybridized lists like NLS are similar replacing some Infernal Tutors and Rite of Flames from TES with Mystical Tutors and Cabal Rituals).
Burning Wish does not significantly increase average goldfish speed compared to Mystical Tutor. This has nothing to do with a "card disadvantage tutor" but instead with the major limiting factors of initial mana sources and ritual effects. Neither TES nor ANT can reliably have enough mana to combo turn 1 without first casting Brainstorm or Ponder (at which point they probably have to pass where their chances increase dramatically). This means the Mystical Tutor being played on the end step or upkeep will still contribute to the turn two win (roughly the average in a goldfish).
I have no idea where you come up with this idea that TES will be faster than a stock ANT list in a goldfish (or against disruption). The decks are extremely close with similar odds in just about all facets of the game. The small percentage of the time that TES might be faster due to the acceleration swap of Rite of Flame for Cabal Ritual won't likely show in any given 1000 goldfish hands.
In fact, the only way to make either deck noticeably faster is to add in Simian Spirit Guides for the IMS boost, which most pilots are not willing to do due to a slightly increased average CMC. Your limiting point in speed here is because the lists have replaced acceleration with cantrips for consistency. Adding Rite of Flames to ANT or Cabal Rituals to TES will have similar effects (although less noticeable with your ability to combo turn 1 and your average CMC) but penalize either your consistency (replacing cantrips/tutors) or your non-goldfish speed (replacing protection).
Very well said. We don't need another thread about TES vs FT! Both decks have their merits. While I don't think TES is any faster than a regular 7-8 ritual ANT list some will argue different. TES is often viewed as more versatile since it has Burning Wish but, I have been playing ANT/DDFT for a very long time and haven't wanted Burning Wish. Out of the ridiculous number of tournament matches I have played combo in I have only had Tendrils Extirpated 1 time.
I don't want to argue which is more skill testing because it all depends on your grasp of combo. Personally I think Doomsday is the most skill testing combo card due to the fact it can be adapted to deal with basically anything, you just have to do the math. BUT I have made some pretty insane plays with TES in a tournament setting as well so both decks really have the ability to rack your brain hard.
Too me this is what it all comes down to, I don't want to play a combo deck without Sensei's Divining Top. It helps so much with consistency and mulligans that its ridiculous. I have mulled to 4 and opened up Top/land, hit nothing with top 3, fetched, and won on turn 4. Top just adds SO much to the deck that everytime I sleeve up TES to take it to a tournament I always end up taking it apart cause I don't want to miss out on having access to Top. I feel it adds a whole nother realm of consistency to combo decks and allows you to do some insanely broken things.
Played a single elimination tourney on MWS for a swedish site.
Not very long, but I have lost all games vs. blue, i don't know if it's me :)
I tried emidln's list from his blog with doomsday, not that I know how to play DD but anyways.
Vs Merfolk.
Game 1. I keep a hand of duress and stuff that will accel me to AdN turn 2.
I duress turn 1 and take daze as the other stuff is just vial and water creatures that don't do anything.
He draws and plays cursecatcher that I didn't see from duress, well, slows me down 1 turn, i draw and go as i need mana. He draws and attacks and says go.
Next turn i draw my mana as I have 1 to spare now when i play AdN, I go for it, he FoWs, must've been his second draw after cursecatcher.... ok, gratz.
Game 2.
We both mull, I start with swarm, he FoWs it, later I set up via top and duress an AdN with 16 life, I win.
Game 3. I mull
He starts with island.
Me swarm, he daze.
He land, go.
Me swarm, he FoW.
Then i draw into 2 mystical tutor and have:
2 mystical, chrome mox, IGG, doomsday, petal on hand and 2 land in play(bayou, volcanic island). I just don't know what to do here...
I have time to mystical 2 end steps and survive but then i have to win and it cant be via AdN
and ofcourse I fuck up, I could set up IGG, but he has FoW in GY so... not good, and I don't have time or mana to find silence and then go. So i die.
Should i DD for something here?
Finding Dark Rit and then Brainstorm lets you build BS/LED/LED/Ponder/Tendrils which wins for BBB (Doomsday) + UU. You could also play Chrome Mox imprinting IGG while finding Dark Rit+BS/Ponder and Doomsday for Rit/Med/Rit/Rit/Tendrils. Either leaves you vulnerable to Daze/Cursecatcher as well as Force of Will/Stifle though. Your best option is to probably Mystical into Brainstorm then try to fix your hand here.
I would also have immediately cast the first Mystical Tutor to find Brainstorm.
I've been testing this list recently:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalded Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1-2 Deathmark
SB: 0-1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
I had a couple questions, I know this is a bit old as a list, but still. First, 61 cards main deck? That seems wrong. Also could you just sketch out how you sideboard for a couple of the big matchups? Lastly, how good is the one of Krosan Grip main...is it worth making your mana a little worse in G1 as opposed to siding both tropicals and playing swamp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosedog
Hi,
I'm working on a list, that includes all the 0-mana artifact creatures. They can block the first damage dealt by opposing creatures so we can draw enough cards with Ad Nauseam. They also give us more stormcount in the winning turn.
The problem is that you mostly need 2 cards to use the synergies, e.g. Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent, but when you have it, these cards are very strong.
As I tested the list a little bit (10 games so far) and I realized that you need at least one of the 8 Tutors, Ad Nauseam itself, the Cunning Wish or a very good hand an a Brainstorm in your opponing hand to find Ad Nauseam quick enough. Otherwise I took a mulligan, because without any option finding Ad Nauseam you will loose the game, it won't come from the top.
I didn't miss Orim's Chant or Silence, the protection consisting of Cabal Therapy (very strong in most match-ups, you know which card srews you up) and Pact of Negation in combination with the Cunning Wish to fetch different answers, seems to be good enought to me. Staying UB is also a advantage against color-screw and wastelands.
here is the list:
Main:
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cunning Wish
//46
Lands:
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
//14
Side:
4 Dark Confidant (anti-control package)
4 Hypnotic Specter (anti-control package)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
//15
What are your suggestions?
I apologize for the bluntness of this but that list is awful. Playing the tall men has always added a great deal of inconsistencies to the deck and gives you so many dead draws that its insane. I used to play SI and I know how awful they are, and I only ran 8! Where is LED ... IT?? If you built this for budget reasons I totally understand. But currently, if you want to play just regular ANT without Doomsday there is no reason at all to not play this:
4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Plains
The SB is clearly all meta dependent but this is one of the most consistent ANT lists you will see. I don't know why everyone is afraid of LED and IT, I guess I have just been playing combo to long ... but there is not a single reason to NOT run it. Especially now that we have access to 8 chants + Xantid Swarm in the SB! Makes everything that much better. And the IGG loop gives you so many wins as does going all in on IT and fetching AdN. Its really insane, plus Cabal Ritual always adds mana, where as Culling can and will sit in your hand. IT and LED is way to powerful to not play in combo just based off of how many free (guarnteed) wins it gives you.
Now, if this is for budget reasons, meaning no duals, Chants, LEDs I would saw cut the tall men down to 8, just play Walker and Sphere, add in 2x Ponder and 2x Sensei's Divining Top and then go -1 Diabolic Intent and +1 Tendrils of Agony. That should make the list decent but you are still going to have a ridiculous amount of dead draws and hand destruction will just rip a deck like this so shreds. SI and Belcher taught me many lessons on what to not play when it comes to combo! If this deck is not for budget reasons, put the list above together.
Also, lets please ignore the LED vs non-LED debate because it is getting old. If anyone really wants do debate this we should really start seperate threads for the decks.
I don't write here from a while, because I do only a tournament this year in May with my pet deck.
Last sunday I returned to play this deck at a medium event of 135 players and I've finished 2°. I know here nobody plays without DD, but I post anyway the list I've used:
4 delta
4 strand
1 scalding tarn
2 island
1 plains
1 usea
1 scrubland
1 tundra
4 LED
4 petal
2 chrome
1 diamond
4 ritual
4 cabal
4 mystical
3 IT
1 IGG
1 AN
1 ToA
1 wipe away
4 orim
2 silence
2 sensei
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
SIDE
2 volcanic island
4 pyroblast
1 pyroclasm
1 chain of vapor
2 hurkyl
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river
1 extirpate
1 slaughter pact
Some choices were meta call (15° land, mox diamond and additional orims were for the tempo meta). The average CC is 1,18 so AN is very efficent although with 6 orims more often than normal I combo with IGG.
The pairings I founded:
dredge (with unmask in SB) 2-0
zoo (with 3 canonist, 3 teeg, reb in SB) 2-0
landstill (counters + 4 CB & 4 meddling in SB) 2-0
merfolk (no denial) 2-0
merfolk (denial) 2-1
proBant (counter, CB) 2-1
reanimator - tie
goblin - tie
TOP8
goblin 2-0
proBant (the same of swiss) 2-0
canadian (classic list without Goose + Clique & Lavamancer) 0-2
The deck is nice and it's a good tier2.
How do you SBī the different bouncespells?
I'm playing a list with 6 chants and DD, with an average cmc of 1,24, almost the same as yours (you get, on average, one card more for every 20 flipped cards or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
I'm particularly interested in the Pyroblast plan, that I've not yet tested in such a deck. I guess it's your plan both against counterdecks and CB?
I'm actually playing green for a sb like:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
*SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
*SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
*SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
*SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 1 [B] Bayou
SB: 1 [TE] Plains (3)
I'm not sure about the * slots. Is the Pyroblast plan working well? Do you suggest me trying it in place of the green splash?
What do you side in/out against counterbalace? And what against tempo decks (UGr, Merfolk)?
Apparently everyone is writing tournament reports so I will just give a quick summary of what happened and discuss the blue matches in detail a little later on. Tonight I made it to a top 4 split at my local tournament out of 31 people, went 4-1-1 and played the following:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Chrome Mox
1x Silence
1x Ponder
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
This was a semi-experimental list and I did not like it. 4x Infernal Tutor feels like too many and I was really missing the extra Ponder. It really felt like I was playing ANT all night, I didn't win a single game with Doomsday and never really had the capabilities too. The deck was acting funny but still performing at an incredible level, I kept drawing useless 1-ofs all night rather than good cards but everything eventually worked out. Here is a summary of what I played against:
Round 1: Brassman Blue
1-2
I won the first then proceded to lose to triple CB, double Force in the second, and lost the third after a mull to 5 and drawing nothing.
Round 2: Zoo
2-1
Game 1 I just mulled to 5 and drew garbage, good times. Game 2 I fought through turn 2 Null Rod and turn 3 Pillar. And game 3, won through a Pillar after drawing a sick amount of 1-ofs.
Round 3: Enchantress
2-0
I felt bad about this matchup, I timewalk him with Chant and easily IGG Loop out on turn 3. Same thing in the second game except I win with AdN on turn 2.
Round 4: 4C CB Thresh (Loxodon Baileyarch)
2-0
Game 1 was beautiful, turn 2 Silence right into IGG Loop. Game 2 I just drew too many threats and he draws triple Force. After he has exhausted all his resources I have LED, LED, IT, Petal, Ritual .... GG.
Round 5: ID with R/W Goblins
Top 8
Round 6: Recruiter Aluren (ChokeSeemsGood)
Game 1 I keep a semi-iffy hand and proceed to Brainstorm into land, land, Petal, then draw lands and petals to my heart's content and IGG gets Mesmeric Fiended. Game 2 I just ravaged him in the face on turn 2 or 3 with IGG loop.
g3: This was a tough game and it really goes to show how fucking good this deck is. I keep an amazing hand and he Thoughtseizes me and my hand is the following: Rit, CRit, Brainstorm, LED, LED, Chant, Tropical Island. He takes Brainstorm and passes. I draw into a Top and play a single LED because I know he plays Cabal Therapy and am not going to get 2-1ed. I Play Top and pass the turn. He plays Thoughtseize, taking Dark Ritual and a Brainstorm. Upkeep I activate Top and it reveals Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Chain of Vapor. I draw Chrome Mox and leave IT on the top. Play my other LED and Chrome Mox imprinting CRit. Blow up both LEDs for BBBBBB and activate Top to draw IT into the win! I got double Thoughtseized and still won on turn 2 ... just that good.
Overall I did not like this particular configuration but I was REALLY feeling the 3rd Cabal Ritual. I think 6x Protection spells is optimal as is 2x Ponder and 3x Infernal Tutor in the main. This list felt a little too inconsistent and I had to mulligan a lot more than I normally do. This is what I will play in the future and what I would consider a more than optimal list for the DDFT Hybrid:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
Even though the changes may seem minor the second list is a lot more consistent and just as fast! If only I could figure out what to cut so I can put in the 3rd Cabal Ritual! As it is this list is spectacular but I just wish I could figure out how to get that 3rd CRit in! It is driving me nuts! Although I do feel the best option is to just leave it alone as I think it has been tweaked as much as it possibly can be!
Thatīs why i think that Thoughtseize is worse than Duress against ANT. He played 2 Thoughtseize, which means he lost 4 life. Those 4 life are reducing the storm count for the ANT player by 2. Both spells he took from you would have been also Duress targets. And i also think that drawing into the right cards that quickly was quite lucky, but well luck on a consistent basis is skill, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I'm actually playing your exact suggested list with -1 Bayou +1 Tundra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
For the SB, it's a different thing (it's posted up in this page).
How is swarm doing it for you? Seems like a bit redundant with the 6 chants effects already on board, isn't it? When do you side it in, and what do you take out?
My mainboard is the same as yours, except for -1 Grip +1 Ponder. I don't really miss the 3th Cabal Rit too much really. I'm considering playing it in the sideboard as a way to speed up the deck a little against aggro. C Rit is also pretty strong against control, and you probably could board out any other accel for it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Of course, my land base is a little different. I play:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub
1 Island
1 Plains
I hate the scrubland though, and I'm probably cutting it for a 9th fetchland (U/R or U/G, doesn't really matter anyway (It's probably better to cut a delta for another one of those)).
As for your green splash, you have Grip to fight CB. Why do you think this plan is better than splash red for Pyroblast? I haven't gotten around to testing either option properly so far. Also, why do you play Disenchant over Serenity?
Why does he play Disenchant over another K-grip and Cabal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
@flrn: After a mull to 5 twice and quite a few mulligans to 6 throughout the day and losing to hideous draws twice I think a little luck is deserved on occassion, but you also need to know how to play the cards the deck is giving you as it isn't always going to be as easy as double LED + IT.
@GreenOne: I absolutely LOVE the Swarm! Especially when your opponent keeps in terrible cards like Swords just to answer a 2x of or wastes an EE to get rid of it! The redundancy is key, 9 Chant effects! Swarm OWNS the combo mirror and the Merfolk matchup. It is mainly in there for Merfolk because all you have to do is land Swarm and you don't have to worry about anything else since they don't have any kind of real answer to the card which is just great! It also shines in the thresh matchups as well, in particular against Canadian where they waste their burn spells on it rather than you life points, and if they don't have an answer then most likely they will be losing pretty soon!
I side in 2x Swarm against Thresh and Landstill and I bring in 3x in the Merfolk matchup, this is really where he shines, if you don't have a lot of matchups against the fishies I would only run 2. SB varies a little by matchup but this is what I usually do against Merfolk:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -1 Petal and then +3 Swarm +2 DD.
I SB the same against non-CB Blue control except keep in the IT and only board in 2x Swarm.
Against CB Thresh I board like this:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Petal and +2 KGrip, +2 DD, +2 Swarm.
@Bahamuth: I would never cut a Scrubland because I can't think of a situation where I would want 2 Tundras in play rather than Tundra and Scrubland thus having access to black mana and WW. The reason being is I like having access to U/W/B and being able to pay the kicker cost on Orim's Chant if need be.
Green is a LOT better because you don't have to have the answer in your hand when the CB is played. Using the blast plan you HAVE to have an answer in hand to deal with CB otherwise you will barely ever remove it and will NEVER remove it if Top is in play. KGrip is the best answer for CB IMOP, plus you can tutor for it in response and the kill it later on when you are ready to combo off. It is just nice not having to rely on a blast being in my hand when CB is played and then effectively having no way to remove it if I didn't start the game with a blast, and even then, if you are on the draw your blast can still be Dazed!
@lorddotm and Bahamuth: Disenchant is all meta dependent. I encounter every imagineable hate card in my meta because it is so varied and prefer Disenchant because it has an immediate effect and I can tutor for it. I hate Serenity since I have no way to find it (aside from Top and cantrips) and in the matchups where Serenity is good I have had it Oblivion Ringed and KGripped one to many times. Disenchant will always kill something and I can play it as a suprise instant and have the ability to tutor for it.
I also play Disenchant over additional KGrip because of Ad Nauseam. Against aggro decks I will leave in AdN and don't want to stock the deck full of 3 CC disenchants, so I just cut chants and put in Disenchants and bounce for the hate cards and the lower the casting cost the better! I also play a single Naturalize in case I have to tutor up a protection spell and maybe I only have access to either W or G, just nice to have different options available because you never know what kind of jacked up situations you will have to get yourself out of.
Hey everyone,
This will be quite noobish, so please, temper your anger ;) Thanks in advance!
I've been looking for decent Legacy deck for a while, tried to play Counterbalance-Top decks, but they didnt fit in my taste. Finally I got my very own ANT deck done, from the 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen III tournament. I've did some goldfishing with it and realized I dont really know how to play that one (I was only able to launch off the combo once, with very obvious cards combination for many, many goldfish tests). I was looking this thread and I saw it lacking good deck introduction, for people that yet dont know how to pilot it.
I'd like to read some information, how to play Doomsday, what the hell is 'IGG loop', how to correctly resolve Lion's Eye Diamond, how to play with blue matchups, how to sideboard, what to mulligan and what to not, and so on. The deck is very complex, that while reading the decklists is fun and enjoyable, it doesent help a lot, especially for people new to ANT like me. Of course, I absolutely understand the amount and variety of things involved in correct play with the ANT and that there is no play-it-like-that-to-win-every-time checklist of golden rules.
Thanks for any clues and patience :)
You make Xantid Swarm sounds a little better than it is in my opinion. You seem to state it's a good thing opponents will burn/StP Swarms, but that's not really always the case. If a Tempo Thresh player burns off a Swarm, he essentially just countered your protection with a spell that wouldn't have mattered if Swarm would've been a Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Thank you for posting your sideboard plans. Why exactly do you consider it to be good to board out Ad Nauseam? Why is a more Doomsday-oriented plan better in these matchups?
I think you know too that kicked Chant almost never happens. I don't really think that should be an argument here. I don't see much other reason to have WW in play. Situations where you hold 2 Chant and you absolutely need to cast them both on the same turn (and where you don't have a Petal and Tundra + Sea) are also very unlikely, because you're generally very Daze-vulnerable when you cast the second. I don't see enough reason to need more than 1 white source on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Scrubland gave me lots of mulligans in the past. You can't keep hands with Scrub as only land and some blue cantrips/Mystical Tutor. I think it's better off as a 9th fetchland.
Okay, you summed up a whole lot of reasons to run Grip. I can give you some advantages of Blast too. It's much better when you still run AdN for example, but you seem to board it out, so I guess that's not really relevant to you. Also, Blast doubles as protection when you also have a Chant, which is pretty likely. It's not that unlikely that you can resolve a Blast through CB. CB doesn't have CB + Top that often early in the game anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
With the board plan you posted, what are your results vs. CB? How would you estimate your win%? Be realistic please.
I'll give you some general tips on how this deck works.Quote:
Originally Posted by spankme
Basically, this deck always wins by first making mana, then playing some kind of tutor to find one of your win conditions, and then using it to produce a lethal Tendrills. I'll go over the options here (The B's represent the mana in your mana pool):
1) Ad Nauseam. This is the easiest option you have. If you're a starting combo player, I suggest you start off with a list that only has AdN and IGG.
Basically, you resolve Ad Nauseam, draw a shitload of cards, play all Petals, Moxes, LEDs, Rituals you found, Tutor up your Tendrills with Infernal Tutor or Mystical Tutor + cantrip, and play it.
One way to go would for example be:
Tap land for Dark Ritual (BBB), Sac Petal for B (BBBB), cast LED, cast Infernal Tutor (BB) saccing LED in response for BBB (BBBBB). You now search for AdN and win from there.
Or you could go:
End of Turn, Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam. Draw it in your own turn. Cast Dark Ritual twice (BBBBB) and cast Ad Nauseam, winning from there.
Infernal Tutor and LED make a strong combination in this deck. The idea is that you make some mana by playing some Rituals, then play a LED, and then play Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response. This results in your hand being empty with 3 more mana available, and a Hellbended Infernal Tutor. This way, LED makes your Infernal Tutor into a Demonic Tutor, and it gives you 3 more mana to play with.
2) IGG: Ill-gotten Gains is another engine you can use to win the game. It's safer than Ad Nauseam, because you don't have the risk of killing yourself in the process, but it loses to graveyard hate and to your opponent having a counter in his graveyard. Here's an example of an IGG-loop:
Tap land, cast Dark Ritual (BBB). Cast threshed Cabal Ritual (BBBBBB) cast LED, cast Petal, cast Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response (BBBBBBB). You grab Ill-gotten Gains, and cast it (BBB). You return Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor. Play Dark Ritual (BBBBB), play LED, cast Infernal Tutor saccing LED in response (BBBBBB) and grab Tendrills for 20 damage.
Notice I played a Petal at the start to make storm. Instead, you could've searched for a new Infernal Tutor at the end with the Tutor you returned with IGG. With the new Tutor, you still have enough mana to search for a Tendrills, but you've increased your storm by one.
Also notice that, if you haven't resolved a Chant first, your opponent can get back the counters he already used with your IGG, and use them to counter your Infernal Tutor. Therefore, IGG should only be used against blue decks when you either resolved a Chant, or the opponent has no counters in his graveyard.
3) Doomsday. Doomsday is the hardest engine of the 3. It requires you to build a pile of 5 cards that win you the game. As you might've noticed, Doomsday has no internal option of actually getting to these cards. For that reason, you need another card (Top, Brainstorm or Ponder (or perhaps Infernal Tutor)) to reach the cards. Let's say you have a Top in play.
Cast Dark Ritual(BBB), cast Lotus Petal, cast LED. Now cast Doomsday, making your deck into:
Meditate
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrills.
Now, we had a Top in play, so we tap the Top, and sac LED in respose for blue. We draw Meditate and cast it. You will draw into Top (you put it on top of your library) Petal LED LED. Now cast Petal, sac it for mana and use that to cast your Top, cast LED LED. Now tap Top, saccing both LEDs in response and draw your Tendrills, which you can cast with the mana from LED.
There are tons of different piles to use for Doomsday. Some only work if you have some more cards in your hand, of only if you have a Brainstorm or specific amounts of mana left in your pool. Here is a link to Cheeseburger's and emidln's page with Doomsday piles: http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9
I hope this helps. There's much more to be said about how to play this deck, but I feel I've typed enough for a while.
@Bahamuth: I love the Swarm, always have and unless they print a better creature that chants without ever even hitting the opponent I will keep playing it. Here is what is so great about Swarm, sometimes I won't even board him in, instead I will put in EtW or something like that and because my opponents at the card shop I play at know I only play combo they expect Xantid and may keep in 4 Swords. That is just 4 more dead draws they have in their deck. And when playing just 2x Swarm, they are running 3-4 answers for it and I will take those odds anyday.
I totally understand not liking the Swarm, it is all preference. I used to hate the card as well, but oftentimes the threat of Xantid is enough for your opponent to unnecessarily play cards to answer it. Xantid also draws out Force of Will like a boss! Plus I have additional protection spells in the deck! I can see where you are coming from though, I hate Serenity with a passion but others will swear by it, perhaps you had bad experiences/luck with the card in the past.
I board out Ad Nauseam because it is garbage in the blue matchup IMOP. Especially because I have to board out Chrome Mox. I used to take out Ponders and go down to 1x Cabal Ritual but I feel this is a terrible mistake. Doomsday allows me to take my time and setup and Ad Nauseam forces me to have high life points where as you only need 2 for Doomsday! The card is just great against blue and the 4x blast 4x chant DDFT builds fuck CB thresh up hard, but they suffer from serious speed issues in the aggro matchups. DD is just a lot better because it allows you to sculpt your hand and preiodically test defenses while your life is being whitted away by Goyf and Ad Nauseam just becomes useless after turns 4-6.
I play kicked chant maybe 1/7-10 aggro matchups I encounter and I do think it is relevant, especially if you have the AdN setup for next turn. In general it is not a common play, I will agree there, but the kicker is relevant. Either way, play whatever manabase you feel comfortable with, there is no correct manabase with the lists, because we will all argue whatever works for us is better; but if you almost never lose games due to mana issues and feel confident playing against wasteland and the occassional Moon effect then thats the right manabase!
I never much kept track of my matchups after I write a tournament report, but in general I am roughly 50-50 lifetime VS CB with combo. With DDFT (the Hybrid list posted above morphs into this after SB) I am about 55/60% against them. It is only CB though that gives these lists a hard time, I don't think I have ever lost a matchup to Landstill with the Hybrid list or DDFT, or TES for that matter.
I can't ever get behind the blast plan, and if they don't have Top then they will BS in response and put a 1 drop on top or Force your blast and proceed to lock you out of the game. Very rarely will a 1 CC spell remove CB. Krosan Grip is the best answer. Now, if you want to play blast, chant, and grips ... even better! I found it to be complete overkill and top activations reveal a little more useless spells than it should but the matchup is damn good! The blast plan just puts more of an emphasis on speed (much like AdN) and opening hand. Grip is all about setup and timing and doesn't have to be in the opening hand to remove CB which is crucial IMOP when deciding which is better at dealing with that fucking enchantment! They both have their merits but if I had to choose one over the other I will take Grip everytime.
@spankme: Stay as far away from Doomsday as you can. Play regluar ANT lists with IT, LED, and IGG. Probably the best way to learn storm combo. If you have questions about how to play a hand or think you can win but don't know how post a scenario and we will help you out. Best way to learn though is goldfishing over and over and over again.
Had a rough time in my CB match this weekend. I've never beaten it in tournament play with storm combo. I can get 1 game and that seems about it. I just need to play it a lot more that's for sure. I haven't really had trouble against Fae or Canadian.
Game 1 he didn't drop Balance so I just Chanted into the Igg loop.
Game 2 I Slaughter Pact away a Teeg but he and Goyf had beaten me down to low life so I had to Ad Naus at about 11 through a CB at 1. Didn't get there.
Game 3 I Grip two CBs but a Crypt and a Goyf beating me down forced me to Ad Naus at even lower life(lol) which of course didn't work out.
Doomsday would have helped me out tremendously in that round.
I also think I kept subpar hands esp Game 3 but I opened up a Grip and 3 lands so I kept. Thought I could sculpt my hand until I Grip and win the following turn. Not so much.
I had a good lol moment when I Duress my WW opponent in game 2 and he's holding Mindbreak Trap. Anyone run into that guy yet?
Yep, I faced Ugw Balance Thresh that weekend.
I won game 1 through Balance/Top because of "hardcast"(without rituals) AN EoT.
But he brought in 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Minbreak Traps in Addition to Snare,Clique,FoW already beeing Maindeck. He really was afraid of combo o0
Long story short: Chant->FoW->Pyroblast->V.Clique->(he was down to 2 cards)->D.Ritual->D.Ritual->MindbreakTrap :(
I wouldīve won that game later on but I exiled both rituals and not only one so I failed during Igg Loop some turns later. But I still got a 1-1-1 out of it :D
How do you guys feel about Bant Aggro? Itīs pretty common over here and I donīt feel very comfortable playing against it.
They have the same Manadenial as TT but 3 additional V.Cliques plus Gaddocks out of the SB. Against TT, you can usually relax and sculpt your hand until itīs gg, but Bant applies much more pressure. :/
I won that match but only because I bluffed a FTK in game 3 :D
I finished 4-1-1 loosing a match to Landstill packing Balance MD +4 Mages +3 Extirpates +Chant for g2/g3 because he blindly revealed cc1 two times in a row, one of them beeing Top :(
@NQN: What does your meta generally look like? If it is usually a lot of blue (more than 60% of your matchups) then I would advise a different combo deck. Just describe what kinds of decks you usually play against and there are quite a few combo lists you can look into as long as you are comfortable playing Doomsday. But there are numerous different builds for DDFT and it greatly depends on your meta, also, post a list for reference and how the deck usually performs in your meta.
Well, first of all I have to say that I havenīt played Combo since ~1,5 years.
I played TES back then when it was cool (read: AN wasnīt printed) and then stopped it for blue control.
Iīm currently trying out different approaches to find one that I feel comfortable with. I started with a Next Level Storm build and went 4-2 loosing twice to ANT.
Then I picked up ANT myself and played against 3 blue decks and 3 nonblue decks which is kinda fair imho.
What I can say for sure is that I rarely face Counterbalance (In 1,5 years with Landstill maybe 10 times...) so I think a faster list would be better. Im not sure whatīs wrong with me but when I play a list with DD I always fizzle with Ad Nauseam since I never reveal any rituals but lots of buisness :/
I really liked the Uwb +r list since it was fast but still had lots of ways to fight through hate. Actually, Iīd like to first play without Doomsday until I got enough practice to play decks I assume to be slower.
Another question that bothers me: What do you think about Duress? In testing, I found it terrible. If I played it early, it didnīt really mattered since they always could refill their hand within 1-2 turns. If I tried to protect Chant with it while going off the same turn, I often got pwned by Brainstorm+Top. Itīs also bad against Tempo Decks since they usually have only 1 force but plenty of other disruption (Spell Snare,Stifle)...
I tend to play 6 Chants instead of Duress, you?
Last Question: How important are basiclands? While we have only a few balance players, we have lots of merrows and other decks packing wasteland so I feel like I want at least 2 basics. Is that a wrong way to look at it(remember, Iīve only played LS for a long time^^)
Thanks in advance :)
I can think of once since the beginning of the summer that I've fizzled with Ad Nauseam at a decent life total (above 12). It's possible to fizzle, but the DD lists providing SDT and Mystical Tutor make it even easier to win post-AdN than those without Doomsday. In NLS or the UBw hybrids, you're down 1-2 Cabal Rituals, and maybe 1 Chrome Mox (both decks run 4 Rit, 2-3 CRit, 4 Petal, 2 CMox, 4 LED) from ANT's 3-4 Cabal Rit and 2-3 Chrome Mox. Cabal Ritual is significantly worse in straight AdN builds unless you hit Cabal Ritual because the card forces you to have either extra Petals/Moxen or to also have Dark Ritual to not cost a ton of initial mana sources. In the DD builds, there is a very real chance that you can win with something like a singleton Cabal Ritual, a SDT + any other cantrip, and a Doomsday if you draw it (Petal/LED, Tendrils, chaff is the pile, or you can turn it into a normal Brainstorm pile replacing chaff in hand for LEDs or something if you drew one of those). The compromises that Doomsday builds make is on protection/cantrips, not acceleration. The average CMC is even similar:Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
The UBwg Hybrid that everyone on Storm Boards plays (Pulp_Fiction's maindeck posted recently) has a total CMC of 56 in a 60 card deck. If you don't count the 1-of Ad Nauseam, which is impossible to hit off Ad Nauseam, the total CMc is 51 in a 59 card deck. TES isn't that low (58 total CMC, 53 without AdN).
Now look at a standard Ad Nauseam list. I'll take jegger's because it's handy (and because taking a 2-3 AdN list is too easy to prove my point). He has a total CMC of 53 in a 60 card deck. Discount his 1-of Ad Nauseam and you're looking at 48 total CMC in a 59 card deck. This is 3 less than my hybrid and 5 less than TES (which nobody complains has an issue winning off Ad Nauseam, despite playing a similar number of 2s, 3s and 4s as ANT-DD).
NLS has roughly the same clock as normal ANT and doesn't have much issue with only running 5-6 Duress effects as protection. It requires tighter play in some matches than if you had Chants, and sometimes it forces you to play with Doomsday/Ad Nauseam instead of IGG to sidestep hate, but there isn't a ton of difference in results overall (some matchups, like Tempo Thresh, are a lot easier with Chant effects whereas matchups like Dreadstill put a premium on hand information since their deck is so inconsistent despite both being tempo decks). The strength of Duress/TS is hand information combined with the ability to kick your opponent while they're down (taking a Duress early to guarantee a maximum number of counters for example). Duress also requires more discipline in timing when you want to cast it because, as you mentioned, a Duress that isn't followed by a combo attempt is probably a wasted Duress. Duress gains strength when you play with Burning Wish by better enabling/protecting ETW.Quote:
Another question that bothers me: What do you think about Duress? In testing, I found it terrible. If I played it early, it didnīt really mattered since they always could refill their hand within 1-2 turns. If I tried to protect Chant with it while going off the same turn, I often got pwned by Brainstorm+Top. Itīs also bad against Tempo Decks since they usually have only 1 force but plenty of other disruption (Spell Snare,Stifle)...
I tend to play 6 Chants instead of Duress, you?
If you're running 6 chant, the only basics worth playing are Island/Plains/Mountain (if you side a lot of REBs). In the 4c/green lists I tend to play only basic Island maindeck with basic plains in the sb, but in 3c lists I'll play Island and Plains maindeck if I'm playing at least 15 lands. In 4c/red, I traditionally play a lot of Doomsdays (3ish) without Ad Nauseam maindeck (only a couple Infernal Tutor) and those lists tend toward 2 Island, 1 Plains maindeck with 6 chants and sb 6-8 REBs with a Volc and a Mountain (4 Strand, 4 Tarn, 0-1 other blue fetch).Quote:
Last Question: How important are basiclands? While we have only a few balance players, we have lots of merrows and other decks packing wasteland so I feel like I want at least 2 basics. Is that a wrong way to look at it(remember, Iīve only played LS for a long time^^)
NLS tends to run 0-1 Island and nothing else. I don't personally like Island (I opt for all Fetches/Duals) in such an aggressive deck, but some play with it replacing the 7th dual or 8th fetch. NLS plays 4 Delta/4 Tarn almost exclusively due to needing lots of URB with Green or White being light splash colors.
Well, this is a statement. I could honestly care less about the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
TES plays more artifact mana while keeping the same amount of mana sources allowing it to win easier. Where there's additional Chrome Moxen instead of lands 12-15. Another thought is 6 of that 53 (I'm taking your word for it) is Simian Spirit Guide, an initial mana source.
Just some food for thought.
About fizzling off of nauseam: Straight ANT decks sometimes run mox diamond to make nauseam better, and then they run the 3rd chrome too pretty often, TES has what, 4 c.mox, 4 petals and now (again) ssg's for initial mana sources. This is what makes it easy to fizzle when you play an aggressive early nauseam with a deck like NLS: you have usually used two or three of your initial mana sources (2 mox, 4 petal and lands) to get the nauseam off fast (turns 1 or 2), you have made your land drop: your deck now has like, 4-ish initial mana sources left. I usually start my nauseam flips with the IGG and meditate, followed up with multiples of burning wishes, so yeah - if you play incarefully you can fizzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Basically this means that when you think of going for an early nauseam, you have to make sure you float some mana (one black mana should suffice) or that you have an acceptable number of initial mana sources left in the deck.
EDIT: while i was writing, what bryant pointed out about initial mana sources is what I was trying to say. NLS and DDFT are no ad nauseam decks, and you shouldn't play them like they were, it's just another win-con among others. TES is my presonal favorite of "nauseam decks", as it's fun to play, versatile and exploits nauseam really well.
Bryant, I'm going to kiss your ass for a second, TES is probably the best built "aggro" combo deck in legacy. It is extremely fast, versatile, and resiliant. Where as NLS gets pretty much destroyed by a blue based aggro/control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
In my opinion, the only two viable storm decks are TES and the ANT/DD hybrid that pulp_fiction shared. One is extremely fast and deadly, while the other is resiliant and versatile.
Back to the discussion.
The Ad Nauseum thing doesn't work as well with NLS or ANT since it has fewer IMS after casting Ad Nauseum, which causes more fizzling
Deckcheck says 3.03 Chrome Mox and less than 1 Mox Diamond in the average ANT list. ANT lists with Mox Diamond are also likely to not play Infernal Tutor or LED at all. This means they absolutely must hit 3 Initial Mana Sources (abbreviated IMS unless I forget; thanks quicksilver) or Tendrils to win the game. Their total CMC (in a list with 3 Ad Nauseam, 4 Chrome, 2ish Mox Diamond) is generally between 56 and 62 putting them directly in line with an IT/LED list or the hybrid lists. Their flips are slightly swingier (as multiple copies of Ad Nauseam are wont to do), but they also play additional copies of Tendrils to make up for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
I find I tend to use 1-2 IMS on turn 1 and slightly fewer (0-1) on turn 2 (I use LED mana more often than Petal/CMox on turn2). I rarely go for a turn 1 kill because it's difficult to do so protected, and turn 2 kills with DD lists have the added benefit of abusing SDT to let LED pay for Ad Nauseam (which happens a lot).Quote:
you have usually used two or three of your initial mana sources (2 mox, 4 petal and lands) to get the nauseam off fast (turns 1 or 2), you have made your land drop: your deck now has like, 4-ish initial mana sources left.
TES and ANT need more initial mana sources because wining the game costs more colored mana for them. This is fine for TES, which simply plays more IMSs combined with a secondary ritual that costs less (Rite vs Cabal Rit) but ANT has some slack to make up. Hybrids are far better at using LED mana and Mystical Tutor after Ad Nauseam than either ANT or TES. When winning the game costs less colored mana, you don't need as much colored mana to start off with.
When you're trying to win the game while resolving Ad Nauseam, you need to dig into these:
With ANT:
1 IMS + Rits + Tendrils (1 IMS + 3 Mana)
1 IMS + Rits + LED + IT (1 IMS + 5 mana)
1 IMS + Rits + IGG + IT (IGG gives you hellbent) (1 IMS + 5 Mana (ability to make 6 from 2 cards))
1 IMS + Rits + LED + IGG + Mystical + BS/Ponder (1 IMS + 4 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + IT (2 IMS + 1 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + BS/Ponder + Mystical
3 IMS + Rit + Rits/LED + BS/Ponder + Mystical (3 IMS + 4 Mana)
With TES:
Everything that ANT can do
1 IMS + Rites/LEDs + Wish (1 IMS + 2 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + Rites/LEDs + Rits + Wish (2 IMS + 1-2 Mana + Rit/LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + Wish
3 IMS + Rites + Wish (3 IMS + 3 Mana, 2 IMS must be B)
With Hybrid:
Everything that ANT can do
1 IMS + Rit + Rits/LEDs + Doomsday + SDT
2 IMS + Rit + Doomsday + Brainstorm
2 IMS + Rits + Doomsday + SDT
2 IMS + Rit + Rits/LED + Mystical + SDT
1 IMS + Mystical + LEDs (with an SDT in play pre-AdN)
This is of course assuming no mana floating. In terms of winning off a resolved Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, the UBw Hybrid should be behind TES (4 extra IMS + the secondary ritual also costs 1; @bryant: total CMC determines how many cards you can draw, it has nothing to do with IMS. higher IMS count determines how many cards you need to draw to win, on average; I might work on a chart showing this relationship) but in front of ANT.
If you're complaining about flipping 1-ofs all the time, perhaps you need to play more games. Over the course of a few hundred (or maybe just a quick refresher through stats) you're likely to find that starting off with 11 in the first 4 flips is extremely unlikely.Quote:
I usually start my nauseam flips with the IGG and meditate, followed up with multiples of burning wishes, so yeah - if you play incarefully you can fizzle.
You should be doing this anyway. ANT is worse at winning with no mana floating (Rhe average on deckcheck for ANT decks is 3.03 Chrome Mox and <1 Mox Diamond btw; interestingly enough, the total CMC of the composite deck is a little over 66) than the hybrids (as illustrated above) with the critical bottlenecks being IMS and bombs. The hybrid trades, on average 1 IMS for 1 bomb (Doomsday) and extra ways to ease the bottleneck by better exploiting LED.Quote:
Basically this means that when you think of going for an early nauseam, you have to make sure you float some mana (one black mana should suffice) or that you have an acceptable number of initial mana sources left in the deck.
I have rating points, tournament reports, and can point to several top8s that strongly disagree with you. Maybe you get destroyed with NLS while playing against blue, but that just means you're, so far, worse than the rest of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
edit: I added the generalized mana needed in parens for the post-Ad Nauseam requirements. These might be useful for someone just learning Ad Nauseam who needs to recognize where to stop/how to win.
You know how long it took me to figure out what the hell you wer talking about with IMS? I just could not think of what card had the initials IMS. Then finally I realized you meant Initial Mana Source. Does anyone else hate it when people use extremely obscure acronyms? Just wastes far more time than it saves by not typing out the whole word. I mean you can just copy and paste if you are really using it that much, or at least specify somewhere what this acronym stands for, instead of just using it out of the blue.
Reminds me how in angel stompy people would always talk about "mom" and you could never figure out if they were talking about mask of memory or the nickname for mother of runes.
@Bahamuth: Thank you very much for your answer - it helped me a lot in understanding how the deck works. After few days of goldfishing I am now able to launch off the combo more consistently and often.
My next questions are about decklist, sideboard and playing around blue decks. I have collected this decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25934 with some number of cards from other lists for possible modifications.
The meta from last tournament was like that:
5x Merfolk (with white: 1)
3x Mono R burn/aggro (with goyfs: 1)
3x MBC (with rack: 1)
2x White Weenie
2x Bw Pox
2x UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
2x Counter-Top (1 with Natural Order + Progenitus)
ANT
Goblins
Bant (Supreme Blue)
Slivers
BGW Pox
Zoo
Affinity
Elves combo
UGW Dreadstill
Ideal Combo
Mono G (aggro)
Mono U (aggro-control)
Bw Aggro
Esper (aggro-control)
Is the list I've chosen proper for such meta? Should I change anything? What about its sideboard?
I also have big issues with playing with blue decks, since my meta is heavily blue - what can I do to have a chance in these matchups? Should I mulligan until I can have some sort of protection in hand? What are sideboarding techniques, what to take out and what to put in?
Thanks a lot for any advice!
P.S. I also dislike using acronyms like IMS, since they make reading really difficult for newcomers.
Okay, in relation to the other lists, which have chants, blue is harder for NLS. Destroyed is too strong of a word, but it is a much more difficult matchup than it has to be.Quote:
I have rating points, tournament reports, and can point to several top8s that strongly disagree with you. Maybe you get destroyed with NLS while playing against blue, but that just means you're, so far, worse than the rest of us.
NLS isn't a popular deck because it's decent at everything, where TES is a faster more robust deck and UBwg Hybrid is a stronger jack of all trades. It just seems subpar to the options. You're a strong player, no one is doubting that, but your deck isn't as strong as the other options.
Well Ad Nauseam is random in nature and there is no list that is going to win every single time you cast it, that is how the cards works. If you do not feel comfortable taking the occassional loss I would advise another deck. So, all of these decks have the optimal spell count (taking CC into consideration) to win off of a resolved AdN, emidln was taking about this is great detail. It is all about maximizing your mathematical chances of winning the game and thus, the more cards you reveal off AdN the greater chance you have of winning.
I think a lot of people are just casting Ad Nauseam as soon as they can and expecting to win. AdN is similar to Doomsday in that you have to set it up. Sure, turn 1 land, rit, rit AdN is going to win games. But there is nothing wrong with waiting another turn (unless you are forced to while on the play against Stax or DStompy) so you can have that extra mana drop. TES is clearly better at winning turn 1 with AdN due to the VERY high IMS count of 4 Petal, 4 CMox and SSGs but it also has a lot of cards with higher CC in it.
A big part of playing this deck is understanding how to play a combo deck. What I mean by this is truly understanding combo decks before AdN. I would highly advise anyone who is new to combo to go into the DDFT thread and build the old Street Wraith Fetchland Tendrils list from the OP and see if you can consistently get that to work. Knowing every single loop hole and trick about your deck is very important. Top adds a whole different level of difficulty to the deck and once you begin to understand how to consistently abuse these cards you will start to see additional (and much simpler) ways to win.
"Ad Nauseam is easy to play, cast it, draw deck, win". It goes a lot deeper than that and I think a lot of people just expect that his is how the deck works and it is no where near. If you truly understand how to play a combo deck those "bad Ad Nauseams" usually aren't that bad at all, and once you understand how really play combo you will be able to take advantage of this. Now if anyone has questions on how to play the deck, set up a situation, write you hand and just post in the thread about how to play it. Everyone in here will be glad to offer advice and tips on how to handle a particular situation. I think combo is the most skill testing of all archetypes in magic and there are very few set in stone play, most situations have numerous factors that come into play and had you considered them beforehand you probably would have won. Just put a list together, goldfish the hell out of it, and take it to tournaments to get experience.
@lorddotm: I totally disagree with what you said about TES but I get what you mean. A big part of success with combo is being confident in your abilites to properly play the deck. If you feel a lot more comfortable with TES against CB Thresh (any troublesome matchup) then keep playing it. Based on my experience, straight up DDFT ravages the fuck out of blue-based decks but suffers in the speed department. I think the best equipped combo list for aggro-based decks is either regular ANT, ANT Hybrid, or NLS but I personally don't like TES very much and don't play it nearly as much as I used to. I feel like all the above decks are more consistent than TES but thats because I feel very comfortable playing combo decks with Top in them and don't want to play one that lacks it and relies on 4x Ponder 4x Brainstorm for consistency. But that is me, you may feel infinitely more confident with TES which is fine. It all comes down to preference.
Well, tried the same list in a 12-player tournament but with 4 Confidants in the SB. I went 3-1 loosing to Ur Dreadstill which I would consider a pretty bad matchup. During g1 he played Balance on turn 2. I tried a top the following turn and he blindy flipped...top <.< Well, my draw was very good and so I managed to wipe away the balance and cast 2 chants during my turn, but he had 2 Forces. I went for AN at 13 life and flipped: Tendrils, IGG,IT,IT,Land,C.Rit->K.O.
Well, I boarded: +4 Confidant +3 Pyroblast +1 Rushing River
-1 AN -2 C.Mox -2 Ponder -1 C.Rit -2 I cant remember, what wouldīve been correct?
Iīd consider correct sideboarding one of the hardest things with ANT. Maybe someone could figure out what he does against the 2-3 hardest Matchups?(TT,BalanceTop, Dreadstill for example?)
So, tomorrow thereīs a 40+ tournament coming up and I expect a few Balances, many merrows and some Byes(aka random aggro).
Which build would you go for?
EDIT: I took 11 mulligans in 4 rounds, starting ONE game with 7 cards because I always had one of the three Wincons(sometimes more) and zero Initial manasources :/ Hell, Iīve almost lost to RG Beatz because I started two games at five, one at six cards -.-.
2ndEdit: What do you think about the 1-off SB Cards like: Extirpate, Hurkylls Recall, Pyroclasm, Angels Grace? Iīve never casted one of those but I kinda like the artworks :D
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
This is a good place to start. Personally don't like that sideboard, but pulp_fiction is a good player.
Looks kinda nice, but that doesnīt help me much without SB plans since I dont
know when to board additional Doomsdays(iīd suppose for aggro) and when to board EtW etc. :/
@lorddotm: Thanks man :) The board is optimized for my meta, I encounter Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Cannonist, and Teeg most often so that is why it looks as it does.
@NQN: Dark Confidant is just terrible out of the board. You can run him if you really want to but there are a lot better cards to be played. He is to slow and usually he is killed on the spot. A big part of why Swarm is run (as a 2-of against Thresh) is the threat, he resolves, you opponent can't interfere with combo turn, they lose. They don't have to answer DC immediately but Swarm is an imminent threat they have to deal with and he avoids Spell Snare :)
I know emidln was playing Extirpate in the board for a while with DDFT, but I don't remember if he liked it or not. I played it ... twice and boarded it against Dredge and Thresh but never drew it, had the opportunity to Tutor for it but there were always better cards to Tutor for. Pyroclasm is unneeded, Slaughter Pact/Chain works perfectly, and Angel's Grace is just win-more and is dead a good percentage of the time. Hurkyl's Recall is great, sometimes if a couple people in my meta do good with Stax and Stompy I stick one in the SB for the next time I play cause I will most likely be seeing those decks again.
Empty the Warrens is not necessary, at all. I run one because it makes me feel a LOT better against the people in my meta because they run some of the most jank ass cards and I have lost to Tendrils being Extirpated before from Mono-Black Rack.dec .... I just wanted an alternate kill that didn't rely on Doomsday to win. I never board in Helm and Grapeshot and don't really think it is necessary anymore in my meta. EtW comes in against decks that can't deal with it and ones that ravage you hand. Again, this is the open slot in the board, don't have to run EtW but I just feel better knowing it is there.
Your SB strategy seems fine, you were playing ANT without Doomsday correct?
Yip. Well, thanks a lot. Iīll remember then and probably give the swarms another shot.
What are the doomsday for?
The doomsdays are there against control decks, but if you don't know the piles, it is pretty much impossible for you to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
@pulp_fiction Dude, you're a beast. Plus your named is an awesome movie. Cook was the reason I played combo, but you're the reason I play Doomsday in combo :P. Plus youve always been super nice to everyone and supportive of upcoming combo players, emidln has always kind of been an ass (no offense) but an interesting read.
Yeah your board seems like it's pretty narrow, very meta'd for yourself.
Personally I run thus board:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Mox Diamond
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Silence
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Doomsday
2 Krosan Grip
It had been working pretty well.